Evidence based training vs faith based training.

[drop bear]

What Martial Arts Have to Do With Atheism

A fairly decent article on it and the pitfalls of subscribing to social pressure when it comes to training martial arts.

I am an advocate of evidence based training. And that the majority of training should be based in scientific method. But accept there is faith based training needed to get you over the line.

I feel this is a defining difference between good training and bad training.

 

[mdavidg]

Good article.

 

[Buka]

So explain the headache I have from reading this. I don't mean that in a negative way, I mean that in a "Oh, my head hurts" sort of way.

 

[mdavidg]

Sam H. just got you to think for yourself. That's why your head hurts.

 

[Chris Parker]

Yeah… no. That "article" was rather atrocious, the subject (Sam Harris? Never heard of him…) makes a huge number of false generalisations, some off-base assumptions, and overall, says little of value. The connection with atheism is tenuous at best, and seems simply shoe-horned in to provide relevance for the readership of that site, which is nothing to do with martial arts… frankly, nothing in that article would have me searching for Harris' books… I have deeper and more informed conversations with my green belts. They're also far more informed on those topics.

As to the OP, the thing that you need to get your head around, drop bear, is that you have to understand the context first…then understand what type of evidence would be appropriate… then see how it's presented and found. In other words, there's plenty of evidence for many, many arts… just not in your single perspective, one only context that you're always looking for. Seriously, open your eyes, ears, and mind, and recognise that there's a hell of a lot more to these topics than you have ever realised.

 

[drop bear]

Yeah… no. That "article" was rather atrocious, the subject (Sam Harris? Never heard of him…) makes a huge number of false generalisations, some off-base assumptions, and overall, says little of value. The connection with atheism is tenuous at best, and seems simply shoe-horned in to provide relevance for the readership of that site, which is nothing to do with martial arts… frankly, nothing in that article would have me searching for Harris' books… I have deeper and more informed conversations with my green belts. They're also far more informed on those topics.

As to the OP, the thing that you need to get your head around, drop bear, is that you have to understand the context first…then understand what type of evidence would be appropriate… then see how it's presented and found. In other words, there's plenty of evidence for many, many arts… just not in your single perspective, one only context that you're always looking for. Seriously, open your eyes, ears, and mind, and recognise that there's a hell of a lot more to these topics than you have ever realised.

There is a point in your training where you can't hide behind context. You experiment with a movement or situation and it either works or it dosent. That is the data you need to absorb.

That would be the most open minded approach.

 

[drop bear]

So explain the headache I have from reading this. I don't mean that in a negative way, I mean that in a "Oh, my head hurts" sort of way.

There is conflict in the nuances. If everything was a product of evidence the you probably couldn't adapt. You can't take a piece of information and create new information with it.

I like the idea of a core of truth. So you could start with a throw. Then hypothesise how that throw works under all sorts of conditions. On gravel in the cold while you are wearing shoes whatever. But you want that throw to be basically bullet proof before you apply it to these other circumstances.

If you don't start with that core of truth you get into trouble.

You see this in the self defence portion of almost any grading Where the self defence move must always end in success. Nobody is going to try to fail their partner. So at some stage you let the move work.

This is not a true representation of how that move works.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Some comments on what the author said

But if you're swarmed by several people at once, it becomes a problem for which no martial art has a solution.

That statement is not true. Baguazhang is training for several attackers at once. But many who train it these days, do not train it that way. However some still do.

Have you ever encountered real-world violence?

Yes, multiple attackers too. Oh and a comment on something said later. I was also in a situation that I resigned myself to as "unwinnable' for me. However winnable for those that would have had the chance to get away. Luckily I was what I saw as a threat, and it would have been in NYC, was more curiosity in Beijing and I can happily say my assessment of that situation (speaking culturally) was incorrect

Yanagi Ryuken

started to beleive his own hype, and there was not a martial artist I knew, that believed him. My statement on all "no touch knockout" cases,is that the teacher has done only one thing, "succesfully taught his students how to fall down on que"

whole cultures can change, radically and quickly

Yes, but not without some rather large impetus; Think natural disaster, war, and/or societal collapse

My opinion of the article is; Not bad, don't really get the need to connect it to Atheism, and you are better off reading things by Rory Miller

 

[Spinedoc]

Exactly, Aikido ALSO trains for and ALWAYS assumes multiple attackers. Even if you are only engaged with one, the assumption is that there is always a friend or accomplice close by.

 

[Buka]

Sam H. just got you to think for yourself. That's why your head hurts.

Think for myself? Why would I do that, I'm married.

 

[drop bear]

That statement is not true. Baguazhang is training for several attackers at once. But many who train it these days, do not train it that way. However some still do.

This always fascinated me. See I don't train with chumps. So I can barely handle one guy and quite often can't handle him. If I went against two guys in my gym I would get bashed.

(And honestly if I was silly enough to suggest it. I would get no Sympathy in regards to the outcome of that)

So where do these Baguazhang guys get these training partners from that they can handle two or three of them at once to train that?

Because for me my training environment is about getting people to a level that you couldn't mnhandle you way though a group of them.

 

[drop bear]

started to beleive his own hype, and there was not a martial artist I knew, that believed him. My statement on all "no touch knockout" cases,is that the teacher has done only one thing, "succesfully taught his students how to fall down on que"

Yeah but what do people do here?

Look at that an say there is no way that could happen to me. Now let's Baguazhang a dozen guys.

 

[Xue Sheng]

You have reading comprehension issues don't you.

This is what I said sonny

But many who train it these days, do not train it that way. However some still do.

Let ne use fewer and smaller words for you: they use to, but not much these days.... its rare.

Sorry if that goes against our reality, but that is who it was and is

This always fascinated me. See I don't train with chumps. So I can barely handle one guy and quite often can't handle him. If I went against two guys in my gym I would get bashed.

(And honestly if I was silly enough to suggest it. I would get no Sympathy in regards to the outcome of that)

So where do these Baguazhang guys get these training partners from that they can handle two or three of them at once to train that?

Because for me my training environment is about getting people to a level that you couldn't mnhandle you way though a group of them.

So then everyone who trains an art or some lace other than with you is a chump...that is interesting.....shows a bit of insecurity...but still interesting

Yeah but what do people do here?

Look at that an say there is no way that could happen to me. Now let's Baguazhang a dozen guys.

Please allow me to reiterate...this is what I said junior

But many who train it these days, do not train it that way. However some still do.

again meaning they use to, but they don't much anymore.

I tried to have a bit of a conversation with you, I should have known better. I have been on MT for over 10 years and I tend to not use the ignore list because (about to use some big words here kiddo) I feel that even those that are argumentative and annoying will have something worth reading and there has only been one person I put on my ignore list and will never take off because there is nothing that they ever posted or they were ever going to post that was worth reading.... Welcome to that list.

Now I await your pals to show up and tell me how mean I am being.

 

[geezer]

Yeah but what do people do here?

Look at that an say there is no way that could happen to me. Now let's Baguazhang a dozen guys.

Looks fun, but honestly the resolution was so bad I really wasn't sure what was going on, and I couldn't get any sound so I don't know what kind of music they were dancing to.

 

[Hanzou]

Looks fun, but honestly the resolution was so bad I really wasn't sure what was going on, and I couldn't get any sound so I don't know what kind of music they were dancing to.

Honestly 1 on 1 it doesn't look much better:

All those years of training, and you end up fighting like that?

As for the article, Harris is spot on, especially about multiple attackers. Some martial artists actually believe they can stomp multiple guys at once, when in reality they probably can't even stop one guy coming at them.

 

[drop bear]

Let ne use fewer and smaller words for you: they use to, but not much these days.... its rare.

Sorry if that goes against our reality, but that is who it was and is

So that is a YouTube video from when exactly?

Because I would say at least those guys are still training it.

 

[Xue Sheng]

So if I show you a bad video of BJJ and MMA then all BJJ and MMA people are exactly the same and do not train right and are horrible martial artists......and what part of "But many who train it these days, do not train it that way. However some still do." are you not understanding.

 

[drop bear]

I tried to have a bit of a conversation with you, I should have known better. I have been on MT for over 10 years and I tend to not use the ignore list because (about to use some big words here kiddo) I feel that even those that are argumentative and annoying will have something worth reading and there has only been one person I put on my ignore list and will never take off because there is nothing that they ever posted or they were ever going to post that was worth reading.... Welcome to that list.

Now I await your pals to show up and tell me how mean I am being.

Probably more accurately described at a bit emo rather than mean. That it is my fault you don't agree with me. Honestly it is nobodies fault. It just is.

 

[drop bear]

So if I show you a bad video of BJJ and MMA then all BJJ and MMA people are exactly the same and do not train right and are horrible martial artists...a bit of a shallow attitude based on very little data...

You do realize you are once again trying to talk like a master about styles you never trained...need I remind you about your whole Sanda post where you knew nothing buit wanted to sound like a expert of the style

If you show me an example of bad mma. It is an example of bad mma. I don't get caught up in trying to protect my ego over it. I recognise that if I am not careful I could also do bad bjj or mma.

And here is the point. This is why evidence is so important rather than being too emotionally attached to the subject to see what you are looking at.

 

[drop bear]

Honestly 1 on 1 it doesn't look much better:

All those years of training, and you end up fighting like that?

As for the article, Harris is spot on, especially about multiple attackers. Some martial artists actually believe they can stomp multiple guys at once, when in reality they probably can't even stop one guy coming at them.

Which would make sense considering you are going to train with other guys who do bazangadang. Which should be in theory the best equipped to prevent you rolling over multiples.