Everyone seems to look down on TKD...

[asoka]

Originally posted by Turner

On the topic of looking down on TKD... I've not trained in TKD, but I've taught or trained with a great deal of TKD-er's and that is where I develop my opinion: the product of their training.

Some of the most frustrating things I've dealt with is a TKD Black Belt coming to my class and having such beautiful kicks that have no purpose. I had to constantly remind most of them that I was not 7 foot tall so the kicks that they were using in self defense and combinations wouldn't work. Sure, I agree that the higher you can kick the more powerful you can kick lower, but there is a time and a place for that and its not while you are doing self defense.

Self defense is another issue; it seems that the guys I've dealt with had no concept of self defense. I had one TKD black belt take an introductory class and decide to berate me for standing in a 45 degree fighting stance saying that the side facing stance was better because it didn't offer as much of a target, so I simply shoved his lead shoulder sideways and took his back. Some of the techniques I've been shown are great for sparring and competition but would lead to a cracked skull in a real fight.

I don't like TKD/TSD/Many Forms of Karate because they are overly simplistic and seem to be geared torwards children... but that's just me. Each person has their preference and while I wouldn't study TKD/TSD and many forms of Karate doesn't mean that they don't have worth... they just aren't for me.

I completely agree with you here.I have studied Goju Ryu Karate for 12yrs.I don't regret having done it,just wish I hadn't spent as many years as I had in it.I agree that the forms in many arts are simplistic.They are highly exaggerated,I learnt this fairly late,but I guess better late then never.

Katas in a street situation is useless so why study them.

I believe however that some of the hidden techniques in some katas maybe be useful even on the street,but VERY FEW.Arts like karate would be more useful if taught in a self-defense matter instead of a bunch of pre-arranged movements across the floor .

I used to love doing katas but I'm sick of them and find them to be useless.Men/women if you do katas it's time to move on to another art in my opinion that is.

I now teach karate defense without the forms and pankration (for those who don't know-it's an art combining MuayThai kickboxing,and boxing with submission wrestling).This art teaches you balance so you can fight both stand up or on ground.

As far as TKD is concerned,I also agree their kicks look great but have no purpose.

I can't imagine someone 5"5 jumping high enough in the air to kick some one 6"6 or more in the head,especially in a real situation.Besides in the air you have no support,you are vulernable.If a person is ready to fight back,as soon as a TKD lands on the ground after a jump kick all he/she has to do is foot sweep.

In order to do those jump kicks one must spin and jump in the air,think about it for a minute,does that make sense?Personally as soon as your back were to face me,just before you jump,I'd land a punch right in the back.

Most TKD students don't even know how to land a punch or even throw one to begin with,they only know how to kick.Their legs is what they use most,it may look powerful and impressive to some people but that's what it mostly is,just fancy looking techniques with no actual use.

 

[Damian Mavis]

No offence Osaka, but I think you have a limitted knowledge base for your judgements of TKD. I can't speak for WTF (olympic style) but in ITF our style is similar to kickboxing (note the boxing part) We punch and kick and yes that is by itself limitting....but so are most arts that choose one area to specialise in (Judo, Ju jitsu, boxing, even Muay Thai which I love) I know nothing about your art... but if your instructor is anything like me, he is teaching a well rounded arsenal of martial techniques. If you watched my TKD class on a certain night you might think it was a weapons based art or a shoot fighting art. Anyway point is I agree with you, theres alot of bad TKD schools, but so is there bad karate and kungfu....you just get lucky if you go to a good one.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

 

[Goldendragon7]

Unfortunately the bad news seems to travel much faster than the good. There are an awful lot a crummy studios out there of all styles.

Being a Kenpo stylist myself....... I get disgusted with some that put up the Kenpo name. TKD due to sheer numbers and the Korean Invasion of the mid to late 70's didn't do any good for them either.

As always.... the man makes the art not the reverse. However when the man has a complete curriculum as well he is king.

:asian:

 

[Bystander]

Perhaps the only way for TKD to really be respected as a formidable method of self defense is to have more TKD practioners join and be successful in mixed martial art tournaments, such as Ultimate Fighting Championship. Maybe if people see that one of the UFC champions proclaims himself to be a TKD person instead of Muay Thai, Valle Tudo, Submissions, Jiu Jitsu, even boxing practitioner.... then maybe then TKD would get more respect.


Come to think of it, I guess the same would go for any type of matial art that doesn't get respect. Perhaps we would see a new respect and growth for Sumo wrestling as a valid form of self defense if we get a Sumo wrestler to win the UFC.

 

[Goldendragon7]

Now that's a thought!

 

[RCastillo]

Originally posted by Bystander

Perhaps the only way for TKD to really be respected as a formidable method of self defense is to have more TKD practioners join and be successful in mixed martial art tournaments, such as Ultimate Fighting Championship. Maybe if people see that one of the UFC champions proclaims himself to be a TKD person instead of Muay Thai, Valle Tudo, Submissions, Jiu Jitsu, even boxing practitioner.... then maybe then TKD would get more respect.


Come to think of it, I guess the same would go for any type of matial art that doesn't get respect. Perhaps we would see a new respect and growth for Sumo wrestling as a valid form of self defense if we get a Sumo wrestler to win the UFC.

I think TKD got wind of your thought, at the ITF, anyway. I noticed that they've added more self defense requirements, especially at the lower ranks. They also have separate courses against knife attacks. :asian:

 

[asoka]

Originally posted by Bystander

Perhaps the only way for TKD to really be respected as a formidable method of self defense is to have more TKD practioners join and be successful in mixed martial art tournaments, such as Ultimate Fighting Championship. Maybe if people see that one of the UFC champions proclaims himself to be a TKD person instead of Muay Thai, Valle Tudo, Submissions, Jiu Jitsu, even boxing practitioner.... then maybe then TKD would get more respect.


Come to think of it, I guess the same would go for any type of matial art that doesn't get respect. Perhaps we would see a new respect and growth for Sumo wrestling as a valid form of self defense if we get a Sumo wrestler to win the UFC.

No offense bud,but TKD and most other Traditional Asian Arts wouldn't last even a minute in UFC.When a student is used to doing katas all the time,you can't expect them to go into something aggressive and win,without any actual full contact sparring.When I say full contact I do mean no pulling back on punches or kicks,just going for it using martial arts,which most styles don't know how to do.

Why do you think you never hear of any Karate,Kung Fu or Tae Kwon Do entering UFC unless they have taken other styles too,such as grappling?The styles that always seem to win are the Pankration,Shooto fighting and Jujitsu practitioners.To win in Ufc you basically have to know how to grapple or do both grappling and stand up.Those jump arsenal kicks done in TKD would never work in UFC.

I am yet to see a TKD or other Traditional Asian art in UFC.Now that would be funny to see.They'd get their *** kick.Face it,it's the truth.

 

[Goldendragon7]

is all in the training and conditioning for the specific event. If a person trains for baseball and enters a basketball tournament...... he may lose as you say very badly....... so you must compare apples to apples.

Never take a knive to a gunfight!

:asian:

 

[Kirk]

Originally posted by asoka




No offense bud,but TKD and most other Traditional Asian Arts wouldn't last even a minute in UFC.When a student is used to doing katas all the time,you can't expect them to go into something aggressive and win,without any actual full contact sparring.When I say full contact I do mean no pulling back on punches or kicks,just going for it using martial arts,which most styles don't know how to do.

Why do you think you never hear of any Karate,Kung Fu or Tae Kwon Do entering UFC unless they have taken other styles too,such as grappling?The styles that always seem to win are the Pankration,Shooto fighting and Jujitsu practitioners.To win in Ufc you basically have to know how to grapple or do both grappling and stand up.Those jump arsenal kicks done in TKD would never work in UFC.

I am yet to see a TKD or other Traditional Asian art in UFC.Now that would be funny to see.They'd get their *** kick.Face it,it's the truth.

Funny ... I've personally seen knock outs in the UFC happen
from roundhouse kicks to the head.

 

[RCastillo]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7

is all in the training and conditioning for the specific event. If a person trains for baseball and enters a basketball tournament...... he may lose as you say very badly....... so you must compare apples to apples.

Never take a knive to a gunfight!

:asian:

Perfect anaology. Like when Michael Jordan tried to do the baseball thing. No one will doubt he is a great athlete, but it doesn't carry over like that where it's one sport,to another! Not w/o the work, and process.:asian:

 

[Goldendragon7]

:asian:

 

[asoka]

Originally posted by Damian Mavis

No offence Osaka, but I think you have a limitted knowledge base for your judgements of TKD. I can't speak for WTF (olympic style) but in ITF our style is similar to kickboxing (note the boxing part) We punch and kick and yes that is by itself limitting....but so are most arts that choose one area to specialise in (Judo, Ju jitsu, boxing, even Muay Thai which I love) I know nothing about your art... but if your instructor is anything like me, he is teaching a well rounded arsenal of martial techniques. If you watched my TKD class on a certain night you might think it was a weapons based art or a shoot fighting art. Anyway point is I agree with you, theres alot of bad TKD schools, but so is there bad karate and kungfu....you just get lucky if you go to a good one.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

I agree 100% with you for the fact that there are bad karate and kung fu too.There are bad schools in every style,however I wasn't talking about any bad school,just not so good style.Some schools are good because they are good at what they know and got at teaching it,but that doesn't mean the stuff they know and teach is of any use in self-defense.

I'm sure TKD has some useful techniques just as karate does,but very few.Yes we learn lots of martial arts techniques.Pankration teaches how to punch(hooks,uppercuts,jabs,and right cross--just like in boxing)kicks using shins and knees,elbows(straight,across and downwards)we also learn to throw,flip,sweep,wrestle from both stand up and ground,shoot in on kicks or punches,pressure points,positioning from guard,side body,reverse side body and mount,reversals etc.so I'd have to say that's pretty well rounded.More advanced then other arts.This art is very similar to shooto fighting.

In karate although I did lots of katas ,I did learn some useful moves hidden within the katas like any asian traditional arts,but with arts like this only 40% of techniques would work compared to 95% in styles like Pankration,shooto,savate, boxing, wrestling, jujitsu,judo among a few others.

I am going by my 15yrs. experience in martial arts.My opinion is also based on what I have read, seen of other arts both as demonstrations and in competitions.

I agree any art on its own is limited,however there are some arts that just are simply pointless as far as self-defense is concerned and I'd have to say most of those are Traditional Asian Arts.

I know muay thai is also asian and considered traditional but it doesn't waste time with katas,making the art more realistic and when combined with grappling it becomes even more effective and realistic.It's combination basically turns each style into street fighting defense instead of just your usual martial arts.

Muay Thai on its own is considered one of the most devastating arts in the world so imagine what it is like when combined with grappling like submission wrestling.

 

[Damian Mavis]

"Muay Thai on its own is considered one of the most devastating arts in the world so imagine what it is like when combined with grappling like submission wrestling."

Thankfully, I don't have to imagine. I train in that and shooto and brazillian jujitsu. Your right it works out pretty good.....but I gotta say Osaka.....I think your going through a stage of development every martial artist goes through at one point in their development. The "OMG I'm taking the ultimate art and everything else sucks!" stage. heh Ya thats kinda a joke but your preaching to the choir while at the same time getting your facts wrong. Every martial artist who puts in the years you have and is serious about it comes to similar conclusions only not as one sided as yours.

For those of you wondering about TKD in the UFC it's been done...remember the monster named Kimo (the guy with the giant tatoo of jesus christ on his back) that pummelled Royce Gracie so bad he had to be carried out of the octagon and couldn't continue the championship even though Kimo himself was unhurt? His only credit when they posted his MA training was to TKD

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

 

[fist of fury]

Oh goody another UFC vs Tradtional debate. :shrug:

 

[Bystander]

Originally posted by Damian Mavis

For those of you wondering about TKD in the UFC it's been done...remember the monster named Kimo (the guy with the giant tatoo of jesus christ on his back) that pummelled Royce Gracie so bad he had to be carried out of the octagon and couldn't continue the championship even though Kimo himself was unhurt? His only credit when they posted his MA training was to TKD

I remember that fight. Kimo was an excellent fighter that just kept going even after some direct punches to his crotch during the ground fight. Kimo was an amazing fighter during the early years of UFC back when plain unskilled tough guys like Tank Abbot were able to do well. If I remember correctly, Royce Gracie did win that match via submission, but he was too fatigued to continue. This happened quite often in the early UFC years, and they no longer do multiple fights per day per person anymore. Currently, the UFC is in its 30-somethingth iteration, and just about everyone fights the same(Pancration or the likes). Royce Gracie blew the martial arts world on its side by his overall consistent victories against many larger opponents of various disciplines. A lot has changed since then. The contestants have had many iterations of watching previous UFCs and fight studying to refine their techniques in this feeform fighting tournament. Strength and Toughness take a back seat to technique in these tournaments, currently. If you watch the recent UFCs with Tito Ortiz and the such, you will notice that there are no TKD practioners fighting anymore. The closest I've seen is a Kenpo guy in recent times. In the past, there were a fair share of Kung Fu, Karate, and TKD people in the ring. These people were professional fighters who trained just as hard as a boxer would in their art... but for some reason, you don't see guys like this anymore. Also, I have yet to see any flying kick combinations performed during a UFC bout.

My experiences and observations with TKD have brought me to view TKD as a sport more than a mode of self-defense. It is an activity to teach kids discipline and offer competitive and relatively safe point-based tournament opportunities.... like fencing. Doing TKD on a regular basis is enough to give you an edge if you were to defend yourself against a person of equal strength who was untrained in any fight science. That combined with its tenents of honor and integrity (I, too was once ITF), I see TKD as a good thing to have around to introduce people to the world of martial arts. I've gone through a transition, lately, where I want to find out more about myself by seeing how far I can go and how far I can push myself. My views might be a result of the limited field of vision that one person is restricted to, but I'm at a point in my life where I need something more than what TKD could offer me. Something without uniforms to wear and forms to memorize and retain, where the emphasis in my training goes directly into what I am training for. I train for myself, not my teacher, not the class... and I don't need to wear a uniform and memorize forms to better myself ... I know who I am, and I know exactly what I want and why I train. I train to better myself physically, mentally, and spiritually... I don't train to be the most bad-assed fighter there ever was. I will never be that. On the road to wanting to become the best version of myself that I can be, I've given up the TKD route and moved to a more freestyle school that does train their students to enter mixed martial art competitions. If there is anything I can credit to my TKD training that began as a 7-year-old kid, I would say it has given me a foundation of morality and honor to complement my ability to hurt people, well that and my flexibility and moderate conditioning, but that is all. I'm at that point in the life of a martial artist where my path is now unpaved, and I am guiding my own journey not knowing where it will take me. Since my exit from the TKD world, I changed from a big fish in a small pond (in terms of skill and abilities) to a moderate fish in a very large pond. I am actually learning things again and finding bad habits during sparring that I never would have known if I stayed in TKD. That's my story and my 2 cents... I feel better letting this out and sorry if I went off topic or offended anyone. I try not to offend, but I see this forum as place to tell truths that may change opinions of those that did not have my experiences. Maybe it's my opinion that will change.

 

[Shadowdean]

What exactly is ment by "technique will work?" Will the technique work in a full contact martial arts environment, in the street? Those are two very different situations. Your not going to gouge out someone's eyeballs in any full contact competition, shoot them, stab them, bash their head onto the pavement, etc. Your not going to strike the throat, back of the neck, spine, etc. These are techniques taught in most "traditional" schools. Those are effective (I rather be in an arm-bar then someone using a knife-hand on my throat). Maybe if street fights were televied and we saw mma going to the ground, then getting stomped by another person who enters the fray, the world would have a different view of traditional martial artists.

 

[asoka]

Originally posted by Kempojujutsu



I believe there two main reasons people look down at TKD.

1. The amount of time it takes one to get Black Belt is around 2 years. One has to remember you are trying to compare apples to Oranges. Tae Kwon Do has limited amount of techniques up to Black Belt. My main competitor is a ATA school, so I bought a book on TKD to get some insight and to see what they teach. Now I know they may not teach exactly what is in this book but it may be close. Here is what is listed in this book for white belt up to 1st Black. 9 Hand strike, 12 kicks, 7 forms, 8 self defense techniques, 20 offensive sparring techniques, 20 defensive techniques, 6 board breaking techniques, and rules. No wonder it only takes 2 years to get to Black Belt. You compare this with Ju Jutsu, Kung Fu, or any Japanese Martial Arts, you may have up to 1,000 different techniques. This just goes to show why it may take some one 4 years or more to reach Black Belt. The more material an Martial Art has the longer it takes to reach Black Belt.

2. Someone goes into a TKD school and sees an 8 year old Black Belt teaching a New adult student. This has happen to one of my friends, and was a major turn-off for her. Adults don't want to be taught by some young kid. Most adult are learning Martial Arts, for self defense 1st and getting in shape 2nd. Most kids have no concept of what self defense is, exspecially for adults. It's not like some typical school yard fight, pop someone in the mouth fights over and you are best friend with the person. With adults alot of fights someone is drunk/high. More times a weapon may come into play. Here recently kids have shown us this also. Most of us that teach both kids and adults teach them differently. In what we show and 8 year old compared to some 25 year old woman. With this I don't think kids should be teaching adults. But that is one thing some TKD schools do. I believe they do this so they don't have to pay for some adult instrutor.

Bob Thomas
:asian:

YAHHHHHHHHHHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO,someone that I can actually agree with in this post.I totally agree,that no child should be able to have a black belt.I definitely wouldn't want to be taught by some 8 yr.old. Why be taught by someone who's *** you know you can kick,even without your martial arts?
I too have seen black belt kids in many TKD schools as well other traditional asian arts.

I think the reason instructors give kids or teens black belts is for confidence,however I think it is wrong because it gives them fake confidence not reality.

I have heard of kids with black belts who think they're tough and try and start a fight and even brag about being a black belt and then next thing you know they're on their *** by someone who has never done martial arts but is older,bigger and stronger.

I don't teach children same thing I teach adults and definitely won't give them any black belt until they are at least 18,either way they have to have really earned it and prove they are worth that belt.

 

[asoka]

Originally posted by Damian Mavis

"Muay Thai on its own is considered one of the most devastating arts in the world so imagine what it is like when combined with grappling like submission wrestling."

Thankfully, I don't have to imagine. I train in that and shooto and brazillian jujitsu. Your right it works out pretty good.....but I gotta say Osaka.....I think your going through a stage of development every martial artist goes through at one point in their development. The "OMG I'm taking the ultimate art and everything else sucks!" stage. heh Ya thats kinda a joke but your preaching to the choir while at the same time getting your facts wrong. Every martial artist who puts in the years you have and is serious about it comes to similar conclusions only not as one sided as yours.

For those of you wondering about TKD in the UFC it's been done...remember the monster named Kimo (the guy with the giant tatoo of jesus christ on his back) that pummelled Royce Gracie so bad he had to be carried out of the octagon and couldn't continue the championship even though Kimo himself was unhurt? His only credit when they posted his MA training was to TKD

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

Cool,shooto is a very powerful and effective art just as Pankration is.

Actually bud,I'm not going through any transitional stage at all,don't need to,just going by my experience.I never once said anyone should change to my art,just stated an opinion.

I never once said other arts suck,I said they aren't as effective and that katas are useless and that for most arts the self-defense is pointless,but that doesn't mean I hate all other arts.
Think about it bud,wouldn't make sense if I hated other arts,I did an asian traditional art for 12yrs.with no regret.Well I regret how long I stayed with that one art but I don't regret ever having done it.

I learnt alot from karate,without karate I wouldn't be able to compare it to another art.Infact karate gave me good eye co-ordination,balance,posture,focus,however it screwed up my knees from all those damn stances like shicko dachi (horse stance),cat stance,sanchin stance ,etc..That's another reason ,I never mentioned for why I am against katas,with those stances they do more damage then good.

The more strain you have on your body the harder it is to move and then the less effective of a fighter you become.

"A man who can't stand can't fight."

If I had never done karate or any type of art to begin with I wouldn't know the self-defense I know now,and by doing different arts I have opened my mind to what's available and gain more knowledge by learning as much as I can.But it has also taught me to recognize what is some what useful and what is very useful.

I can recognize what art is more effective then another.Even if I find Pankration more useful and effective as I have mentioned in other messages,as you have seen,I never said I didn't learn anything at all doing a traditional asian art,I just said what I find to be better,more effective and why.Doesn't mean I expect everyone else to,I expect people to disagree and some to perhaps agree with me.Hell if you are happy with your art by all means stick to it.

Even if I find that most hidden techniques in katas are useless,I still did learn some that could be useful,just very few.That few still helps.Every bit of knowledge in M.A helps to lead to better and more advanced skills.

Despite everything you've probably seen me write about M.A it's not meant to be taken as insults,even if some do take it that way.Infact I respect martial artists of all styles.If they enjoy and believe in what they really do,all the power to them that's great.I was just trying to inform people with what "I" find to be important and true knowledge of martial arts and share my experience.I wasn't expecting everyone to agree,I knew not everyone would.

I am also interested in what others have to say.I don't come here to waste my time trying to start fights if that's what you think.


Ya I remember that guy with the jesus tattoo on his back,that's actually pretty funny.

Actually of what I remember TKD was not his only credit in M.A he also had experience in MuayThai or some type of kickbxing,it could have been American Kickboxing,anyways and he also had experience in grappling,as most UFC participants do,of what I remember that is.Perhaps I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure he knew more then just TKD.

 

[asoka]

Originally posted by arnisador

In TKD one is often told to fully lock out the knee on kicks, which is believed to be damaging to the knees in the long run. In karate it's common to be told to only extend the knee 90-95%.

I disagree,when I was in karate we were also taught to fully lock our knees on kicks,not just 90-95%

 

[asoka]

Originally posted by Turner

No, there is no way that I could judge everyone according to what I've seen and experienced. I'm yound, but I am wise enough to know that there are exceptions to every rule and sometimes the rule is not really what we expect it to be. I just know that in my area... A tiny city... has about ten TKD classes and all of them are pretty worthless. I'm well travelled <moved over 30 times in my life> and I've never seen a TKD school that I like, but I'm sure that there are some out there that are quite awesome. I wouldn't want to give the impression that I'm style bashing... just saying that <I> didn't like what I saw and the style is not for me.

Same with me,I've never seen a TKD school I liked either,but I'm sure there must be some that are alright,but I have to admit TKD is one of the last martial arts styles I'd ever do,even if I were to go back to traditional asian arts,which won't happen that is.

In a few years I may even try Aikido and Arnis or I might even do it soon while also training in Pankration,since I'm already 33.