Empty Hand & Knife

[Vajramusti]

Folks often misunderstand wing chun. And also they go cherry picking going fro rather than going deep with a good system.
Wing chun is nota collection od techniques Good wing chun trains and unites the body and mind. And there
a steps to go from principles and adjusting in applications to what is at hand. It would be foolish to apply empty hand techniques to facing knives. You have to have a sense of the shape and size of the knives.

WT guys including Steve use escrima to supplement their wing chun. I don't but I can use non wing chun knives and sticks using wing chun trained body unification.

Lots of folks just go through the movement of the forms and don't have the structural details and dynamics

WSL actually used bjd in a challenge encounter against a fencer and came out well.

 

[Danny T]

I'm beginning to think he believes there should be absolutely no difference in the moves and the placement of the move on the opponent's body. That is why I asked about going against the pole the techniques (the moves) can be the same but the application will be different simply because of range. At 9 feet away one could qua sao the pole but never get near the body to attack it without using completely different footwork vs someone in punching range.

 

[KPM]

KPM



Have you trained against the pole and the BJD?
Do you defend against them in the exact specific way as you do an empty hand?
Movement is the technique, how one applies the movement is what is important.

Master Wong, hmm, he is comical. Like Joy I don't do the Wong way and from what I have read of your post I you don't either.

Yes, I have trained against the pole and the short swords. I have even trained against the western Longsword, and tactical folders, and sword & buckler, and machete, etc. And no, it was not the same technique as I do empty hand. That has been my point!!!! If I was doing a system that was specifically designed to defend against these weapons, then the technique WOULD HAVE been almost the same as my empty hand technique. That is the point I have been trying to make.

Wing Chun was not SPECIFICALLY designed with defending against a knife in mind. It was designed to fight against an unarmed opponent. Can it be adapted to defending against a knife, or any weapon for that matter? Of course it can! But that is not the same as saying that it is "all about defending against the knife." How can I make that point any clearer?

Heck, it can be adapted for defending against a handgun as well. Does that mean that "Wing Chun is all about defending against handguns"???

 

[KPM]

The difference being he stripped the knife and held the arm?

Or have I missed something?

Yes. Watch any of Wong's other videos that don't involve a knife. He won't mess around with controlling the attacking arm. He'll just deflect the attack and go right to striking to the head and/or body. Like I pointed out at the start of this thread, empty-hand methods that are designed to face a knife will have multiple beat parries to ensure that the knife-wielding arm is controlled. They will often use joints locks or limb destructions and often use angling footwork to get off of the line of attack. You typically find all of this as key elements of FMA empty-hand methods, because that is how the empty-hand methods first developed...as ways to defend yourself when you have dropped your own weapon or been disarmed in combat.

 

[geezer]

WT guys including Steve use escrima to supplement their wing chun. I don't but I can use non wing chun knives and sticks using wing chun trained body unification.

Actually Joy, I never felt WC/WT needed FMA, I just had a personal fascination with Eskrima going back to the 70s. I was the one who got Rene Latosa to connect with our US branch of LT's WT ...and I admit that I was being a little cagey, banking on the fact that Latosa had a strong relationship with the EWTO to persuade my old sifu to permit me (as his disciple) to openly study a second art. As I predicted, he wasn't happy about it, but because of his previous relationship with Rene in Europe, ...he allowed it.

Anyway, what I learned after enough time in Rene's PMAS system, then in DTE and my own PCE group, is that there comes a point where I'm expressing the same concepts in both arts. In other words, it isn't a case of using Eskrima to prop up deficiencies in WT, but rather expressing the same forward intent, springy-energy and efficiency to make both arts work better. If we can ever get together again, I'll buy breakfast at Harlow's and afterwards see if I can't demo what I'm talking about. Assuming I don't eat too much.

 

[KPM]

This is how I started this thread:
"On another recent thread it was stated that Wing Chun "is all about defending against a blade" and that Wing Chun assumes the striking hand is holding a knife. I don't see it that way at all. But would you guys care to elaborate?"

I'm still waiting for some "elaboration" other than "sifu sez." I have explained why I don't see it that way. But wckf92 and Danny, neither of you have said why you DO see it that way....other than just repeating that this is how you see it.

Hopefully you are following my logic. I'll try one more time.

In most traditional FMAs, you can learn a knife drill sequence back and forth with a partner. Then one partner can drop the knife and do pretty much the exact same sequence without his blade but rather as an empty hand defense against the knife. Now the second partner can drop his knife and throw an empty hand strike instead and the sequence will still work pretty much the same. To another art, like Wing Chun, this may appear to be inefficient because it seems to contain extra beats or extra control methods. The Wing Chun guy might say "why are you do all that extra motion? Just hit him!!!" I've seen this response from Wing Chun guys more than once! But this is because the majority of FMA empty hand methods truly assume that the attacking limb is holding a knife. Even Panantukan, which is more modern evolution that has blended western boxing methods with traditional FMA empty-hands, will still have a lot of these features that goes back to the weapons.

For an even more modern example....Michael Janich's "Martial Blade Concepts" system starts with the knife. But he also has an empty-hand method called "Counter Blade Concepts." This is all empty-hand against the knife. Can it work against an unarmed attacker? Sure it can! But anyone that knows the knife would look at it applied against an empty-hand attacker and know right away that this method was truly "all about defending against a blade."

So the logic here is simple. Any empty-hand martial art that is "all about defending against the knife" and that assumes the striking hand is holding a knife will have key features and characteristics. These key features and characteristics will still be recognizable when the method is used against empty-hand attacks. I've listed the key features multiple times already. These systems will also spend just as much or more time training to use the knife as they do empty-hands and typically see their empty-hand methods as secondary to the weapons training. I don't see any of this in Wing Chun. If you train your Wing Chun this way, then great! I want to hear more about it! But you would be a special case and not at typical of Wing Chun in general.

It is somewhat frustrating to try and discuss something if people are unwilling to follow logical points and seek to counter or refute those points with logical reasoned discussion of their own. So unless someone has something of value to say, I'm done.

 

[Vajramusti]

Actually Joy, I never felt WC/WT needed FMA, I just had a personal fascination with Eskrima going back to the 70s. I was the one who got Rene Latosa to connect with our US branch of LT's WT ...and I admit that I was being a little cagey, banking on the fact that Latosa had a strong relationship with the EWTO to persuade my old sifu to permit me (as his disciple) to openly study a second art. As I predicted, he wasn't happy about it, but because of his previous relationship with Rene in Europe, ...he allowed it.

Anyway, what I learned after enough time in Rene's PMAS system, then in DTE and my own PCE group, is that there comes a point where I'm expressing the same concepts in both arts. In other words, it isn't a case of using Eskrima to prop up deficiencies in WT, but rather expressing the same forward intent, springy-energy and efficiency to make both arts work better. If we can ever get together again, I'll buy breakfast at Harlow's and afterwards see if I can't demo what I'm talking about. Assuming I don't eat too much.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Yup Steve-
will be happy to do the Harlow's and post Harlow thing.

 

[Danny T]

KPM,

I am not in a contest with you sir.

I have stated my position. You disagree, fine.

I have stated that many of the moves and positions in wing chun are the same moves and positions utilized in the FMA I train in. Most of the principles within both of them are identical. Most of the concepts are identical. The applications of some of the movements and positions are different (in the FMA I am studying and teaching).

Nuances make some differences however they are minor simply because of range. My follow ups may be tweaked because the knife is there same as if the BJD were there. In the FMA I train we move the centerline, make contact with the attacking limb and strike the core. In wing chun we move the centerline if that is the best thing to do at the time make contact and strike the core. If another punch is coming it is addressed by the proper arm movement and positioning. If it were a knife we would do the same thing. You asked if I would use a tan sao or a gong sao… yes ‘if’ it were the appropriate action for what the attacker is giving me.

You are comparing wing chun to the FMA as a whole and that can be a good comparison when look at from a single perspective. The FMA is not the absolute and definitive standard for knife defense though it is excellent. And wc is also an excellent knife defense system in my opinion. Using your standard of FMA for knife defensive systems what about those stick only systems and their grabbing of the stick. Yeah those FMA systems are great for the fingers and arms. And yet, yes they are when trained as a bladed system.

You disagree with my assessment of the wc system, Ok.
Continue to train in the manner you train with your mindset of wing chun being a striking system
I will continue to train in the manner I train with my mindset of wing chun being a bladed weapon defensive system.

It’s all good on my end.

 

[wckf92]

KPM,

I am not in a contest with you sir.

I have stated my position. You disagree, fine.

I have stated that many of the moves and positions in wing chun are the same moves and positions utilized in the FMA I train in. Most of the principles within both of them are identical. Most of the concepts are identical. The applications of some of the movements and positions are different (in the FMA I am studying and teaching).

Nuances make some differences however they are minor simply because of range. My follow ups may be tweaked because the knife is there same as if the BJD were there. In the FMA I train we move the centerline, make contact with the attacking limb and strike the core. In wing chun we move the centerline if that is the best thing to do at the time make contact and strike the core. If another punch is coming it is addressed by the proper arm movement and positioning. If it were a knife we would do the same thing. You asked if I would use a tan sao or a gong sao… yes ‘if’ it were the appropriate action for what the attacker is giving me.

You are comparing wing chun to the FMA as a whole and that can be a good comparison when look at from a single perspective. The FMA is not the absolute and definitive standard for knife defense though it is excellent. And wc is also an excellent knife defense system in my opinion. Using your standard of FMA for knife defensive systems what about those stick only systems and their grabbing of the stick. Yeah those FMA systems are great for the fingers and arms. And yet, yes they are when trained as a bladed system.

You disagree with my assessment of the wc system, Ok.
Continue to train in the manner you train with your mindset of wing chun being a striking system
I will continue to train in the manner I train with my mindset of wing chun being a bladed weapon defensive system.

It’s all good on my end.

A nice wrap-up.

 

[KPM]

That's fine Danny. Just be careful about blanket statements, because someone will ask you to back it up! ;-) And be careful about implying that your Wing Chun has "evolved" while others haven't. Just going from what you've said, if I saw your Wing Chun I doubt I would consider it to be "all about defending against the knife." My guess is that it would look like pretty standard Wing Chun. But to each his own.

 

[geezer]

That's fine Danny. Just be careful about blanket statements, because someone will ask you to back it up! ;-) And be careful about implying that your Wing Chun has "evolved" while others haven't. Just going from what you've said, if I saw your Wing Chun I doubt I would consider it to be "all about defending against the knife." My guess is that it would look like pretty standard Wing Chun. But to each his own.

It might look standard, and it might look really bizarre... until we get him to post a video we'll never know. What's worse, well be back to watching Futsao's videos. I want to see something completely different!

BTW @DANNY: You had me pegged. I absolutely do not know how to post a video. I don't even make videos ...yet.

 

[Danny T]

That's fine Danny. Just be careful about blanket statements, because someone will ask you to back it up! ;-) And be careful about implying that your Wing Chun has "evolved" while others haven't.

I don't believe I implied that at all. I stated in post #13;
"WC evolved as all good martial systems do. They will continue to evolve unless the practitioner masses refuse to evolve. Why were the pole and swords added to the system? Just because, was it an afterthought, or was it because the systems practitioners saw a need for it. They must have been encountering the pole or staffs and bladed weapons. I didn't say wc started out as an bladed system. I wasn't there but I am willing to bet that those who were using it found a need to protect themselves against objects other than just an opponent's fist and feet."
With examples of the addition of the pole and the swords the implication here is that Wing Chun, the system, evolved not just mine.

You made the remark in post 28:
"Ah! So you are saying that YOUR Wing Chun has been "evolved" to be centered around dealing with weapons? That is very different! That is not the same as making a blanket statement that "Wing Chun is all about dealing with weapons."
My original statement about wc and bladed weapons was "I believe WC is all about defending against a bladed weapon."

Just going from what you've said, if I saw your Wing Chun I doubt I would consider it to be "all about defending against the knife." My guess is that it would look like pretty standard Wing Chun. But to each his own.

Oh I'm certain you will find something different about it. Everyone's wc is different in some way or another and I'm far from being near the standard as to what great is but I agree with you on that it would look rather standard. Never said it was different. I stated I use the same movements and positions in rather the same manner. Intercept the movement, maintain a springy forward pressure, protect the line, attack the core. Yeah I'm sure it is rather standard.

 

[Danny T]

It might look standard, and it might look really bizarre... until we get him to post a video we'll never know.

Bizarre... seems some of my thoughts on wc are, maybe my wc does look bizarre but I hope not.

BTW @DANNY: You had me pegged. I absolutely do not know how to post a video. I don't even make videos ...yet.

Well you are still ahead of me. You posted the above video and I have no idea as how to do that.
I had one of my students video me doing a quick demo vs an empty hand punch attack to the mid section and one with a midsection knife thrust attack similar to the video posted earlier for comparison but I don't know how to post it here.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Bizarre... seems some of my thoughts on wc are, maybe my wc does look bizarre but I hope not.

Well you are still ahead of me. You posted the above video and I have no idea as how to do that.
I had one of my students video me doing a quick demo vs an empty hand punch attack to the mid section and one with a midsection knife thrust attack similar to the video posted earlier for comparison but I don't know how to post it here.

The easiest way to post your video is to upload it to YouTube and embed the video here. PM me if you want me to walk you through the steps.

 

[KPM]

Ok. Simple question. This is pretty typical Wing Chun. Would you do this if that was a quick thrust with a knife rather than a jab?

 

[KPM]

How about this one? Would you do the same if this was a slash with a knife rather than a hook punch?

 

[KPM]

Just to be clear what I am saying.......The above videos are pretty standard Wing Chun technique. This is technique and strategy clearing designed to deal with an unarmed striking opponent. If you did this same thing against someone armed with a knife it would get you killed. So you cannot say that Wing Chun always assumes the striking arm is holding a knife. You cannot say Wing Chun is "all about defending against the knife" because the default setting would be something that actually worked against a knife! Neither of the techniques above would work against a knife. You can say that Wing Chun is adaptable and can be performed successfully specifically with knife defense in mind. But this is much different from implying that knife defense is the central thing about Wing Chun. At least Wing Chun in general! If you have changed your Wing Chun to be "knife-centric", then I would love to see it in action! Because it should different from the Wing Chun in the videos above! It should different than just about everyone's Wing Chun! ;-)

 

[wckf92]

Ok. Simple question. This is pretty typical Wing Chun. Would you do this if that was a quick thrust with a knife rather than a jab?

Nope

 

[wckf92]

How about this one? Would you do the same if this was a slash with a knife rather than a hook punch?

No. (But I don't really agree with how he employs his wc tools wrt that attack. His tan is located incorrectly imho

 

[wckf92]

...you cannot say that Wing Chun always assumes the striking arm is holding a knife. You cannot say Wing Chun is "all about defending against the knife" because the default setting would be something that actually worked against a knife!

The Wing Chun Policeman Has Spoken!


Just joking around KPM. It's clear your mind is adamant on your position, and that's fine. The first video you posted was WC???
Weird drill if so.
Second video...I would agree with you that Peterson would have been cut or killed if partner was wielding a knife. He also would have possibly eaten that hook.
Just my .02
Peace