Empty Hand & Knife

[yak sao]

Danny, I do not know if you ever post videos of yourself or students, but if you do, I'd really appreciate seeing some of your basic WC drills with or against knives. If not, maybe a description?

That would be interesting

 

[geezer]

I can attempt to. To be honest I don't know how post a video. I could e-mail it to you. I know how to do that.
Get me your e-mail address and I'll get something to you in the next few days. How about that?

Nope. We gotta figure out how to post it ....or else email it to somebody who knows how to and can do it for you. I mean, sure I'd like to feel special and all, getting it emailed just to me but really it would be so much better if we could further this discussion, So ... Listen up, y'all! Who can help Sifu Danny post a video? PM him and help him out!!!

 

[Danny T]

LOL, I assume that means you don't know how either.

 

[drop bear]

LOL, I assume that means you don't know how either.

I threw mine on YouTube last time and just linked it.

 

[Blindside]

I can throw it up on my youtube channel if you can send me the file.

 

[KPM]

Ok.
There is a FMA system which is a bladed system that until being brought to the U.S. the bladed aspect wasn't taught until after learning most all of the footwork, having a high level of understanding of empty hand work, and most of the stick work. The master who brought it to the U.S. and since to many other areas of the world trained in the system under the head of the system for almost 10 years before using a blade. Based upon that his system is not about the blade. Yet it is.

This may very well be true. But then what he learned was DESIGNED to be a bladed system, he just learned it a bit differently. That is not true for Wing Chun.

 

[KPM]

Sorry, traveling today, but quickly...it is simply a training mindset, an awareness.
And yes, I am also talking about knives other than the BJD...

Mindset and awareness are not enough. The techniques and concepts themselves have to be designed to deal with a blade.

 

[KPM]

WC evolved as all good martial systems do. They will continue to evolve unless the practitioner masses refuse to evolve. Why were the pole and swords added to the system? Just because, was it an afterthought, or was it because the systems practitioners saw a need for it. They must have been encountering the pole or staffs and bladed weapons. I didn't say wc started out as an bladed system..

Ah! So you are saying that YOUR Wing Chun has been "evolved" to be centered around dealing with weapons? That is very different! That is not the same as making a blanket statement that "Wing Chun is all about dealing with weapons." A blanket statement implies ALL Wing Chun. Or at least Wing Chun from its origins.

 

[wckf92]

Mindset and awareness are not enough. The techniques and concepts themselves have to be designed to deal with a blade.

How about the concept of staying alive?

 

[KPM]

How about the concept of staying alive?

Nothing wrong with that! But you can have the mindset of dealing with a weapon, but if you don't have the realistic techniques to back you up you are toast! Just as described in Steve's post.

 

[Danny T]

This may very well be true. But then what he learned was DESIGNED to be a bladed system, he just learned it a bit differently. That is not true for Wing Chun.

This you assume.
The system started off as a blunt object system utilized in close quarters. (hardwood sticks and pasok)
It evolved into a bladed art over the years. Flexible weapons have been added and since WWII firearms as well.

Ah! So you are saying that YOUR Wing Chun has been "evolved" to be centered around dealing with weapons? That is very different! That is not the same as making a blanket statement that "Wing Chun is all about dealing with weapons." A blanket statement implies ALL Wing Chun. Or at least Wing Chun from its origins.

I said wc evolved. Same as most all fighting systems do unless the mass of practitioners refuse to do so and there will always be individuals who will never evolve even as the system does. We know of examples of its evolving with the addition of the pole and swords. Now you can argue that 'some' factions have not evolved but the system wc has. Is the wc system you teach today the same system first taught and in the same manner when first designed. I ask again, Why was the pole added, why were the knives added? Just because? Just to have something extra. No.
Each part of the wc system is to be utilized within each other. They are not independent parts. As you already know there are many things one can get away with against an empty hand that simply doesn't work against a blade. In the wc system everything if presented properly will work against a blade. At least everything that I was taught will work vs a blade as well as an empty hand.

 

[geezer]

Ah! So you are saying that YOUR Wing Chun has been "evolved" to be centered around dealing with weapons? That is very different! That is not the same as making a blanket statement that "Wing Chun is all about dealing with weapons."

Yeah, and who really knows about the "original" WC ... except, of course You-know-who who used to post here . Can't say his name. It will jinx the thread. (hint: First name rhymes with Kendrick).

Anyway, my understanding of Wing Chun is evolving considerably due to my involvement in FMA, especially the DTE guys. Sometimes it takes somebody outside your system to help you find what is (at least potentially) inside the system.

 

[wckf92]

Nothing wrong with that! But you can have the mindset of dealing with a weapon, but if you don't have the realistic techniques to back you up you are toast! Just as described in Steve's post.

Opinions vary I guess. We'll have to agree to disagree. It appears my WC and it's training focus is more aligned with Danny in this instance. No biggie.
People can train their WC for a variety of purposes. I'll stick to my way.

 

[Danny T]

Nothing wrong with that! But you can have the mindset of dealing with a weapon, but if you don't have the realistic techniques to back you up you are toast!

Absolutely.
The thing is the techniques are there in the wc training system. Understanding that is important. More so you must apply them in a realistic manner against realistic attacks.
Against empty handed attacks, short weapon attacks, combinations of both, and the same with longer weapons. Empty hands vs the pole, BJD vs the pole, pole vs pole, BJD vs BJD, Empty hand vs BJD, Shorter blades vs shorter blades, empty hand vs short blades. You've got to train it all to truly understand it and Apply it.

 

[KPM]

OK, for Danny and wckf92, I'd be interested in hearing how your Wing Chun is different than everyone else's as far is its orientation around being for defending against a knife. What is different about it? What makes it "knife defense specific"?

 

[KPM]

I said wc evolved. Same as most all fighting systems do

---Ok. But are you saying that YOUR Wing Chun has evolved specifically to be oriented around dealing with a knife-wielding attacker? Because the 3 versions of Wing Chun I have studied certainly haven't. That's not to say that the cannot work against a knife! But they would need to train that specifically and change a few things to work well. They wouldn't just do exactly the same thing against a slash with a knife that they would do against a swinging punch. So the tools are there. But the emphasis is not.

Is the wc system you teach today the same system first taught and in the same manner when first designed.

---Probably not. But I also don't think any of the ancestors had an emphasis on Wing Chun empty-hand being all about defending against the knife. And as the versions of Wing Chun I have studied haven't either. If someone in your lineage has chosen to evolve it in this direction, that's great! But I still say that is much different than making a blanket statement about all Wing Chun.

As you already know there are many things one can get away with against an empty hand that simply doesn't work against a blade.

---Absolutely! That is why it takes a specific emphasis to be "blade oriented." And I don't see that emphasis in most Wing Chun systems. Most Wing Chun systems spend the majority of their training time working against a partner that is empty-hand and essentially doing the same techniques they are doing. Most Wing Chun systems spend a lot of time doing Chi Sau...empty-handed. This is because the original design of the Wing Chun system was to deal with an empty-handed opponent. If that was not true, Wing Chun would look more like FMA empty-hand...with the characteristics that I mentioned at the beginning of this thread. If that was not true, most Wing Chun systems would spend far more time actually training against a partner with a blade in hand.


In the wc system everything if presented properly will work against a blade. At least everything that I was taught will work vs a blade

---Really? Tan Da? Gan Da? Are you going to Pak Sau fast snipping thrusts? Like I said, I'd really like to hear about what you are doing differently with your Wing Chun that changes it into this "knife defense" emphasis.

 

[KPM]

This is pretty good. But note that Wong is doing a specific knife defense. This is NOT how he would have countered the same motion if it was a straight punch. He has created a SPECIFIC technique:

 

[KPM]

Here's another one that has adapted Wing Chun technique SPECIFICALLY against the knife. Again, this is not the same thing he would do against someone throwing a straight punch instead of a thrust with a knife:

As you troll through youtube you will find that the vast majority of videos of "Wing Chun defenses against knife attacks" are of this nature. Someone has taken the tools of Wing Chun and specifically ADAPTED them to a knife defense. They end up doing things very differently than what they typically do against empty-hand attacks. They have to change what they would normally do, to make the technique specific for a knife defense. So what they normally do cannot be said to be "all about defending against the knife."

 

[Danny T]

KPM

This is pretty good. But note that Wong is doing a specific knife defense. This is NOT how he would have countered the same motion if it was a straight punch. He has created a SPECIFIC technique:

Here's another one that has adapted Wing Chun technique SPECIFICALLY against the knife. Again, this is not the same thing he would do against someone throwing a straight punch instead of a thrust with a knife:

As you troll through youtube you will find that the vast majority of videos of "Wing Chun defenses against knife attacks" are of this nature. Someone has taken the tools of Wing Chun and specifically ADAPTED them to a knife defense. They end up doing things very differently than what they typically do against empty-hand attacks. They have to change what they would normally do, to make the technique specific for a knife defense. So what they normally do cannot be said to be "all about defending against the knife."

Have you trained against the pole and the BJD?
Do you defend against them in the exact specific way as you do an empty hand?
Movement is the technique, how one applies the movement is what is important.

Master Wong, hmm, he is comical. Like Joy I don't do the Wong way and from what I have read of your post I you don't either.

 

[drop bear]

This is pretty good. But note that Wong is doing a specific knife defense. This is NOT how he would have countered the same motion if it was a straight punch. He has created a SPECIFIC technique:

The difference being he stripped the knife and held the arm?

Or have I missed something?