Origins of Wing Chun?

[JPinAZ]

IMO, this discussion is a lot more complicated than it needs to be, even if it's not simply a chicken or egg thing. Sure, people have been using long and short poles as weapons long before WC came along. But that doesn't immediately mean WC comes from pole fighting either
I agree, there are clear indications that some strategies of weapons fighting have been integrated into the WC system during it's creation. And it goes beyond just the pole. In HFY WC, some of our Kiu Sau bridging methods see direct ties to spear fighting strategies and tactics. But that then doesn't then mean that all of HFY WC now comes from spear fighting either.

As I see it, WC is simply a hand fighting system that is based on sound principles, concepts, strategies and tactics with a goal of reaching maximum efficiency/effectiveness. And these ideas aren't constrained only to hand fighting. These ideas can be applied to many areas of combat, weapons, etc - as well as aspects of life outside of combat. So, they are also not exclusive only to combat. I see many times where I'm able to apply WC principles to every day life interactions.

Point is, these WC principles can easily be applied to any weapon fighting system to increase efficiency. The WC system stands on it's own and can be applied to all areas of combat and life in general (within reason I guess). So it makes sense that if some WC practitioner applied them to using a pole as a weapon, there would be direct relations to the hand fighting part of the system. Same with the knives. Or anything other weapon.

 

[guy b.]

Point is, these WC principles can easily be applied to any weapon fighting system to increase efficiency. The WC system stands on it's own and can be applied to all areas of combat and life in general (within reason I guess). So it makes sense that if some WC practitioner applied them to using a pole as a weapon, there would be direct relations to the hand fighting part of the system. Same with the knives. Or anything other weapon.

Which wing chun principles?

Do you apply the same principles to hands, knives and pole?

 

[geezer]

Which wing chun principles? ...Do you apply the same principles to hands, knives and pole?

Don't know about what JP thinks. But I do know that certain common core principles apply to empty hands, to stick, staff, pole and blade in my WC, and also in the Escrima I train. There are also important differences. Some folks focus on the differences, I pay more attention to the commonalities.

In Latosa Escrima this is referred to as the "concept of transition", that is the ability to make seamless transition from range to range, weapon to weapon, and situation to situation, still applying the core concepts while making the essential adjustments necessary to function effectively regardless of mode.

In Escrima and WC we define our concepts a bit differently. Different lineages of WC define these things differently. Who cares. They are just mental concepts designed to get a physical result, namely effective fighting skills. This outlook works for me. If your outlook works for you, I say great. That's what really matters.

 

[guy b.]

That's fine with me.

that is the ability to make seamless transition from range to range, weapon to weapon, and situation to situation, still applying the core concepts while making the essential adjustments necessary

Which core concepts?

 

[kakkattekoi]

Pole is not 100% related to WC while butterfly knife is
but usually learn during the last stage of WC training

 

[guy b.]

Pole is not 100% related to WC while butterfly knife is
but usually learn during the last stage of WC training

Can you describe how knives are related to wing chun (I assume you mean wing chun hands)?

 

[KPM]

Guy, for someone who is short on answers, you sure ask a lot of question!

 

[guy b.]

Guy, for someone who is short on answers, you sure ask a lot of question!

Questions are a necessary part of discussion

 

[geezer]

That's fine with me. ...Which core concepts?

"Concepts" is a funny word. People use it to mean different things. But your question is important, so I'll give it a go.

My first Escrima instructor was Rene Latosa. In the 80s and 90s he taught a system called PMAS Comabat Escrima which later became reduced to Latosa Escrima Concepts. The five concepts, areas or attributes of combat that he identifies are: Speed (time and distance), Power, Focus (awareness and attitude), Balance, and Transition.

Whether or not these categories equate to the term "concept" as others might use them is irrelevant to their applicability. Competence in each of these areas is necessary to fight effectively. The concept of transition, or the ability to seamlessly adjust and adapt to changes in fighting mode was touched on in my post above. In WC terms that could be seen as adapting to different ranges, such as kicking, punching, elbows and clinch, to throws, etc., and even (in my WC) to basic ground work (although that may not be traditional). Being able to transition to weapons such as the long pole or bart cham dao, or whatever else is at hand would also fall into this category. So "transition" is something that applies to the entire system, empty-hands, pole and knives.



Currently, I'm expanding my training (when time permits) working with a group called DTE /MMA(Direct Torres Escrima). The head of the system, Martin Torres, has a background as a boxer, but also in various other martial arts including judo, kenpo, wing tsun, Latosa escrima, and so on. He trained escrima with some well-known, and some nearly unknown people, and is truly a master at that art. He says that never earned a black belt in anything, but nearly all of his students have previously reached black-belt or its equivalent rank in other arts before coming to him.

If I can be excused for over-simplifying, DTE can really be boiled down to three "concepts": Angle, Forward Intent and Diamond-point.

The first of these "getting an angle" is a concept well understood by boxers and many other martial artists, including WC. Some may have heard the WC expression "Yau pin, yap ching" or "Come from the side through the center". If you can deflect or side step your opponent's attack so that he is not aligned on your center, while you align and attack his center, you are at an advantage. This concept applies to our empty-hands, the pole, and the knives.

The second core concept of DTE, "forward intent" should already be understood by any WC audience. It is one of our core concepts and applies both to empty-hands and weapons. It is also a core component of many other arts and can be applied to everything from fencing to grappling.

Lastly, diamond-point is the DTE term for instantaneously changing from one movement to the next with absolute efficiency and economy of motion. So when deflecting a frontal thrust with baston or blade, you complete the deflection or evasion with minimal movement then redirect on a "diamondpoint" applying forward intent to attack your opponent, covering the least distance in the shortest time possible. This too applies to WC hands and weapons. We just use terms like "efficiency" and "economy of motion".



Finally, my core art is, of course, WC. Some of our core principles are: simplicity, efficiency, economy of motion, straight-line/smallest circle (or shortest path), forward intent, borrowing your opponent's force, and using flexible, springy energy, rather than heavy, overwhelming force. Most of these relate to what was discussed above, and all apply to our empty hands, long pole, and bart cham dao. Or at least. that is my understanding.

Which of these principles or concepts would you not apply to all aspects of WC?

 

[KPM]

That's for the run-down Steve. I'd also like to point out that JKD shares a lot of core concepts and principles and even techniques with Wing Chun. Yet no one says that JKD and WCK are "exactly the same" or the same system.

 

[geezer]

Can you describe how knives are related to wing chun (I assume you mean wing chun hands)?

Well, one thing that comes to mind is this one student I know who is rather sloppy about his hygiene and neglects to trim his fingernails...

 

[kakkattekoi]

Can you describe how knives are related to wing chun (I assume you mean wing chun hands)?

@guy b, do you practice wing chun, and yes I meant wing chun hand

 

[guy b.]

"Concepts" is a funny word. People use it to mean different things.

A concept as I am using it is an idea that does not contain judgement. For example the idea of the centre line. A principle necessarily contains judgement. Lat sau jik chung would be an example.

The five concepts, areas or attributes of combat that he identifies are: Speed (time and distance), Power, Focus (awareness and attitude), Balance, and Transition

These are concepts, but I would say very loose ones. Not that useful for combat application?

If I can be excused for over-simplifying, DTE can really be boiled down to three "concepts": Angle, Forward Intent and Diamond-point.

Yes I would agree these are concepts

The first of these "getting an angle" is a concept well understood by boxers and many other martial artists, including WC. Some may have heard the WC expression "Yau pin, yap ching" or "Come from the side through the center". If you can deflect or side step your opponent's attack so that he is not aligned on your center, while you align and attack his center, you are at an advantage. This concept applies to our empty-hands, the pole, and the knives.

I would disagree that hand, pole and knives approach angles in the same way. Hands and pole much more about closing, taking initiative, chasing centre, eating up space and options, hitting immediately and aggressively when opportunity arises. Knives much more about avoiding facing, angling off, safety, taking shortcuts for speed, hitting hands first, being outside.

The second core concept of DTE, "forward intent" should already be understood by any WC audience. It is one of our core concepts and applies both to empty-hands and weapons. It is also a core component of many other arts and can be applied to everything from fencing to grappling.

I would say that forward intent has a wing chun specific meaning that doesn't apply to something like grappling in anything like the same way, and that doesn't apply to knives and empty hands in anything like the same way.

Lastly, diamond-point is the DTE term for instantaneously changing from one movement to the next with absolute efficiency and economy of motion. So when deflecting a frontal thrust with baston or blade, you complete the deflection or evasion with minimal movement then redirect on a "diamondpoint" applying forward intent to attack your opponent, covering the least distance in the shortest time possible. This too applies to WC hands and weapons. We just use terms like "efficiency" and "economy of motion".

I would say that hands and pole do not function in this way, but that knives sometimes does. Hands and pole is about hitting in a way that covers, it is about initiative, it is about timing, it is not about cover then respond. Knives prioritises covering first and may sometimes do so before responding, although simultaneous cover and respond is preferable.

Finally, my core art is, of course, WC. Some of our core principles are: simplicity, efficiency, economy of motion, straight-line/smallest circle (or shortest path), forward intent, borrowing your opponent's force, and using flexible, springy energy, rather than heavy, overwhelming force. Most of these relate to what was discussed above, and all apply to our empty hands, long pole, and bart cham dao. Or at least. that is my understanding.

Not sure I would categorise all of those as principles; some are concepts. To take one example, lat sau jik chung is a principle, but "forward intent" is a concept. Continuing with this particular example, LSJC does not apply to knives, but does apply to hands and pole.

 

[guy b.]

@guy b, do you practice wing chun, and yes I meant wing chun hand

yes

 

[kakkattekoi]

Pole is not 100% related to WC while butterfly knife is
but usually learn during the last stage of WC training

Can you describe how knives are related to wing chun (I assume you mean wing chun hands)?

@guy b, do you practice wing chun, and yes I meant wing chun hand

yes

the move/form and the foot work of the butterfly knife are all related to wing chun
eventually you will understand it when you are at the stage of practicing the knife

 

[LFJ]

I'd also like to point out that JKD shares a lot of core concepts and principles and even techniques with Wing Chun. Yet no one says that JKD and WCK are "exactly the same" or the same system.

They also share contradictory ideas in their core strategies meaning they are not complimentary or meant to be trained together.

VT pole and empty-hand share the same core concepts and strategies and are meant to be trained in unison at an early stage when learning the system's theory and developing the basics. They are clearly the same system.

 

[LFJ]

the move/form and the foot work of the butterfly knife are all related to wing chun
eventually you will understand it when you are at the stage of practicing the knife

In WSLVT, knife work is related to Biu-ji thinking which is in conflict with the core empty-hand strategy, while pole and core empty-hand strategy are the same. So, your "100%" comment is inaccurate from a WSLVT point of view.

 

[guy b.]

the move/form and the foot work of the butterfly knife are all related to wing chun
eventually you will understand it when you are at the stage of practicing the knife

So you aren't going to explain?

 

[guy b.]

They also share contradictory ideas in their core strategies meaning they are not complimentary or meant to be trained together.

VT pole and empty-hand share the same core concepts and strategies and are meant to be trained in unison at an early stage when learning the system's theory and developing the basics. They are clearly the same system.

Consistency (i.e. lack of contradictory ideas) is essential in a functional system. Consistency is probably the best reason for choosing WSLVT over other types of wing chun that I have seen.

 

[kakkattekoi]

In WSLVT, knife work is related to Biu-ji thinking which is in conflict with the core empty-hand strategy, while pole and core empty-hand strategy are the same. So, your "100%" comment is inaccurate from a WSLVT point of view.

WSLVT stand for wong shun leung wing chun?
if i understand correctly, you mean in the wong lineage knife is not related to empty hand while pole is ?