Elite female judo vs untrained male

[lklawson]

Judo concentrate on throwing opponent to the ground, which, by itself, is NOT incapacitating. You just get up and attack again!!!

Here's the answer to the OP's question and to your <cough> "assertion."

 

[Ironbear24]

Not exactly the example of great or even good striking skills:

Both of her opponents would get destroyed by Ronda, if she could make it into a grappling match. But she couldn't. And her striking skills, were sub par at best. No foot work, no guard, no jab, no straight punches of any sort, no head movement, telegraphing each punch, leading with her face... I could go on. Pick any boxer... they would win in a striking match... pro, amateur, college, the gal that works out and spars at the boxing club... All your Muay Thai fighters, kickboxing fighters, a good number of TKD and Karate fighters as well (as long as they have contact fighting experience). Now, if she could get it to a grappling match, then Ronda wins most of those fights... but it is not her striking skill... its her ability to force the fight that she wants. She ran into two gals that she could not force into a grappling match and got KOed. But in a pure striking match, she does not even come up to the amateur or club level strikers in most any town you find. It is her Judo skills, and athleticism that makes her special.

Could you paint starry night while riding horseback? It's going to be much more difficult to keep perfect form and technique while in the fire vs in an easier setting.

 

[Ironbear24]

Unrelated to the thread, but welcome back to the site! Hope you've been well. (Can't recall when I changed my username-likely after you left. I was kempodisciple)

Thank you, I am alive.

 

[wolfeyes2323]

Is judo effective in a real fight? Who would win if an elite female judoka (105lb) against a bigger untrained guy (150lb) in a real fight?

Only if they understand that a fight of this
unequal nature is won and lost before it begins.
It can not become a contest of strength or skills,
the smaller person needs the advantages of strong
position and suddenness (surprise), and must
understand how to keep advantage once gained.
The engagement can not be allowed to degenerate
into a wrestling match, they can not be allowed
to recover and start over, and they can not be allowed
to tap , once in control there needs to be escape
or finish.

 

[wab25]

Could you paint starry night while riding horseback? It's going to be much more difficult to keep perfect form and technique while in the fire vs in an easier setting.

And yet, the other gal in both fights, is doing just that. Okay, sure, they are not keeping perfect form all the time, because a fight is a fight. But, the opponent in both fights is clearly on a much higher level of striking than Ronda. Just as Silva was on another level than Maia. They move better, use lateral movement and angles, use jabs and straight punches, set up their techniques, they don't telegraph what they are doing, they use good (sometimes great) foot work, control the distance... Sorry, but running straight in, chin first, hands down while randomly swinging wide looping punches that you were kind enough to telegraph beforehand... is not competent striking. It just is not.

Don't get me wrong. I am not saying striking is better than grappling. I am not saying that grappling is better than striking. They are both very good. The difference is the fighter and how they implement those skills. One of the most important determining factors of a fight, is who decides what type of fight it is. If the grappler can make the striker grapple, he has an advantage. If the striker can make the grappler strike, he has an advantage.

The biggest lesson from MMA that I have found, is whoever determines what type of fight you have, has an advantage. Once you establish that you are determining what type of fight it is... you have another very important decision... Do you want to force the fight you are good at or the fight they your opponent is bad at? When the answer to what you are good at and the other guy is bad at, is the same, its very easy to answer. But, sometimes, what you are good at and what they are bad at are different. Now, its a harder question. But, if you can not determine what type of fight it is... you are at a great disadvantage.

 

[Alan0354]

This is incorrect.

For trained Judoka landing on a mat... it is not incapacitating... until it is. Kimura would throw Judo champions with o soto gari, on Judo mats and gave them concussions. Most people, when thrown full force by a Judo player, even on a mat, will not get right back up. (Most Judo players will not throw newbies and beginners that hard... they are nice folks and if they break people on the first day, they have no one to practice with...) There are videos on youtube of real Judo throws being used in real fights. (I would post some, I have in the past, but they now all require adult sign in to watch) When done on sidewalks, asphalt or tile... it usually results in a KO if the guy lands on his head. If they miss the head, they have problems just breathing, and don't usually get back up.

Judo also focuses on choking. They are quite good at choking people out, which tends to end fights fairly quickly too.

Like I said, I actually spent 9 months learning. Judo don't have a lot of choke and submission like BJJ or even Wrestling. It's not easy to throw a strong guy down, we played with it before.

Of cause, if you practice for years, yes, it can work. BUT it's not efficient, not many people have the patience to practice for years. You should know how much turn over in MA classes, I would say average is 8 months or so. Only a few stays for years. You get a lot in 8 months with striking MA, not judo, I spent 9 months, I don't dare to use it. When chips are down, it's still kick boxing for me......Now, the cane.

Now, if you learn BJJ, kick boxing together, then it's good. Judo will enhance other things you learn. But I assume the thread is talking about judo only. Striking will get you close to the opponent, then you have a chance to throw him.

 

[wab25]

Like I said, I actually spent 9 months learning.

Did you actually train for 9 months? Or was it really 8 months and 3 weeks? If its a real 9 months, as opposed to 8 months and 3 weeks, then I will have to bow to your authority on the subject here... but only if you trained for the full 9 months...

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

You get a lot in 8 months with striking MA, not judo, I spent 9 months, I don't dare to use it.

It depends on how you train.

During the first 6 months of my Chinese wrestling training, my teacher forced me to use just 1 technique on the mat. After 6 months, he then told me to use that technique to set up other techniques.

One of my Chinese wrestling brothers forced his son to train just 1 technique within 2 years.

IMO, if you just concentrate on 1 technique and wrestle 15 rounds daily, 9 months is more than enough.

 

[Ironbear24]

One is better at striking than the other but I wouldn't say either one are bad strikers. It's not as if Ronda proclaimed she'll only need grappling to win her matches. She trained both but due to her background as a Judoka she relied too much on that and the consequences are there on how that went.

And to the OP who said throws aren't incapacitating, I'm sure if someone performed a uke waza on you anywhere mat or street or sand or grass. You're gonna be incapacitated.

 

[Ironbear24]

Like I said, I actually spent 9 months learning. Judo don't have a lot of choke and submission like BJJ or even Wrestling. It's not easy to throw a strong guy down, we played with it before.

Of cause, if you practice for years, yes, it can work. BUT it's not efficient, not many people have the patience to practice for years. You should know how much turn over in MA classes, I would say average is 8 months or so. Only a few stays for years. You get a lot in 8 months with striking MA, not judo, I spent 9 months, I don't dare to use it. When chips are down, it's still kick boxing for me......Now, the cane.

Now, if you learn BJJ, kick boxing together, then it's good. Judo will enhance other things you learn. But I assume the thread is talking about judo only. Striking will get you close to the opponent, then you have a chance to throw him.

Oh man, there's so much you don't know about Judo. *sigh*

 

[AIKIKENJITSU]

Is judo effective in a real fight? Who would win if an elite female judoka (105lb) against a bigger untrained guy (150lb) in a real fight?

I'm 77, 5'2" and I can still move fast and strong and take down guys bigger than me. I teach my version of American Kenpo. I have been in physical altercations and any type of martial art training will help you. Yes, Judo would, should help you in a conflict. Even though the Judo moves were taken out of Jujitsu it make it safer for competition, the way I understand it. That said, the female should know some strikes and kicks and combined with judo, she a chance of winning. But one strike and she's out. That said, Judo would not be the choice to take if you were looking for a self defense art. You really need a punching land kicking art which also has joint locks in it. My Kenpo has Aikido moves in it and I put in many more joint locks, because in a altercation, at one precise moment, you don't know what you will need, till you need it.
Sifu
Puyallup, WA

 

[Alan0354]

Oh man, there's so much you don't know about Judo. *sigh*

Know enough that I won't use it if my life depends on it. If I were to do it again, I'd spend time on BJJ, Wrestling instead. It would be time much better spent.

Judo is just too specialize and too limited. For self defense, there are much better options than judo.

Like I said before, any training is better than nothing. Even if you train only in weight lifting, it's much better off than anyone that doesn't know anything, at least you can throw them around.

 

[Ironbear24]

Know enough that I won't use it if my life depends on it. If I were to do it again, I'd spend time on BJJ, Wrestling instead. It would be time much better spent.

Judo is just too specialize and too limited. For self defense, there are much better options than judo.

Like I said before, anything training is better than nothing. Ever if you train only in weight lifting, it's much better off than anyone that doesn't know anything, at least you can throw them around.

That's your opinion based on orange belt techniques tops. Again, you know so little about Judo it is impossible for you to make an educated decision.

 

[Alan0354]

I'm 77, 5'2" and I can still move fast and strong and take down guys bigger than me. I teach my version of American Kenpo. I have been in physical altercations and any type of martial art training will help you. Yes, Judo would, should help you in a conflict. Even though the Judo moves were taken out of Jujitsu it make it safer for competition, the way I understand it. That said, the female should know some strikes and kicks and combined with judo, she a chance of winning. But one strike and she's out. That said, Judo would not be the choice to take if you were looking for a self defense art. You really need a punching land kicking art which also has joint locks in it. My Kenpo has Aikido moves in it and I put in many more joint locks, because in a altercation, at one precise moment, you don't know what you will need, till you need it.
Sifu
Puyallup, WA

I did not know that, it makes a world of sense. It's like the technique is so so limited. Like we learn ground game, but it's like leaning on the side of the opponent's chest and prevent him from getting up only. Nothing else. Nothing like the ground game in BJJ. And they start the fight holding each other's clothes and tuck each other around. If judo meets with someone that stick and move, they are going to have a hell of a time getting hold of the opponent. Forget about throwing the opponent down.

I might be only in it for 9 months, but I've seen much more advanced people "fighting"( if you can call that). It's a safe sparring though.

 

[Alan0354]

That's your opinion based on orange belt techniques tops. Again, you know so little about Judo it is impossible for you to make an educated decision.

Like I said over and over, if I were to do it again, I'd go for BJJ and Wrestling to add to kick boxing, NOT JUDO. You can keep it. Time would be much and I repeat MUCH better spent learning BJJ and Wrestling that actually works and proven in UFC.

 

[Ironbear24]

Like I said over and over, if I were to do it again, I'd go for BJJ and Wrestling to add to kick boxing, NOT JUDO. You can keep it. Time would be much and I repeat MUCH better spent learning BJJ and Wrestling that actually works and proven in UFC.

Do you plan on becoming a UFC fighter? That isn't the topic you originally spoke about.

You're talking about self defense training which are completely separate things.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Know enough that I won't use it if my life depends on it.

A simple take down technique like this can be very useful in fighting.

This is the most logical take down. You let your arms to deal with your opponent's arms. You let your leg to deal with your opponent's leg. You don't need to drop down too low to expose your head. You don't need to grab on your opponent's clothes. A simple left downward parry, arm wrap, and right comb hair, head lock, you are in.

 

[wab25]

I did not know that, it makes a world of sense. It's like the technique is so so limited. Like we learn ground game, but it's like leaning on the side of the opponent's chest and prevent him from getting up only. Nothing else.

The Jujitsu, that Judo was taken from was not BJJ. It was from Japanese Jujitsu, most of which only had cooperative training. (two person katas) Judo wanted to practice against fully resistant opponents. So, yes some moves were removed, so that the moves that were kept could be practiced at full force, against a fully resisting and attacking opponent.

Notice how they do not start in a sleeve and lapel grip, but have to fight for it:

Also notice, the guy got knocked out by the throw.

Another throw Knocking out an opponent.

You can see this one better (2nd take down):

Here is a Judo throw being used in MMA, watch the guys hands go limp when he hits the mat.

 

[Alan0354]

Do you plan on becoming a UFC fighter? That isn't the topic you originally spoke about.

You're talking about self defense training which are completely separate things.

UFC sure show what is useful and what is not. Like I said, even if you only train in weight lifting, it's better than someone that doesn't know anything in self defense. That does NOT mean weight training is good for self defense.

 

[Alan0354]

The Jujitsu, that Judo was taken from was not BJJ. It was from Japanese Jujitsu, most of which only had cooperative training. (two person katas) Judo wanted to practice against fully resistant opponents. So, yes some moves were removed, so that the moves that were kept could be practiced at full force, against a fully resisting and attacking opponent.

Notice how they do not start in a sleeve and lapel grip, but have to fight for it:

Also notice, the guy got knocked out by the throw.

Another throw Knocking out an opponent.

You can see this one better (2nd take down):

Here is a Judo throw being used in MMA, watch the guys hands go limp when he hits the mat.

So why not learn Jujitsu instead? better yet, learn BJJ and wrestling instead? Why learn the water down version?