Elite female judo vs untrained male

[drop bear]

Then it's whoever gets the better of the other at that time.

Sometimes Johnny wins and sometimes Joe wins. And so goes the fight game.

Not really. The grappler tends to win. Mcmap I think did a study.

But my theory is a grappler will advance his position and therefore his chances of winning. Where a striker tends to have to work from a 50/50 position untill he wins.

 

[drop bear]

Judo teach you awareness of surroundings?

If one is choosing what to learn, why not BJJ or wrestling that is complete and proved to be effective?

Actually if you train in the real world. Both teach you awareness of your surroundings. Because you generally spar and have to share a mat with 20 other people.

And running over people all the time makes you look like a duche

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Not really. The grappler tends to win. Mcmap I think did a study.

But my theory is a grappler will advance his position and therefore his chances of winning. Where a striker tends to have to work from a 50/50 position untill he wins.

In another thread that OP talks about footwork. I ask, "If you have moved in, why do you want to move back before you finish your job?" I then realize that the OP is talking about the striking art only - to maintain optimal punching range.

For the grappling art, if you have moved in, you won't move back until you have taken your opponent down. IMO, the grappler has more aggressive attitude than a striker has.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Actually if you train in the real world. Both teach you awareness of your surroundings. Because you generally spar and have to share a mat with 20 other people.

And running over people all the time makes you look like a duche

Some of my best awareness training, oddly, came at an Aikido dojo in Portugal. It's a big room with pillars all over the place. I've never worked so hard to pay attention to my sourroundings as doing unfamiliar techniques and being afraid I'm going to leave blood on the walls.

 

[lklawson]

Know enough that I won't use it if my life depends on it. I

How could you? You spent less time learning it than it takes to potty train a child.

 

[lklawson]

I did not know that, it makes a world of sense. It's like the technique is so so limited. Like we learn ground game, but it's like leaning on the side of the opponent's chest and prevent him from getting up only. Nothing else. Nothing like the ground game in BJJ. And they start the fight holding each other's clothes and tuck each other around. If judo meets with someone that stick and move, they are going to have a hell of a time getting hold of the opponent. Forget about throwing the opponent down.

I might be only in it for 9 months, but I've seen much more advanced people "fighting"( if you can call that). It's a safe sparring though.

Not exactly. That's a very superficial understanding of the goal, process, and results which ends up being both inaccurate and misleading.

 

[wab25]

But my theory is a grappler will advance his position and therefore his chances of winning. Where a striker tends to have to work from a 50/50 position untill he wins.

Why do you think that the striker does not advance his position as well? The whole point of using angles and lateral movement is to give yourself a better than 50/50 position. Strikers do all kinds of things to put them in a position where they can hit the other guy, but the other guy cannot hit back. In doing so, they are putting themselves into positions of advantage.

If we are talking about a striker verses a grappler, and the striker can keep the grappler from grabbing him (like Silva, Holm and Nunez did) that is not a 50/50 position. That is a position where the striker can use his techniques to hurt the grappler, but the grappler cannot hurt the striker.

Strikers advance their position all the time. They have many ways to do so. It just looks different than advancing your position in grappling... but it is still advancing your position.

For the grappling art, if you have moved in, you won't move back until you have taken your opponent down. IMO, the grappler has more aggressive attitude than a striker has.

Both are trying to put the opponent in the place where they will receive the most damage from their techniques. If both are trying to put their opponent in the worst possible position, how is one a more aggressive attitude than the other? Yes, the positions are different, and the techniques used are different, but both are trying to break the other guy as much as possible. Both are aggressive.

 

[lklawson]

Judo is watered down in the sense of it removed what wasn't applicable to fighting outside of feudal Japan.

That wasn't Kano's goal.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

If one is choosing what to learn, why not BJJ or wrestling that is complete and proved to be effective?

Hmm... this is starting to look really familiar.

 

[lklawson]

Can judo throw a spin back kick or straight?

If you want to, yes. Strikes and kicking are part of the official syllabus of Judo (depending on which organization) and exist in various kata (such as USJA's Tandoku Renshu). The reason that you think these aren't part of Judo is because 99.99% of Judo is focused on Olympic or variations of modern Shiai rules (the sport), which typically disallow striking. There are a few old-school Judo instructors who teach it, but it's not as common.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I did not know that, it makes a world of sense. It's like the technique is so so limited. Like we learn ground game, but it's like leaning on the side of the opponent's chest and prevent him from getting up only. Nothing else. Nothing like the ground game in BJJ. And they start the fight holding each other's clothes and tuck each other around. If judo meets with someone that stick and move, they are going to have a hell of a time getting hold of the opponent. Forget about throwing the opponent down.

I might be only in it for 9 months, but I've seen much more advanced people "fighting"( if you can call that). It's a safe sparring though.

What ground game is contained in Judo seems to vary a lot. In general, it has apparently become more limited as the ruleset for competition has de-emphasized the ground game. Back a thousand years ago when I was training, my instructor had competed under rules that had more ground game, so our training had more ground game to it (he was very focused on training to the realities of competition).

But as I understand it, there are still Judo schools that teach the original curriculum (which did include strikes and a self-defense set). And there are still schools that teach significant ground work. But even someone who only trains for the current ruleset will be able to get throws on someone trying to evade them - they are, after all, training to get throws on folks who know how to stop them from doing those throws. The evasion there is different, but many of the principles still apply.

As for dealing with strikes, as with BJJ, it will likely depend how they train. But they are trained to get in and control arms, so if they get past the first punch...

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Judo teach you awareness of surroundings?

If one is choosing what to learn, why not BJJ or wrestling that is complete and proved to be effective?

If one is choosing what to learn, why not fencing or horseriding?

People choose what they want.

 

[lklawson]

In another thread that OP talks about footwork. I ask, "If you have moved in, why do you want to move back before you finish your job?" I then realize that the OP is talking about the striking art only - to maintain optimal punching range.

For the grappling art, if you have moved in, you won't move back until you have taken your opponent down. IMO, the grappler has more aggressive attitude than a striker has.

There are plenty of reasons to "move out" after "moving in" when grappling and throwing. It's about finding leverage and balance points.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

If one is choosing what to learn, why not fencing or horseriding?

Both were so effective that they were a standard part of Western military combat training from WWI going back to before the fall of Rome. They were considered so integral to the basic skills required of a fighting man that they were immediately made part of the re-imagined Olympics in 1896. Horsemanship skills were considered so important that the word "Cavalier" (or "Chevalier") became synonymous with "Knight."

Yeah, if this Allan (troll?) fella wants to learn "real world proven effective" for literally thousands of years straight, then equestrianism is one of the most valid areas of study.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Why do you think that the striker does not advance his position as well? The whole point of using angles and lateral movement is to give yourself a better than 50/50 position. Strikers do all kinds of things to put them in a position where they can hit the other guy, but the other guy cannot hit back. In doing so, they are putting themselves into positions of advantage.

If we are talking about a striker verses a grappler, and the striker can keep the grappler from grabbing him (like Silva, Holm and Nunez did) that is not a 50/50 position. That is a position where the striker can use his techniques to hurt the grappler, but the grappler cannot hurt the striker.

Strikers advance their position all the time. They have many ways to do so. It just looks different than advancing your position in grappling... but it is still advancing your position.

Both are trying to put the opponent in the place where they will receive the most damage from their techniques. If both are trying to put their opponent in the worst possible position, how is one a more aggressive attitude than the other? Yes, the positions are different, and the techniques used are different, but both are trying to break the other guy as much as possible. Both are aggressive.

My take on what he said was that a grappler is constantly advancing his position. This is really clear in watching a BJJer moving systematically toward a submission. I don't think there's the same thing in striking, except in the progressive working on one part of the body (like the MT fighter kicking the thigh to weaken the leg). It's not really position, but serves much of the same purpose.

 

[wab25]

My take on what he said was that a grappler is constantly advancing his position. This is really clear in watching a BJJer moving systematically toward a submission. I don't think there's the same thing in striking, except in the progressive working on one part of the body (like the MT fighter kicking the thigh to weaken the leg). It's not really position, but serves much of the same purpose.

I'll use a boxing example. You have a short boxer fighting a tall boxer. The short boxer is constantly advancing his position. He wants to get inside and close to the taller boxer. Inside and close, the shorter boxer has the advantage, its easier for him to throw full power punches and harder for the taller boxer to hit him. If you watch a boxing match, with a short guy verses a tall guy, usually, you will see the shorter guy continuously advancing his position, trying to cut off the ring, get the taller guy on the ropes and get inside. This is similar to the grappler advancing his position. Both are moving to a position where they have an advantage and the other guy has a disadvantage.

If we consider "advancing your position" as moving to a position where you have the advantage over the other guy... Then, once our tall boxer gets pressed into the ropes... he works on advancing his position. That is he is working to get off the ropes and establish distance, where he can hit the shorter guy but the shorter guy cannot hit him. The tall guy is constantly advancing to one position, where he has an advantage and the shorter guy is constantly advancing to a different position, where he has the advantage.

Further, boxers (and all strikers) work towards angles. They want to come in at an angle, because when you come in at an angle, it gives you an advantage... its easier to land your punch, and it is harder for the other guy to defend or land his own punch. Now, you can't just step to the side and then punch... the other guy will turn and take away your angle. You have to set it up. Foot work, head movement, feints, jabs... all kinds of things are used to set up the opportunity for you to get that angle, where you can deliver your punch. Most of the time when you see two boxers dancing and feinting and circling... they are both trying to advance to a position of advantage over the other guy.

A good example of this is an orthodox boxer against a southpaw. Whoever has their lead foot to the outside, has the advantage. You will see both fighters constantly trying to establish their lead foot as the outside foot. Again they are constantly advancing their position.

Yes, in grappling you tend to maintain the dominant position for great lengths of time... you are mounted for a few minutes, you work towards establishing half guard for a few minutes and then full guard, where you hope to stay while you set up your submission or sweep to an even better position, which you then hope to keep.

Striking works in a similar manner. First you work to maintain the distance that you want to fight at. Usually each fighter is working to establish a different range, one that gives them the advantage. Then they are looking for location. Do you want to be in the center of the ring, on the ropes or have the other guy on the ropes or in the corner? All of these positions have advantages and disadvantages. If you are in the corner, you work to advance to the ropes, then to either reverse the position (sweep???) and put the other guy on the ropes or you can escape back to the center of the ring. Once you have your range established, as opposed to the other guys range, you work on trying to set up your technique, getting your angle for your punch or combination to land. Yes, these angles tend to last a lot shorter of a time than a position in grappling... but they are just as important. And there is just as much work done to get to these positions... its just done differently. But the range, and location of the fight, those are things each fighter is always trying to gain and keep, for the duration of the fight... just like taking the other guys back in grappling, if you can get it, you keep it, while the other guy tries to advance his own position out of it.

 

[isshinryuronin]

"If you have moved in, why do you want to move back before you finish your job?"

Exactly. Many generals have advocated not taking the same ground twice. Why retreat? Even a failed attack can be used to advance your position.

Why do you think that the striker does not advance his position as well?

Many don't. Because most karate fighters do not know how to fight at grappling range, with either wraps, locks, knees, stomps, elbows, etc. These things do not score points so longer range moves are drilled. This is the difference between sport karate and combat self-defense karate.

Sport fighters do not need to advance their position after the scoring strike. Once scored, that strike has finished its job. Combat fighters use that strike to advance the landings of additional strikes till the opponent is non-threat. In other words, in combat, landed strikes are a means to an end - in sport, landed strikes are the end.

 

[wab25]

Many don't. Because most karate fighters do not know how to fight at grappling range, with either wraps, locks, knees, stomps, elbows, etc. These things do not score points so longer range moves are drilled.

I think you are confusing "advancing position" with "closing distance." If I have someone in my guard, and then I take their back... I am no closer or farther away from him, yet I have advanced my position. You do not have to close distance, in order to advance your position. Advancing your position is putting yourself into a position with a greater advantage or lesser disadvantage to the one you started in. In the grappling world, that means a different pin. In the striking world, it means something different. If you are the taller boxer, and you are pushed up against the ropes by the shorter boxer... you advance your position by getting off the ropes and out to a distance where you can hit him, but he cannot hit you. You advanced from a position where he could hit you, and you had a harder time hitting him to a position where he cannot hit you, and you can hit him.

Sport fighters do not need to advance their position after the scoring strike. Once scored, that strike has finished its job. Combat fighters use that strike to advance the landings of additional strikes till the opponent is non-threat. In other words, in combat, landed strikes are a means to an end - in sport, landed strikes are the end.

Boxing, Kickboxing, Muay Thai and MMA are sports where the strike landing is not the end. The fighters do advance their position, using strikes. They follow up with strikes, and set up bigger strikes and combos.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I'll use a boxing example. You have a short boxer fighting a tall boxer. The short boxer is constantly advancing his position. He wants to get inside and close to the taller boxer. Inside and close, the shorter boxer has the advantage, its easier for him to throw full power punches and harder for the taller boxer to hit him. If you watch a boxing match, with a short guy verses a tall guy, usually, you will see the shorter guy continuously advancing his position, trying to cut off the ring, get the taller guy on the ropes and get inside. This is similar to the grappler advancing his position. Both are moving to a position where they have an advantage and the other guy has a disadvantage.

If we consider "advancing your position" as moving to a position where you have the advantage over the other guy... Then, once our tall boxer gets pressed into the ropes... he works on advancing his position. That is he is working to get off the ropes and establish distance, where he can hit the shorter guy but the shorter guy cannot hit him. The tall guy is constantly advancing to one position, where he has an advantage and the shorter guy is constantly advancing to a different position, where he has the advantage.

Further, boxers (and all strikers) work towards angles. They want to come in at an angle, because when you come in at an angle, it gives you an advantage... its easier to land your punch, and it is harder for the other guy to defend or land his own punch. Now, you can't just step to the side and then punch... the other guy will turn and take away your angle. You have to set it up. Foot work, head movement, feints, jabs... all kinds of things are used to set up the opportunity for you to get that angle, where you can deliver your punch. Most of the time when you see two boxers dancing and feinting and circling... they are both trying to advance to a position of advantage over the other guy.

A good example of this is an orthodox boxer against a southpaw. Whoever has their lead foot to the outside, has the advantage. You will see both fighters constantly trying to establish their lead foot as the outside foot. Again they are constantly advancing their position.

Yes, in grappling you tend to maintain the dominant position for great lengths of time... you are mounted for a few minutes, you work towards establishing half guard for a few minutes and then full guard, where you hope to stay while you set up your submission or sweep to an even better position, which you then hope to keep.

Striking works in a similar manner. First you work to maintain the distance that you want to fight at. Usually each fighter is working to establish a different range, one that gives them the advantage. Then they are looking for location. Do you want to be in the center of the ring, on the ropes or have the other guy on the ropes or in the corner? All of these positions have advantages and disadvantages. If you are in the corner, you work to advance to the ropes, then to either reverse the position (sweep???) and put the other guy on the ropes or you can escape back to the center of the ring. Once you have your range established, as opposed to the other guys range, you work on trying to set up your technique, getting your angle for your punch or combination to land. Yes, these angles tend to last a lot shorter of a time than a position in grappling... but they are just as important. And there is just as much work done to get to these positions... its just done differently. But the range, and location of the fight, those are things each fighter is always trying to gain and keep, for the duration of the fight... just like taking the other guys back in grappling, if you can get it, you keep it, while the other guy tries to advance his own position out of it.

That's a great explanation. I tend not to think so fully on the striking game, since I'm more likely to transition to grappling past a certain point. But even then, I suppose I'm usually working to get position to transition.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I think you are confusing "advancing position" with "closing distance." If I have someone in my guard, and then I take their back... I am no closer or farther away from him, yet I have advanced my position. You do not have to close distance, in order to advance your position. Advancing your position is putting yourself into a position with a greater advantage or lesser disadvantage to the one you started in. In the grappling world, that means a different pin. In the striking world, it means something different. If you are the taller boxer, and you are pushed up against the ropes by the shorter boxer... you advance your position by getting off the ropes and out to a distance where you can hit him, but he cannot hit you. You advanced from a position where he could hit you, and you had a harder time hitting him to a position where he cannot hit you, and you can hit him.


Boxing, Kickboxing, Muay Thai and MMA are sports where the strike landing is not the end. The fighters do advance their position, using strikes. They follow up with strikes, and set up bigger strikes and combos.

The more I think about this, the more I realize I do play for position in striking more than I had considered. There are positions I prefer to play from (distance or angle) and I work to maneuver us both to create those positions.