Elite female judo vs untrained male

[Buka]

Is it an African or a European judoka? I think the airspeed of an unladen judoka can really vary.

I'm still laughing at that one.

 

[wab25]

I think if there's one thing the UFC has taught us, it's that grappling > striking.

I think Ronda Rousey proved this to be true... right up until she proved it not to be true... twice... and then quit...

What the UFC has taught me is that there is a lot of value in being the one who sets the rules of engagement. Whoever is better at setting the rules of engagement, usually has better odds of winning.

Corollary: Just because you don't want to fight a certain way, is no guarantee that you won't have to fight that way...

 

[Steve]

I think Ronda Rousey proved this to be true... right up until she proved it not to be true... twice... and then quit...

What the UFC has taught me is that there is a lot of value in being the one who sets the rules of engagement. Whoever is better at setting the rules of engagement, usually has better odds of winning.

Corollary: Just because you don't want to fight a certain way, is no guarantee that you won't have to fight that way...

I would mostly agree with that, though it's always with the caveat that at the elite level in MMA, the worst strikers are still competent strikers and the worst grapplers are still competent grapplers.

In a contest between a competent striker and a competent grappler (all other things being equal), the grappler wins that pretty much every time, in my opinion. The striker would have a very limited opportunity to end it quickly, and outside of that is screwed.

 

[wab25]

I would mostly agree with that, though it's always with the caveat that at the elite level in MMA, the worst strikers are still competent strikers and the worst grapplers are still competent grapplers.

In a contest between a competent striker and a competent grappler (all other things being equal), the grappler wins that pretty much every time, in my opinion. The striker would have a very limited opportunity to end it quickly, and outside of that is screwed.

Not according to the stats...

How MMA fights end: Submission victories way down

How have UFC fights changed in recent years? Reed Kuhn breaks down each key trend to determine where the sport is headed.

www.espn.com

About half of all UFC fights will end inside the distance, but far more so by TKO than by submission. The finish rate for 2017 was right at 50 percent, thanks to 146 KO/TKOs and 80 submissions.

I still say it has more to do with who was better at dictating what type of fight it was.

 

[Deleted member 39746]

Disagree.

I think UFC has taught us both striking and grappling are equally important and in the end its about individual ability.

It sort of favours striking. 5 min rounds and gloves sort of means it favours striking, at least modern UFC, early UFC was grappling.

Anyone who isnt knew to martial arts or watches and reads things as a academic intrest should know by now that, unless you are doing a sport, you need to learn a Holostic martial art, that is one that covers everything or is a good enough base to dip into everything from. Or at least most. You are obvously going to favour striking or grappling, or be better than one or the other, or you could even favour and prefer weapons. It doesnt mean you shouldnt be compotent in all aspects of martial arts. And also allows you to dip into relivent supplimtory material, like running, strenghr training and things like that. (you never know when you might slip or need to crawl under or behind something, its relivent if you think you may get shot at)

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I think the lesson was: striker without grappling defence has less chances than grappler without striking defence.

Not fully. The issue with the first UFC's (in terms of grappling beating striking) was that striking is more popular/known. So both grapplers and strikers have experience fighting strikers and testing their stuff against strikers/knowing what works. Meanwhile only grapplers had experience (for the most part) going against strikers. It was the people that had both that did well.

If the original UFC was filled with grapplers that never did anything with a striker, the results might have been more balanced.

 

[Steve]

Not according to the stats...

How MMA fights end: Submission victories way down

How have UFC fights changed in recent years? Reed Kuhn breaks down each key trend to determine where the sport is headed.

www.espn.com

I still say it has more to do with who was better at dictating what type of fight it was.

I may not have been clear, but what you're saying doesn't conflict with what I wrote. My point was that in the UFC and other elite organizations, even the weakest grapplers are still competent grapplers, and even the weakest strikers are still competent strikers. You don't get to the apex of the sport without being functional in all three phases of combat (striking, clinching, and grappling). You may have weaknesses, but those weaknesses are relative to other elite level fighters.

Just as a relevant aside, related to the article, a ground and pound victory is considered a TKO, but relies heavily on grappling skills. Grappling isn't just submissions, though submissions are certainly a clear grappling victory.

 

[Steve]

Not fully. The issue with the first UFC's (in terms of grappling beating striking) was that striking is more popular/known. So both grapplers and strikers have experience fighting strikers and testing their stuff against strikers/knowing what works. Meanwhile only grapplers had experience (for the most part) going against strikers. It was the people that had both that did well.

If the original UFC was filled with grapplers that never did anything with a striker, the results might have been more balanced.

I don't think "familiarity" was really a factor. This could be easily tested, but absent that, I will just reiterate that as a simple function of opportunity, the striker with no grappling skill has one chance to avoid disaster. You can't fake grappling skill. once the grappler has you in his or her mitts, all other things being equal, you are in deep trouble. A grappler who gets you on the ground can punch you, even if he is doing it 'wrong.'

 

[WaterGal]

I think the lesson was: striker without grappling defence has less chances than grappler without striking defence.

That's what I meant, yeah. Someone who knows only grappling is, all else being equal, probably going to beat someone who only knows striking.

Now, in OP's hypothetical scenario, things aren't equal - he's bigger than her and male, but she's far more experienced/skilled. I think we can reasonably say that some amount of skill balances out some amount of size, though that's a bit hard to quantify.

 

[Alan0354]

Is judo effective in a real fight? Who would win if an elite female judoka (105lb) against a bigger untrained guy (150lb) in a real fight?

I spent 9 months learning judo when I was young. I don't think judo by itself is a good self defense training. It just lack a lot of things, it's not complete. Sparing starts with two people holding the sleeve with one hand and the ghee with the other. Which is nothing like real fight. Judo concentrate on throwing opponent to the ground, which, by itself, is NOT incapacitating. You just get up and attack again!!!

More importantly, don't believe a word that you don't need strength to throw people down. Strength is very important in judo.

So back to the question. Depends on how strong is the girl, if she is a nail polisher, forget it. If she is strong, she would be able to pull the guy in and throw him on the ground. This also depends on how strong is the guy. If the guy is strong and can resist being throw around, the girl will have a hard time throwing him down.


BUT NOW: If you combine judo with some other striking MA, then it becomes more useful. Also, judo can be useful and can save your day. You learn how to fall on the ground. You likely will not be hurt if you trip and fall if you know judo. You might laugh at this, but if you are old and you have a fall, it can be a big deal. I remember one time it might saved me from seriously injury. Long story short, I fell down from a truck when I was unloading. It was high, I landed on my back. From judo training, I automatically tuck my head forward. The shock pulled my head back, I could feel my hair touching the concrete ground, but I did not hit my head. I was bruise up bad, but my head was ok!! I broke the fall, it was like 5 or 6ft down in the air!!!

Till today, once a week, I practice falling and break the fall on concrete floor to shake up my old bones and keep it in shape.

Conclusion, I would say it's worthy to practice like 6 months to learn the basics, then evaluate how much you can combine with your other MA.

 

[wab25]

I may not have been clear, but what you're saying doesn't conflict with what I wrote. My point was that in the UFC and other elite organizations, even the weakest grapplers are still competent grapplers, and even the weakest strikers are still competent strikers. You don't get to the apex of the sport without being functional in all three phases of combat (striking, clinching, and grappling). You may have weaknesses, but those weaknesses are relative to other elite level fighters.

I guess we differ on what is considered "competent." I do not consider Ronda Rousey as a "competent striker," at all.

In a contest between a competent striker and a competent grappler (all other things being equal), the grappler wins that pretty much every time, in my opinion. The striker would have a very limited opportunity to end it quickly, and outside of that is screwed.

Unless you feel that Demian Maia is not a competent grappler... The boxer, TKD and Muay Thai fighter was able to defeat him quite easily, by determining the type of fighting that was taking place. Had Demian been able to make this a ground fight, I have no doubt that he would have worked over Silva quite easily. The problem was that Demian was unable to set the rules of the fight.

The other issue is the idea that the striker has a "limited opportunity to end it." Too many times the striker has fallen for this way of thinking. It causes the striker to swing for the fences, going all or nothing on one strike. It means that the strike is telegraphed, and that the striker is going to over extend his strike going off balance. This does favor the grappler. But proper striking says that you set up your knock out strikes. You use foot work to control range and get angles. See the fight above, where Silva uses foot work and angles to maintain the distance he wants. Even when Maia "gets his mits on him" Maia uses proper foot work and proper stance to disengage. The striker does not have a limited time to end it. The striker must use his foot work, his angles and movement to maintain the right distance for the type of fight that they want. This is the same thing they should do against another striker.

Its not down to what style it is... it is down to who can set the type of fight it is, and how much heart does each fighter have. If Maia could have made it a ground fight, he wins. But, Maia could not do that, Silva was able to make it a stand up striking fight. I am not sure I would call Maia a competent striker either... Both these guys are amazing at their own type of fighting... but Silva was able to determine what type of fight they had.

 

[wab25]

Sparing starts with two people holding the sleeve with one hand and the ghee with the other.

This is incorrect.

Judo concentrate on throwing opponent to the ground, which, by itself, is NOT incapacitating.

For trained Judoka landing on a mat... it is not incapacitating... until it is. Kimura would throw Judo champions with o soto gari, on Judo mats and gave them concussions. Most people, when thrown full force by a Judo player, even on a mat, will not get right back up. (Most Judo players will not throw newbies and beginners that hard... they are nice folks and if they break people on the first day, they have no one to practice with...) There are videos on youtube of real Judo throws being used in real fights. (I would post some, I have in the past, but they now all require adult sign in to watch) When done on sidewalks, asphalt or tile... it usually results in a KO if the guy lands on his head. If they miss the head, they have problems just breathing, and don't usually get back up.

Judo also focuses on choking. They are quite good at choking people out, which tends to end fights fairly quickly too.

 

[Steve]

I guess we differ on what is considered "competent." I do not consider Ronda Rousey as a "competent striker," at all.

Relative to whom? I would not consider her competent relative to other elite mixed martial artists. But compared to you or me or 99.9% of other people? Her striking skill is more than sufficient.

 

[r.d.mcdaniel]

I'm a 165 lb. male with a Shodan in Kyokushin and former high school wrestler. I pretty sure that Rhonda Rousey would kick my ***.

 

[lklawson]

I spent 9 months learning judo when I was young. I don't think judo by itself is a good self defense training. It just lack a lot of things, it's not complete.

From 9 whole months worth of training. Amazing!

Sparing starts with two people holding the sleeve with one hand and the ghee with the other.

It does?

Which is nothing like real fight.

It's not?

Judo concentrate on throwing opponent to the ground, which, by itself, is NOT incapacitating. You just get up and attack again!!!

Tell me more.

More importantly, don't believe a word that you don't need strength to throw people down. Strength is very important in judo.

So back to the question. Depends on how strong is the girl, if she is a nail polisher, forget it. If she is strong, she would be able to pull the guy in and throw him on the ground. This also depends on how strong is the guy. If the guy is strong and can resist being throw around, the girl will have a hard time throwing him down.


BUT NOW: If you combine judo with some other striking MA, then it becomes more useful. Also, judo can be useful and can save your day. You learn how to fall on the ground. You likely will not be hurt if you trip and fall if you know judo. You might laugh at this, but if you are old and you have a fall, it can be a big deal. I remember one time it might saved me from seriously injury. Long story short, I fell down from a truck when I was unloading. It was high, I landed on my back. From judo training, I automatically tuck my head forward. The shock pulled my head back, I could feel my hair touching the concrete ground, but I did not hit my head. I was bruise up bad, but my head was ok!! I broke the fall, it was like 5 or 6ft down in the air!!!

Till today, once a week, I practice falling and break the fall on concrete floor to shake up my old bones and keep it in shape.

Conclusion, I would say it's worthy to practice like 6 months to learn the basics, then evaluate how much you can combine with your other MA.

You're entertaining.

 

[Ironbear24]

Is judo effective in a real fight? Who would win if an elite female judoka (105lb) against a bigger untrained guy (150lb) in a real fight?

All the facetious responses you've gotten aside, Yes Judo is effective in a real fight, more important anytime you have a someone with training vs someone with no training, the odds will he in favor of the person with training.

 

[wab25]

Relative to whom? I would not consider her competent relative to other elite mixed martial artists. But compared to you or me or 99.9% of other people? Her striking skill is more than sufficient.

Not exactly the example of great or even good striking skills:

Both of her opponents would get destroyed by Ronda, if she could make it into a grappling match. But she couldn't. And her striking skills, were sub par at best. No foot work, no guard, no jab, no straight punches of any sort, no head movement, telegraphing each punch, leading with her face... I could go on. Pick any boxer... they would win in a striking match... pro, amateur, college, the gal that works out and spars at the boxing club... All your Muay Thai fighters, kickboxing fighters, a good number of TKD and Karate fighters as well (as long as they have contact fighting experience). Now, if she could get it to a grappling match, then Ronda wins most of those fights... but it is not her striking skill... its her ability to force the fight that she wants. She ran into two gals that she could not force into a grappling match and got KOed. But in a pure striking match, she does not even come up to the amateur or club level strikers in most any town you find. It is her Judo skills, and athleticism that makes her special.

 

[Steve]

All the facetious responses you've gotten aside, Yes Judo is effective in a real fight, more important anytime you have a someone with training vs someone with no training, the odds will he in favor of the person with training.

Mostly, I agree. In general, a person with realistic training will perform better than a person who is untrained.

I do think it's very possible (and in some cases, probable) that a person can be less capable of defending him or herself as a direct result of unrealistic training. In the video below, you have a person who has clearly been told he is exceptionally talented.


You can easily find dozens of similar auditions, and in all of them, you can see the cognitive dissonance when they are confronted with real, honest feedback. This is just one example.

Fighting works the same way. In the absence of honest, realistic feedback, people start getting the wrong impression. The major difference is that in the case of American Idol, the consequence is humiliation. In the case of a fight, the consequences are more painful.

 

[Steve]

Not exactly the example of great or even good striking skills:

Both of her opponents would get destroyed by Ronda, if she could make it into a grappling match. But she couldn't. And her striking skills, were sub par at best. No foot work, no guard, no jab, no straight punches of any sort, no head movement, telegraphing each punch, leading with her face... I could go on. Pick any boxer... they would win in a striking match... pro, amateur, college, the gal that works out and spars at the boxing club... All your Muay Thai fighters, kickboxing fighters, a good number of TKD and Karate fighters as well (as long as they have contact fighting experience). Now, if she could get it to a grappling match, then Ronda wins most of those fights... but it is not her striking skill... its her ability to force the fight that she wants. She ran into two gals that she could not force into a grappling match and got KOed. But in a pure striking match, she does not even come up to the amateur or club level strikers in most any town you find. It is her Judo skills, and athleticism that makes her special.

Dude. You're just not getting my point. I'll chalk it up to me not being able to explain it well enough.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

All the facetious responses you've gotten aside, Yes Judo is effective in a real fight, more important anytime you have a someone with training vs someone with no training, the odds will he in favor of the person with training.

Unrelated to the thread, but welcome back to the site! Hope you've been well. (Can't recall when I changed my username-likely after you left. I was kempodisciple)