- Thread Starter
- #21
This is true, but I just didn't personally think I deserved what he suggested. It doesn't show disrespect, my grandmaster respects whatever it is that I want to do.
Double Promoting
- Thread starter nipper219
- Start date
- Thread Starter
- #22
I do trust his judgement in most cases. I think double promotion isn't necessary and honestly shouldn't be a thing.
- Thread Starter
- #23
Not really. If I don't want it then I don't have to. So, not entirely up to him.
- Thread Starter
- #24
Well, there's always gonna be people who have not experienced martial arts before; there is only one way to learn it. Start learning. So you shouldn't be biased against beginners.
I'm not biased against beginners. I've no issue training with someone who has 1 month experience, nor do I have any issue training with someone who has 6 months experience (and FYI to me, both of those people are beginners). But what I expect from them, the amount of force I use, the tactics I use in sparring, and any advice I give them, will be more appropriate to their experience, if I know what that experience is.
Just realized, you may have been responding to "Ultimately, I'm not a fan for people who have not experienced martial arts before". I wasn't saying I'm not a fan of people who haven't trained, or won't work with them. I was saying that I'm not a fan of newcomers skipping belts at the beginning, because of the reasons listed after/in my last post. I love newcomers to any MA.
skribs
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OP, it sounds like one of two things are happening with you. Or maybe a bit of both.
The first is imposter syndrome. This is from quotes such as this:
In martial arts, this is very common when people rank up and then feel they don't measure up. Maybe they got a blue belt in BJJ and all of a sudden everyone rolls harder, so it feels like they're worse. Or they got moved into the advanced class in Taekwondo where there's a ton of new moves that they struggle with, where previously they were doing well with the beginner moves. Or you're getting ready for your yellow belt test and you think you're not ready because you haven't mastered the moves, but the instructor merely expects you to have yellow-belt-level technique to get your yellow belt.
This is why people keep saying to trust your GM. Let me put it to you this way. I've assessed literally hundreds of students for eligibility for each belt test; thousands of total individual assessments if you add up all of the belts. I am not a grandmaster. I am not even a master. I assume your GM has done way more than I have for way longer than I have. Assessing students for belt tests is a skill he has honed, just as he has honed his martial arts skills. This is why we say to trust him.
The second is an ego-driven, rebellious sentiment, as can be seen in the following:
Because these are mixed in with the imposter syndrome quotes above, it also colors our impression of those quotes as well. It sounds like you have a higher standard for each belt than your GM does. You are holding yourself to those standards instead of what he does. This is where the ego comes in. Your ego says that a green belt should be X, but your GM says a green belt should be Y. Instead of trying to figure out what Y is, you're criticizing your GM for not being X.
The rebellious sentiment gets worse here:
My experience with this more has to do with young kids who only want to do the games and don't want to train, or older kids who want to do the opposite. Or discussions online with young adults who only want to do the kicks and skip the rest of class, because they think that's all Taekwondo is useful for.
If you want to do what you want, then start your own school. If you want to learn from your GM, then trust that he knows what he's doing. He's promoted a lot more people to yellow or green belt than you have. He probably has a good idea of how to do so. I personally have things that I dislike about my Taekwondo organization. However, I'm going to do things their way until I learn enough to separate from them.
The first is imposter syndrome. This is from quotes such as this:
Imposter Syndrome is when you don't feel you actually deserve something you have. For example, you get a promotion at work, and then everything is new to you, so you don't feel you know what you're doing, and wonder if you were "promoted to your level of incompetence".
In martial arts, this is very common when people rank up and then feel they don't measure up. Maybe they got a blue belt in BJJ and all of a sudden everyone rolls harder, so it feels like they're worse. Or they got moved into the advanced class in Taekwondo where there's a ton of new moves that they struggle with, where previously they were doing well with the beginner moves. Or you're getting ready for your yellow belt test and you think you're not ready because you haven't mastered the moves, but the instructor merely expects you to have yellow-belt-level technique to get your yellow belt.
This is why people keep saying to trust your GM. Let me put it to you this way. I've assessed literally hundreds of students for eligibility for each belt test; thousands of total individual assessments if you add up all of the belts. I am not a grandmaster. I am not even a master. I assume your GM has done way more than I have for way longer than I have. Assessing students for belt tests is a skill he has honed, just as he has honed his martial arts skills. This is why we say to trust him.
The second is an ego-driven, rebellious sentiment, as can be seen in the following:
This is essentially saying that you have a better idea of the qualifications to be a green belt than your instructor does. You, who are not yet a green belt, are better at judging what a green belt is than the man who's probably graded thousands of green belt tests in his career.
Because these are mixed in with the imposter syndrome quotes above, it also colors our impression of those quotes as well. It sounds like you have a higher standard for each belt than your GM does. You are holding yourself to those standards instead of what he does. This is where the ego comes in. Your ego says that a green belt should be X, but your GM says a green belt should be Y. Instead of trying to figure out what Y is, you're criticizing your GM for not being X.
The rebellious sentiment gets worse here:
I don't know if there are many Taekwondo GMs that will tolerate "If I don't want to then I don't have to." Especially from a white belt. That's not how the culture works. There's leniency for bad attitudes at earlier belts, but in general, "I don't want to so I won't do it" is not the right answer.
My experience with this more has to do with young kids who only want to do the games and don't want to train, or older kids who want to do the opposite. Or discussions online with young adults who only want to do the kicks and skip the rest of class, because they think that's all Taekwondo is useful for.
If you want to do what you want, then start your own school. If you want to learn from your GM, then trust that he knows what he's doing. He's promoted a lot more people to yellow or green belt than you have. He probably has a good idea of how to do so. I personally have things that I dislike about my Taekwondo organization. However, I'm going to do things their way until I learn enough to separate from them.
There's a difference between beginners who have all the questions and beginners who have all the answers. We want people to come in and start learning. We don't want to gatekeep people coming in and asking questions. However, the problem is when beginners act like they are an authority in martial arts. It takes authority in a system to decide what the curriculum is or who is ready for promotion. That authority comes from experience, which you quite simply don't have. Which is why we're saying to trust someone who does (your GM).
skribs
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The ironic thing is that the punishment for disrespecting the master (or GM in this case) is usually that you're held back from testing. I don't know that this punishment would hold much weight in this circumstance. Maybe triple promote as punishment?
- Thread Starter
- #29
Oh, well sometimes it’s good to skip belts that low since say a new white belt came in with some prior skills and knowledge; you then would be holding them back from the skills they could be learning by only single promoting them.
Yes. Which is why i originally asked if you had prior experience, and specified that if you do not, then I don't agree with it. If a karate black belt went to a tkd school like yours, i have no issues with them being ranked appropriately.
skribs
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But would they have been appropriately skilled for a green belt if they waited a year?
My TKD Master would have been one hell of a green belt. My BJJ professor would be one hell of a blue belt. But something tells me that's not the right color for them.
Good for you for wanting to complete learning experience.
A few things to understand:
1. GM's can do what they want.
2. You and your instructor if not GM could discuss with him your issues / concern.
3. If the average time for the first couple of belts is 2 to 3 months so 4 to 5 months training and you have the time and the skill then you skipped wearing a yellow belt or first belt.
4. If #3 is true, ask the instructor if the delayed testing is normal and if it is there could be more double promotions in the future.
5. Other than concern of missing the training experience do you think you are missing anything?
If so review with the instructor and understand you may not be at a black belt level for the technique, yet you might be at a green belt for the technique
6. Do you have training in other arts ?
a. If so is it a similar art from the same country / style or sister style / organization? This could lead to some basics be very similar and why one might be at a Green Belt level with less than the normal classes. * See Number #2 now *
b. If from completely different systems / organizations then it could be you learned quickly from your other training.
7. I would be less concerned with double promotions early on if any of the above is even close to having some truth.
Good Luck
MadMartigan
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Last year I had a new student that jumped right into learning with both feet. He was practicing at home, and even learned the 2nd pattern within his first few weeks. It didn't take him long to get a solid grasp on all the White belt and most of the Yellow Stripe material before he had opportunity to test.
Given the trajectory he was on, I made the decision to double promote him straight to Yellow Belt. This was partially in recognition of his hard work, and partially to put him at a level where he would continue to be challenged.
Unfortunately, this was just before Christmas break in 2021, and right before a lot of panic set in around new variations of a certain prolific illness. While I stayed open, he never made it back to another class.
Was his reason for not returning concerns for his health, or did receiving a double promotion somehow subconsciously cheapen the process for him? I may never really know; but I do know I will be far less likely to do the same thing again in similar circumstances.
Given the trajectory he was on, I made the decision to double promote him straight to Yellow Belt. This was partially in recognition of his hard work, and partially to put him at a level where he would continue to be challenged.
Unfortunately, this was just before Christmas break in 2021, and right before a lot of panic set in around new variations of a certain prolific illness. While I stayed open, he never made it back to another class.
Was his reason for not returning concerns for his health, or did receiving a double promotion somehow subconsciously cheapen the process for him? I may never really know; but I do know I will be far less likely to do the same thing again in similar circumstances.
Tigerwarrior
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Happened to me in judo once. A long time ago. Normally it went from white to yellow then green then brown then black. I skipped yellow and tested for green. I trained for 9 months for that before testing though. So was a white belt longer than most yellow belts normally would wait.
isshinryuronin
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I must confess, I'm confused about all the discussion regarding this topic. I see two possible main scenarios: First is assuming the instructor is knowledgeable and skilled. If so, he had good reason to promote you and case closed! Be appreciative and work hard to justify his confidence in you. Perhaps you are advancing faster than normal in some fashion. Even though you may be missing a technique or two, or even an entire form, it could be that what you do know is being done at a high level. Maybe he is impressed by your work ethic and effort. There are intangibles to consider. IMO, a good instructor should not be bound strictly by curriculum, using his experience and knowledge to base his decision upon. It is an art.
The second scenario is that the instructor is less than exemplary and does not place much value on his student's rank, having less pride in his product than others. These days, when the MA community is so large, there is less peer pressure on the instructor to be conscientious and uphold high standards. If this is the case, work hard to achieve the skill level you feel is right for the new belt.
I do not like automatic promotions based on a set time frame. Promotions should be more subjective as I touched upon above. As a mid-level beginner, my sensei skipped me one full belt - and I wasn't even formally tested! I had been coming in to work out alone almost every afternoon during high school summer vacation. One day at the end of summer Sensei said to show him my four kata. Afterword he said I'm now a blue belt. Of course, he had been taking note of me throughout the summer.
I also skipped a mid dan rank. I had no instructor for many years but still took it upon myself to keep up my skills. After meeting a high-level renown sensei and training (old school) INTENSIVELY for close to three years as a private student, I got my new rank . Time in grade and overall skill was a consideration, but more importantly, I acquired a high level of knowledge and understanding of my art, which I have come to realize is equal or greater to others of that same rank.
If one is a serious student, it is no big thing to get a rank you may feel is a bit higher than you deserve. It's good to be humble. One should have a higher expectation of oneself than others may place upon us. A true student of the art should use this as motivation to achieve and grow into the rank that was given. Regardless of how esteemed one's teacher is, we are the ones who internalize it and be responsible to our own heart.
The second scenario is that the instructor is less than exemplary and does not place much value on his student's rank, having less pride in his product than others. These days, when the MA community is so large, there is less peer pressure on the instructor to be conscientious and uphold high standards. If this is the case, work hard to achieve the skill level you feel is right for the new belt.
I do not like automatic promotions based on a set time frame. Promotions should be more subjective as I touched upon above. As a mid-level beginner, my sensei skipped me one full belt - and I wasn't even formally tested! I had been coming in to work out alone almost every afternoon during high school summer vacation. One day at the end of summer Sensei said to show him my four kata. Afterword he said I'm now a blue belt. Of course, he had been taking note of me throughout the summer.
I also skipped a mid dan rank. I had no instructor for many years but still took it upon myself to keep up my skills. After meeting a high-level renown sensei and training (old school) INTENSIVELY for close to three years as a private student, I got my new rank . Time in grade and overall skill was a consideration, but more importantly, I acquired a high level of knowledge and understanding of my art, which I have come to realize is equal or greater to others of that same rank.
If one is a serious student, it is no big thing to get a rank you may feel is a bit higher than you deserve. It's good to be humble. One should have a higher expectation of oneself than others may place upon us. A true student of the art should use this as motivation to achieve and grow into the rank that was given. Regardless of how esteemed one's teacher is, we are the ones who internalize it and be responsible to our own heart.
- Thread Starter
- #38
How would triple promoting be a punishment? That is a very big accomplishment. While it is awesome its wrong, but still how would that be a punishment??
skribs
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Punishments tend to be things people don't want. If you don't want extra promotions, then more promotions would be a punishment.
And if you keep mouthing off, I'm going to promote you four ranks!
