Don't tell them you know martial arts

[drop bear]

Using a choke here is considered 'attempted murder' under some circumstances. All my security mates have been told never to choke. As to your 'finishing moves in various arts' being chokes or neck breaks ... spot on.

Or punch,or push,or sit on a guy for too long,

I think security guards can now use firm words. But I am not sure.

 

[jks9199]

I should have said can be predatory. If we take sex as a resource then we take the whole range of emotional fulfillment as one.

Bullies don't need an escalation to comit violence.

Sex in this context isn't "she's into me and I might get laid later if she sees how manly I am"; it's rape.

 

[drop bear]

Sex in this context isn't "she's into me and I might get laid later if she sees how manly I am"; it's rape.

So the guy who gets shut down and manufactures a fight to sooth his hurry hurt feelings is not being predatory.

 

[jks9199]

So the guy who gets shut down and manufactures a fight to sooth his hurry hurt feelings is not being predatory.

Not in this context. Look at it this way: Predatory violence is asocial. It's going go happen whether there is someone to see it or not. In fact, is are that predatory violence will not have witnesses, while any Monkey Dance, no matter how targeted, is really all about the people there to see it. A guy gets shut down and starts a fight -- what's its really about? Satisfying his sense of manhood, no? Will it happier if he's alone? About the one my way I see that turning asocial is if he waits in the parking lot and jumps the guy who did get the girl. ..

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[drop bear]

Not in this context. Look at it this way: Predatory violence is asocial. It's going go happen whether there is someone to see it or not. In fact, is are that predatory violence will not have witnesses, while any Monkey Dance, no matter how targeted, is really all about the people there to see it. A guy gets shut down and starts a fight -- what's its really about? Satisfying his sense of manhood, no? Will it happier if he's alone? About the one my way I see that turning asocial is if he waits in the parking lot and jumps the guy who did get the girl. ..

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Which happens as well.

Knockout game. Predatory or monkey dance? How is it de-escalated.

 

[jks9199]

Which happens as well.

Knockout game. Predatory or monkey dance? How is it de-escalated.

Variation of the Group Monkey Dance. It's done for the spectators., not to acquire any resource. One of the few times you can't really deescalate through contact and have to rely our recognition, deterance, or axoidance.

 

[drop bear]

Varia r of the Group Monkey Dance. It's done for the spectators., not to acquire any resource. One of the few times you can't really deescalate through contact and have to rely our recognition, deterance, or axoidance.

Bullying predatory or monkey dance?

 

[BMhadoken]

Which happens as well.

Knockout game. Predatory or monkey dance? How is it de-escalated.

Group monkey dance, closest. You de escalate it by not being there. Change course, cross the street, do whatever you need to deny them attack positioning. If they're too determined then you hit first and hard the moment the kid cocks back, and you can at least justify to the cops why that was necessary.

And most bullying is purely monkey dance. It's all about claiming the respect (or fear) of everyone watching.

 

[oftheherd1]

I think you'll find that there is a clear link established between chokes and later deaths. Even with a properly applied choke there is always a chance that plaque can be dislodged from the wall of the carotid artery. That is probably more likely in older people but I remember years back they did research looking at the arteries of young guys killed in Vietnam and found most of them had the beginnings of coronary artery disease.

The thing I would be most worried about though is the badly applied choke like the NY cop was attempting recently where the guy died later in police custody. The vagus nerve is very close to the carotid artery. It is the nerve that controls the heartbeat. If it is damaged the heart can have all sorts of irregular beats develop or tachycardia. If medical treatment is available it may not be an issue but if you are left unattended in the back of a police vehicle anything can go wrong.

You are right. My post was poorly worded. What I meant was that I did't think they had found a specific link. Stimulation of the vagus nerves would no doubt be a likely suspect.

Maybe Dirty Dog could add some knowledge.

 

[Hanzou]

So, as usual, you avoid the question being asked and take off down another burrow.

You claimed people teaching self defence were advocating using a stomp to the head or chest as a finishing technique and I asked you to provide an example because, quite frankly, that is a ridiculous assertion. Anyone teaching self defence would know that it is no longer self defence to stomp on someone's neck or head if the threat has passed. I specifically asked you not to quote combatives. Then you post a Krav video.

So punches to the head, or foot stomps to the head are not being advocated in this Krav Maga self defense video?

But let me address this new assertion.
"In other words, you're more likely to kill someone from those self defense finishing moves you see in Krav Maga, Karate, etc. Than from a choke hold."

Basically your statement is true ... except that those techniques have very little to do with self defence. But of course you already know that.

Your statement is as nonsensical as me saying that punches, kicks or elbow strikes to the head in an MMA competition are more likely to cause permanent brain damage than a choke. The statement is true but it has no place in the discussion.

The discussion revolved around chokes being used as a finishing move, and their inherent danger. I was pointing out that chokes are in fact less dangerous to their intended target that punches or kicks to the head of a person laying on the ground. I'm failing to see what sports or competition has to do with any of this. I was using sport examples to show cases of people really being choked out, and suffering no long term side effects.

 

[BMhadoken]

So punches to the head, or foot stomps to the head are not being advocated in this Krav Maga self defense video?

Any instructor that advocates kicking or stomping a downed foe on the head or neck is telling you to commit a felony. That is not legal self defense. At all. Ever.

 

[Hanzou]

You can't "fully control the outcome" of a choke hold, either. You don't know if they person has some invisible, inherent condition like an aneurism, damaged trachea, weak heart, or even just brain trauma from drinking or a ton of concussions, that might cause their death. Guess what, you're liable and responsible for it. "You take your victim as you find them" is a legal maxim...

If a person has an aneurysm, damaged trachea, weak heart, or a brain issue, I seriously doubt they would be attacking you in a street encounter in the first place.

Well, y'know, that just might be why they're called "finishing moves..." Finishing is kind of the intent... But it doesn't remove a choke hold from being considered lethal force. (In fact, I'd swear some of those finishing moves in various arts are chokes or neck breaks...)

Again, I've applied numerous choke holds in my time within Bjj against a wide variety of people. In some cases, people were actually choked out because they didn't realize that the choke had been put on before its too late. To date, there's been no deaths, and no one has suffered any long term brain damage. In the end though, its better to be judged by 9 than carried by 6. If I need to stop someone, I will apply a choke. It's simply too effective to not use.

 

[Hanzou]

Any instructor that advocates kicking or stomping a downed foe on the head or neck is telling you to commit a felony. That is not legal self defense. At all. Ever.

You're talking to the choir my friend. I advocate a gentle choke over bludgeoning someone in the head over and over again.

Savage (and hilarious).

 

[jks9199]

Any instructor that advocates kicking or stomping a downed foe on the head or neck is telling you to commit a felony. That is not legal self defense. At all. Ever.

Nope; I can easily conceive of circumstances that might justify it. (What if they have a gun... and that's just the biggest, easiest.) Just like I can justify shooting someone in the back. The key in instructing self defense is to give the students the tools to be able to respond appropriately in the moment -- with no more force than is reasonably necessary to allow them to safely resolve the situation and escape.

 

[Hanzou]

Nope; I can easily conceive of circumstances that might justify it. (What if they have a gun... and that's just the biggest, easiest.) Just like I can justify shooting someone in the back. The key in instructing self defense is to give the students the tools to be able to respond appropriately in the moment -- with no more force than is reasonably necessary to allow them to safely resolve the situation and escape.

Throwing someone to the ground, smashing them in the side of the head, and then axe kick them in the head while they're down. Looks like a great great way to resolve a situation.

 

[Transk53]

Throwing someone to the ground, smashing them in the side of the head, and then axe kick them in the head while they're down. Looks like a great great way to resolve a situation.

Yeah good luck in the Orange suit!

 

[Dirty Dog]

Any instructor that advocates kicking or stomping a downed foe on the head or neck is telling you to commit a felony. That is not legal self defense. At all. Ever.

Really? What if you do it because you can already see his buddy coming at you from another angle? What if he's on the ground, but has a gun?

While situations warranting this sort of action are probably the exception, they certainly do exist.

 

[pgsmith]

Yeah good luck in the Orange suit!

That's one of the advantages of living in Texas. They're pretty free on how you can respond if attacked.

 

[jks9199]

Throwing someone to the ground, smashing them in the side of the head, and then axe kick them in the head while they're down. Looks like a great great way to resolve a situation.

Just curious... Did you actually read my post? Did anything I wrote say that it was automatically okay, or even generally acceptable? I don't believe so. I believe I said that there could be circumstances which would justify extreme moves. And, incidentally, I'll again note that a chokehold stands a VERY high likelihood of being found to be lethal force in many circumstances. In the clip you've got here, you wouldn't be justified in choking the guy on the ground, either. He's down, not posing any further threat.

Maybe, just maybe, there's a whole world of self defense beyond chokes and BJJ. Maybe there are a lot of issues beyond the mere physical technique used in any use of force. I mean, it's not like I'm not just slightly knowledgeable in the issues of use of force. Being an instructor in LE firearms and LE defensive tactics, as well as an experienced officer and field trainer.,

 

[K-man]

So punches to the head, or foot stomps to the head are not being advocated in this Krav Maga self defense video?

Perhaps you should turn the volume on when you watch these videos, that is assuming you watched it at all. The guy did say to use two punches to the head to finish 'if needed'. Now obviously you have not taught self defence or been taught self defence. If you had any experience in that field you would know that you can use commensurate force, and you can take whatever action is necessary to remove the threat. That is exactly what was advocated.

The discussion revolved around chokes being used as a finishing move, and their inherent danger. I was pointing out that chokes are in fact less dangerous to their intended target that punches or kicks to the head of a person laying on the ground. I'm failing to see what sports or competition has to do with any of this. I was using sport examples to show cases of people really being choked out, and suffering no long term side effects.

In sports with referees there is little danger from chokes. In the real world there is every chance you will go to jail if you use a choke inappropriately. Unless my life was at risk I wouldn't do either kicks to the head, stomps or chokes. If my life was in danger I would do what ever necessary. That is what I teach and that is what the law allows.