Don't tell them you know martial arts

[Drose427]

That must be quite the line, considering that there's been innumerable people choked out in Judo and Bjj both in randori and competition for the better part of a century. I've yet to hear of a single case where someone has died or experienced brain damage from getting choked out while performing Bjj or Judo chokes.

Heres 2 from a RNC

Man killed friend with rear naked choke hold - News - The Times-Tribune
Man 24 killed by his cousin 14 from a chokehold they did while watching Wrestlemania Daily Mail Online

Surely you remember the Eric Garner drama, RNC was used there

folks trying to re-enact or use chokes and having severe repurcussoins isnt a rarity.

You're either playing ignorant, or ignoring it to make grappling sound safer

 

[Hanzou]

Heres 2 from a RNC

Man killed friend with rear naked choke hold - News - The Times-Tribune
Man 24 killed by his cousin 14 from a chokehold they did while watching Wrestlemania Daily Mail Online

Surely you remember the Eric Garner drama, RNC was used there

folks trying to re-enact or use chokes and having severe repurcussoins isnt a rarity.

You're either playing ignorant, or ignoring it to make grappling sound safer

I was talking about people actually trained to choke, not drunken idiots imitating chokes they see on tv.

Also Garner died from several guys sitting on his chest while he was getting choked, not the choke itself.

 

[Drose427]

I was talking about people actually trained to choke, not drunken idiots imitating chokes they see on tv.

Also Garner died from several guys sitting on his chest while he was getting choked, not the choke itself.

Yes, because in a controlled, safe environment people let go, and people usually tap long before starting to lose consciousness. Or the ref ends it and they get broken up.

All it takes is to hold on for a few extra seconds and damage absolutely starts to set in.

I dont know of any fighter whos been killed by a ground and pound, Can I assume theres not a fine line between getting the KO and denting someones skull until theyre dead?

People dont die in Comps because of Tapouts, refs, and Sportsmanship.

None of which exist outside of it.

 

[Hanzou]

Yes, because in a controlled, safe environment people let go, and people usually tap long before starting to lose consciousness. Or the ref ends it and they get broken up.

All it takes is to hold on for a few extra seconds and damage absolutely starts to set in.

I dont know of any fighter whos been killed by a ground and pound, Can I assume theres not a fine line between getting the KO and denting someones skull until theyre dead?

People dont die in Comps because of Tapouts, refs, and Sportsmanship.

None of which exist outside of it.

Nonsense. It takes far more than a "few seconds after unconsciousness" to do real damage to someone, and people getting continually choked after passing out has occurred plenty of times in competition, and they came out just fine. Machida vs Jones is a prime example. I've personally choked out plenty of guys who failed to tap, and were already unconscious when I released the hold. They're just fine.

In order to do real damage you need to hold the choke long after consciousness is lost. More in the realm of 15-20 seconds after the loss of consciousness depending on the physical condition of the person getting choked.However, brain damage or death instantly after passing out? BS.

Additionally you get cues to when to release a choke outside of just tap outs. Someone going limp is a pretty good indicator that your opponent is taking a nap.

In terms of ground and pound, you've never heard of it in the octagon, but it definitely happens on the street when your head is smacking concrete over and over again, or if someone is socking you in the head over and over again while your head is smacking the concrete.

 

[Drose427]

Nonsense. It takes far more than a "few seconds after unconsciousness" to do real damage to someone, and people get choked way after passing out had occurred plenty of times in competition, and they came out just fine. Machida vs Jones is a prime example. I've personally choked out plenty of guys who failed to tap, and we're already unconscious when I released the hold. They're just fine.

In order to do real damage you need to hold the choke long after consciousness is lost. More in the realm of 15-20 seconds after the loss of consciousness depending on the physical conditionHowever, brain damage or death instantly after passing out? BS.

Additionally you get cues to when to release a choke outside of just tap outs. Someone going limp is a pretty good indicator that your opponent is taking a nap.

In terms of ground and pound, you've never heard of it in the octagon, but it definitely happens on the street when your head is smacking concrete over and over again, or if someone is socking you in the head over and over again while your head is smacking the concrete.

Again, you let them go.

You looked for cues

If that guy on the street is gonna pound your head on the sidewalk (which he obviously will,) long after you're going limp, why would he magically let go of a choke?

Nobody said its immediate after losing consciousness, but again, on the street no ones there to stop it like in the ring.

You're last paragraph sums up the point pretty well if you change ground and pound to chokes.

 

[Hanzou]

Again, you let them go.

You looked for cues

If that guy on the street is gonna pound your head on the sidewalk (which he obviously will,) long after you're going limp, why would he magically let go of a choke?

Ah I see, you misread my original post.

That figures....

I'm not talking about some untrained thug choking someone to purposely do harm to them. I'm talking about someone trained in choking who is using it to defend themselves.

Nobody said its immediate after losing consciousness, but again, on the street no ones there to stop it like in the ring.

You did.....

] Yes, because in a controlled, safe environment people let go, and people usually tap long before starting to lose consciousness. Or the ref ends it and they get broken up.

All it takes is to hold on for a few extra seconds and damage absolutely starts to set in.

........

You're last paragraph sums up the point pretty well if you change ground and pound to chokes.

Actually it doesn't, because if you're trained to bash someone's brains in, you're going to bash their brains in regardless if you mean to or not. There's been plenty of cases where guys get knocked out, land on the concrete, and the defender rushes in to finish him off with a few punches to the head. Heck, some of the self defense icons love to show follow-up stomps to the throat or to the head after someone is laying on the ground. Either one of those could kill someone.

A person trained to choke someone is taught to release them either when they submit, or when they go limp. I know exactly when to release someone because I can feel when someone isn't resisting a choke anymore. And yeah, putting someone to sleep is far more humane than pounding them into submission with my fists.

 

[K-man]

Actually it doesn't, because if you're trained to bash someone's brains in, you're going to bash their brains in regardless if you mean to or not. There's been plenty of cases where guys get knocked out, land on the concrete, and the defender rushes in to finish him off with a few punches to the head. Heck, some of the self defense icons love to show follow-up stomps to the throat or to the head after someone is laying on the ground. Either one of those could kill someone.

Um, no. Someone taught self defence knows to stop when the threat is removed the same as someone choking in competition knows to release when the opponent loses consciousness. Perhaps you could show me someone trained in self defence advocating stomps to the head or throat once the attacker is incapacitated, and I do mean 'self defence', not 'combatives'.

 

[BMhadoken]

I'm not talking about some untrained thug choking someone to purposely do harm to them. I'm talking about someone trained in choking who is using it to defend themselves.

Personally there aren't a lot of situations where I would want to set someone up for a prolonged choke instead of just using the setup to dip out, and of those I'm not sure how many would be legal.

Actually it doesn't, because if you're trained to bash someone's brains in, you're going to bash their brains in regardless if you mean to or not. There's been plenty of cases where guys get knocked out, land on the concrete, and the defender rushes in to finish him off with a few punches to the head.

Per American law, that's not self defense, even if it started out that way it became an assault.

Heck, some of the self defense icons love to show follow-up stomps to the throat or to the head after someone is laying on the ground.

That's attempted murder.

Prosecutors in this country are frequently...overzealous in the pursuit of easy prey. You have to be very, very careful what you do in a physical encounter, because otherwise they will eat you alive with glee.

 

[Hanzou]

Um, no. Someone taught self defence knows to stop when the threat is removed the same as someone choking in competition knows to release when the opponent loses consciousness. Perhaps you could show me someone trained in self defence advocating stomps to the head or throat once the attacker is incapacitated, and I do mean 'self defence', not 'combatives'.

They don't need to be incapacitated. If you knock someone to the ground and stomp their head or throat, you can kill them.

Here's one example that should look familiar to you;

 

[K-man]

They don't need to be incapacitated. If you knock someone to the ground and stomp their head or throat, you can kill them.

Here's one example that should look familiar to you;

Again, you didn't read what I posted. I specifically differentiated between self defence and combatives yet you ignored self defense and posted combatives. And, for what it's worth, we learned that stomp in karate decades ago as kakato geri and yes done with intent it can cause fatal injuries, as can a lot of other techniques. I'm surprised that you would actually acknowledge that we do train lethal techniques.

But again, just because we train potentially lethal techniques doesn't turn us into an out of control robotic killing machine. In a self defence situation I do advocate the stomp as the last technique you might utilise before running away, just that it is at the opposite end of the body on the inner ankle. Just means he's unlikely to be able to run after you.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Ah I see, you misread my original post.

That figures....

I'm not talking about some untrained thug choking someone to purposely do harm to them. I'm talking about someone trained in choking who is using it to defend themselves.



You did.....



........



Actually it doesn't, because if you're trained to bash someone's brains in, you're going to bash their brains in regardless if you mean to or not. There's been plenty of cases where guys get knocked out, land on the concrete, and the defender rushes in to finish him off with a few punches to the head. Heck, some of the self defense icons love to show follow-up stomps to the throat or to the head after someone is laying on the ground. Either one of those could kill someone.

A person trained to choke someone is taught to release them either when they submit, or when they go limp. I know exactly when to release someone because I can feel when someone isn't resisting a choke anymore. And yeah, putting someone to sleep is far more humane than pounding them into submission with my fists.

Not everybody who defends themselves is an "untrained thug". Most are untrained regular people.

And in case you didn't notice, this thread has nothing whatsoever to do with sport. It's about self defense.
Stop trying to derail it with off topic posts.


Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Really.

 

[drop bear]

I understand what he current laws say regarding walking away when your opponent is down or incapacitated but I think there should also be something in the laws that says the SOB deserved what he/she got no matter if you are a martial artiest or not and your training should have nothing to do with the punishment you inflect on someone who endangers your family or an innocent child

It is sort of practiced in a good old boys manner. In that you may not get prosecuted if the other guy really deserved it.

 

[drop bear]

Street fighting is risky. People die. And you can't always control the difference.

In my opinion choking is a bit safer than hitting. Because you can let go and you can stop them falling.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Street fighting is risky. People die. And you can't always control the difference.

In my opinion choking is a bit safer than hitting. Because you can let go and you can stop them falling.

So, in court it will carry less weight against you if you choke somebody out rather than if you were to brain them with a hammer.

 

[ballen0351]

So, in court it will carry less weight against you if you choke somebody out rather than if you were to brain them with a hammer.

Not always. We have had a huge push here in the last few months to go very hard on Strangulation cases. In a legal sense choking comes from inside the body you choke on food, External pressure is strangulation. Strangulation is a very common form of domestic abuse so we have been told to go for The felony assault if the victim says they were strangled. So your Best bet is dont do either one and just walk away. Its not that hard to do.

 

[PhotonGuy]

So your Best bet is dont do either one and just walk away.

Not always an option.

 

[ballen0351]

Not always an option.

It is however ALMOST ALWAYS an option

 

[PhotonGuy]

It is however ALMOST ALWAYS an option

That would depend. Lots of it depends on setting and location. For instance, its often not an option in college, especially if you live there.

 

[ballen0351]

That would depend. Lots of it depends on setting and location. For instance, its often not an option in college, especially if you live there.

Nonsense. Most people are fully capable of going their entire lives never needing to defend themselves.

 

[elder999]

Nonsense. Most people are fully capable of going their entire lives never needing to defend themselves.

Nonsense.

Most people are fortunate enough to go their entire lives never needing to defend themselves....it has nothing to do with "capability," and more to do with circumstance.......karma?........luck.