Are forms emotional?

[dvcochran]

I wouldn't consider them emotional in the literal sense. But they can have the effect of impacting emotion, and IMO you should be absorbed in the form, including in 'feeling' with it, in the same 'feel' you get when fighting. Whether or not any emotional changes should impact the form is a subject for debate, and it can come down to a stylistic thing/the purpose of the form. Mostly I agree with jowga's definition of feeling, with the exception of certain forms that actually are meant to have an impact on emotion; there are some made to either calm you down or amp you up. Most systems don't have those though. I used a calming one a couple times in fencing competitions between bouts when I was doing bad/off my game. Got some weird looks, but it did wonders and let me perform well.

As for performance in competitions. Warning: rant incoming.

Form competition (and learning forms for competition) are anathema to martial arts training. You're often learning not what the form was meant to be, but instead what looks good in competition (and forms have been changed to look good for that purpose). On top of that, you're not supposed to all have the exact same movements/height/etc. When I do a form, how it looks will be different from you, if for no other fact than we have different dimensions. When you try to force those to be the same, one of us (or both) is doing something wrong. It also prevents you from working on new things-if a form requires a kick to the temple, but I can only reach the chin, then we should demo at the chin as a group to make it look better. The issue with that thinking, is that A) everyone else is now doing the form incorrectly, and B) by aiming at the chin, rather than trying to bring it up higher, I'm limiting my own growth. Another example is when people say you should look a certain way in competition, ie: Your kiai has to be at least X loud, your face should show your concentration, etc.. I disagree completely with that. The kiai one I'll address separately since that gets brought up a lot-that defeats the purpose of a kiai. It's meant to be a natural exhale, possibly a forceful one to increase strength/power. It's not meant to be the shout I've seen at competitions. That's trying to look good for the judges, and taking away from the purpose. As for everything else about the emotion you should be showing, or discipline you should be showing depending on who you ask-no. You should be doing the moves properly. And you should be expressing yourself naturally. If that's full of obvious intent, that's great, if it's not, that's fine too. But when you spend time focusing on how you're portraying yourself in the form, rather than the moves you're performing, or how you're feeling in the moment, then you're taking away from the form itself.

One argument against most of the above is that that's just how you perform in a competition, or a demo, not how you train it. I want to nip that one in the bud with two points. 1) You shouldn't have to perform differently than you normally would. If it's a competition-the judges should be well-versed in the forms to know how to evaluate them without needing that, and if it's a demo-faking how you do it is essentially lying to the people watching. 2) You can't just perform something differently on the spot. You have to actively train it to perform in a certain way, particularly at a high level (and competition forms is a high-level skill). So you're inevitably taking time away from practicing them as you should, or practicing something else, in order to get them competition-ready.

Nail on the head.

 

[dvcochran]

Nail

Great thread and question Ivan, certainly a topic I have thought often about!

@hoshin1600 said it very well in his post, and my thoughts are along similar lines.

Yeah I don't know if emotion is the right term I would personally use, but feeling or energy, definitely. Each kata/form has a different feel, energy or principle that it's trying to communicate to you. And no, I don't mean in a new agey "it speaks to you" sorta way, but I sort of do .

I've always seen forms as being much more than just surface level, and I include bunkai/application in that; as important as that is, there's a heap more under the surface to explore and connect with. Eg, the kata Seiunchin while meaning to grab and pull in battle and to be very rooted and grounded while doing so, it sort of commands that feeling of sinking low, being grounded, and mentally to really connect with that sense and feeling of "I am not moving, no matter what." Conjures up an elephant and the pure strength and heaviness.

When you practice forms with these sort of things in mind, it really transforms them and reveals some incredible stuff in them. Some might say it's just simply using sports psychology, and yeah for sure that's true, I guess I can see how it's more on an energetic level too how to tap into those different states of mind and particular energy, and how that not only expresses within the framework of the body but how it mentally/spiritually is instilled.

It seems as though the physical movements themselves can lend the concept as to what you should connect with mentally eg. Strong and grounded movements -> strong and grounded/immovable mind.

I know forms competition isn't everyone's cup of tea, and I agree with most the comments about it here. It's only happened a few times, but I remember watching the forms at a tournament, this one person performed and I was in tears... you could tell she just "got" it, and it was far different to all the other competitors, even performing the same form. It was like every element was in perfect union and harmony, body, mind, technique, spirit, understanding of the principles, concordant emotion/feeling on full display, freedom and self-expression... and it just knocked me out. I learned so much from watching that.

But yeah I don't mean the overly exaggerated showing of emotion, that's purely performance and you can usually tell if someone is just putting it on or genuinely expressing it. Ultimately forms should be an expression of yourself as well, so the way you express certain ideals, feelings etc will be unique to you as well. I'm also not a fan at all of the cookie cutter model that all forms should look exactly the same.

Coincidentally I actually just bought a book recently called "Karate: Beneath The Surface: Emotional Content of Kata", talks all about this (primarily Goju ryu kata, but still applicable for other styles).

And also specific techniques can also elicit these feeling connections too. But kata specifically communicate and instil in you a type of body intelligence, and delving into that is really quite fascinating!

Ah and I posted a thread a little while back on alternate exploration of kata involving what they bring up in you etc... I'll scout out and find it if it's of any use...

But as a note, these are all just my own thoughts on forms, and by no means set in stone nor should anyone feel they need to practice or see them in this way.

Nail on the head x 1000.

 

[dvcochran]

I've always considered katas and forms an exercise used not only to improve technique but to focus. That is, not to concentrate on what you feel, but to concentrate on your breathing, technique, and relax at the same time. Like a form of meditation.
Whenever I practice a form, I either concentrate on executing it as best as possible or/and imagining an opponent to which I am applying the techniques to. This is standard teaching as far as I am aware.

But different forms of art are all supposed to be expressions of emotion. We've all heard Bruce Lee's signature
"don't think, feel" but I always associated it with sparring and fighting: don't think about what you're doing or going to do, feel it. But does this apply to forms/kata?

• Am I supposed to be mindful of how the kata makes me feel, and am I supposed to express this?
• Or am I to relate the kata to personal meanings and express them through its practice?

Another reason I never thought kata to be emotional is due to its performance in competitions. For example, when you see three karatekas performing a kata in sync, they have to do the exact same movements with the exact same height, width, length whilst exposing their kiai at the exact same moments.

Simon and Wolf have done a much better job of describing the characteristics of forms than I can. There are several different 'ideas' within forms that vary slightly from system to system. But I think by in large they are all reaching for the same goals.

So I will try to speak to your questions from my own experience.

1.) YES! Kata void of emotion is nothing more than aerobics or calisthenics. Purely physical. Kata is meant to work the opposite. A person learns through the mental/emotional training of Kata and repetition to push and improve their body/physique and their technique.
The best example I can think of is when you get so confident at doing a form that you get to the end of it and think "I forgot to do X and X technique only to find out you did them perfectly. It did not require any mental effort to do the correct move at the correct time. If that is not self defense I do not know what it.
The buzz phrase for this used to be muscle memory. Now a days many people call bull on this so I do not know what the correct term is but I know it is real. It is a fantastic feeling and frees the mind and body up to do all things better. Period.

2.) YES! Kata/poomsae is and should be considered something very personal as a person matures into learning them. In the beginning everyone learn a form a "do steps 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 etc.... But you have to get beyond the resident memory counting and thinking. Not until then is their value in letting your emotion seep into the form.
We have all probably seen the white or yellow belt at a tournament who is really, really excited to be there and compete with their form. Full of power, vigor, and yes too much emotion. It usually ends up being a less than perfect performance no matter what division it is in. But I will say that is a good thing.

Forms are personal and unique. It should never be lemmings in action. As a certified judge I see it a lot where people are only looking or being critical about what they 'see' in comparison to a certain expected framework for each movement. While this is technically correct and important, if this is all that was used to measure people when competing there would be multiple 1st place winners.

Now this may get a little weird for some people. When I was competing in forms I worked them until I did not have to think about the movement. Instead I wanted to be able to think about what was happening prior to and in and around the next movement. I have trained in Kung Fu just enough to 'get' the animal references. And honestly, as cheesy as it sounds to me while I write this, it is a good and valid study. Many animals attack without provocation or warning. Even after they have been attacked. That is EXACTLY how I think about the movements in a form, especially in the mental realm. I know cheesy but it works for me. Do I care if there is some excess energy and some emotion in a form? Only if it is done at the right time. Back to the white/yellow belt competitors; you will see them really, really wind up for some moves especially right before a kiap and then just go crazy on the kiap. I will just say if it is in tune with the rest of their movements and the form it is okay, even great sometimes. When the whole body of the form is done like a powder keg being lit off from beginning to end that is a very bad thing and terrible management of their resources. However there are a few forms I know where that is basically the intent.

I want to know I can have that animalistic strike whenever I need it. If there is a way to fully do that without emotion in the equation it is something that escapes me, and I am okay with that. For me it is has always been about controlling the emotion and using it as a tool to make your work better.
I do not care at all for the "we will both dine in hell tonight" phrase and totally ignore it. But this is exactly how I feel before and during a competition and how I feel 'inside' when doing a form I am really confident at.

Disturbed The Animal lyrics - YouTube

 

[_Simon_]

Simon and Wolf have done a much better job of describing the characteristics of forms than I can. There are several different 'ideas' within forms that vary slightly from system to system. But I think by in large they are all reaching for the same goals.

So I will try to speak to your questions from my own experience.

1.) YES! Kata void of emotion is nothing more than aerobics or calisthenics. Purely physical. Kata is meant to work the opposite. A person learns through the mental/emotional training of Kata and repetition to push and improve their body/physique and their technique.
The best example I can think of is when you get so confident at doing a form that you get to the end of it and think "I forgot to do X and X technique only to find out you did them perfectly. It did not require any mental effort to do the correct move at the correct time. If that is not self defense I do not know what it.
The buzz phrase for this used to be muscle memory. Now a days many people call bull on this so I do not know what the correct term is but I know it is real. It is a fantastic feeling and frees the mind and body up to do all things better. Period.

2.) YES! Kata/poomsae is and should be considered something very personal as a person matures into learning them. In the beginning everyone learn a form a "do steps 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 etc.... But you have to get beyond the resident memory counting and thinking. Not until then is their value in letting your emotion seep into the form.
We have all probably seen the white or yellow belt at a tournament who is really, really excited to be there and compete with their form. Full of power, vigor, and yes too much emotion. It usually ends up being a less than perfect performance no matter what division it is in. But I will say that is a good thing.

Forms are personal and unique. It should never be lemmings in action. As a certified judge I see it a lot where people are only looking or being critical about what they 'see' in comparison to a certain expected framework for each movement. While this is technically correct and important, if this is all that was used to measure people when competing there would be multiple 1st place winners.

Now this may get a little weird for some people. When I was competing in forms I worked them until I did not have to think about the movement. Instead I wanted to be able to think about what was happening prior to and in and around the next movement. I have trained in Kung Fu just enough to 'get' the animal references. And honestly, as cheesy as it sounds to me while I write this, it is a good and valid study. Many animals attack without provocation or warning. Even after they have been attacked. That is EXACTLY how I think about the movements in a form, especially in the mental realm. I know cheesy but it works for me. Do I care if there is some excess energy and some emotion in a form? Only if it is done at the right time. Back to the white/yellow belt competitors; you will see them really, really wind up for some moves especially right before a kiap and then just go crazy on the kiap. I will just say if it is in tune with the rest of their movements and the form it is okay, even great sometimes. When the whole body of the form is done like a powder keg being lit off from beginning to end that is a very bad thing and terrible management of their resources. However there are a few forms I know where that is basically the intent.

I want to know I can have that animalistic strike whenever I need it. If there is a way to fully do that without emotion in the equation it is something that escapes me, and I am okay with that. For me it is has always been about controlling the emotion and using it as a tool to make your work better.
I do not care at all for the "we will both dine in hell tonight" phrase and totally ignore it. But this is exactly how I feel before and during a competition and how I feel 'inside' when doing a form I am really confident at.

Disturbed The Animal lyrics - YouTube

Very well said! And haha great song

 

[KenpoMaster805]

I think there is no emotion on kata you just have to deep stances and relax and execute your kick block punch perfectly

 

[isshinryuronin]

I wouldn't consider them emotional in the literal sense. But they can have the effect of impacting emotion, and IMO you should be absorbed in the form, including in 'feeling' with it, in the same 'feel' you get when fighting.

I agree with most all of what MTW posted. Forms are not just the physical execution, but emotion is perhaps a too touchy-feely of a term for me. IMO, it's not emotion but the control of emotion. If there is any emotion at all, it should be a calculated response to the situation. There is spirit and intent, though.

I'll agree one can fight with the spirit of an animal such as monkey or tiger and use that as a basis for one's choice of techniques. I personally do not. I just do my kata with intent - a focused attitude to control and strike the opponent. I visualize EVERY move as being against a resisting opponent, and execute accordingly. It does make for a more tiring kata, but I get so much more out of it.

I do not look at kata as a meditation or a performance, or really, even an exercise. For me, it is karate training, pure and simple. Doing forms in this manner, along with full understanding of application, makes kata useful training for actual combat.

Early on, stress is on posture and technical execution, to be sure. But if that's all there is to it, the kata is an empty shell. I think this is what critics of kata see (and all too often are correct.) Later on, intent and application (should) play a bigger part in kata practice and is what makes the kata "real."

 

[Tez3]

I think that kata was very effective. Scares the bejeezus out of me. Imagine living with her and seeing that come out of her when you forget to take the trash out.

Imagine paying for her jewellery!