Do you have a progressive mind set?

[JowGaWolf]

I still laugh at the old 70s , 80s Hong Kong kung fu films. Awooooo.... flying kick beating 15 men.

I did a flying jump kick in a real fight in the 6th grade in an actual fight. I was disappointed in the effectiveness. At 12, I didn't understand the simple reality that there is nothing to root you while in the air. If the attacker comes in with more force than my kick comes in, then I literally get jammed in the Air. That was the day I stopped doing that type of kick.

It was the same day that I liked Karate a little less

 

[caped crusader]

I did a flying jump kick in a real fight in the 6th grade in an actual fight. I was disappointed in the effectiveness. At 12, I didn't understand the simple reality that there is nothing to root you while in the air. If the attacker comes in with more force than my kick comes in, then I literally get jammed in the Air. That was the day I stopped doing that type of kick.

It was the same day that I liked Karate a little less

i did try wado ryu for a while as i liked the mix in there of shindo yoshin ryu ju jitsu. Yeah all that hollywood stuff is just rubbish for street fighting. pure fantasy
I think karate is ok but most have moved on to mixed systems.

 

[caped crusader]

I did read somewhere that all these flying kicks were used in ancient times to kick cavalry horse riders off their Horse? might be a load of crap.

 

[Alan0354]

In the picture the front knee (the one closest to their opponent) is bent. Both legs aren't straight. Maybe this will help I lighten the color so that there is more contrast between the pants and the back ground.
Counting from left to right 1, 2, 3, 4,
1 = front leg knee is bent
2 = front leg knee is slightly bent. Because of the system that I train in. Slightly bent = straight. but there is a bend in it. Just not a good one.
3 = front leg knee is bent
4 = front leg knee is bent

You can verify by looking at how the pant legs are shaped. The rear pants legs form a linear shape . The front pants legs form a curved shapes which indicates that the knee is bent.



View attachment 27602

My point is they don't look like the other pictures you showed in quick transition, these are more teaching which is slower. Such wide stand even with slight knee bend is not mobile.

More importantly, I show you video on how WC stance is and how it started by flipping the foot. These are NOT WC stance. Go look for more videos, those all agree with what I said.

More importantly, I really don't want to talk about this anymore, whatever. It's already much more than I care to look into WC. I learn some before, it's more than I even care to know.

 

[Alan0354]

talking of WC. I saw a good documentary today about punching power. It was Karate vs Boxing. It showed that the Karate punch although slower to execute (in most cases) than a boxer using a shorter range , it was more powerful(more range, thus more momentum..power).
Of course i think it depends on the boxer, weight...etc & Karate uses shorter punches too.
WC,WT,VT.... use chain or arrow punches and use speed.

I think boxing jab and cross can punch very hard. It's NOT easy to do, it takes a long time to have it time right to coordinate the heel, feet, waist and shoulder and arms to focus all the power at one point. Took at least months of practice to get there AND you can lose it if you stop practice for a while. When it is right in punching the HARD heavy bag, you know, the sound will tell you and how much it penetrates in will tell. You cannot judge with those soft long bags that draped on the floor. You need a free hanging bag. You do it right, the bag will hardly move, the force of the punch will penetrate into the bag and the sound is very echoy.

Funny, I find punching and front kick all look very easy, but to be GOOD at it takes a long time.

Boxing punch is the fastest.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

there is nothing to root you while in the air.

The purpose of the jump kick (flying kick) is to cover distance. In stead of doing step in and kick as 2 steps process, you do it as 1 step process.

It's similar to the hop in punch. When you punch, your back foot may be off the ground.

https://i.postimg.cc/zvT5QsX5/Adam-cross.gif

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

talking of WC. I saw a good documentary today about punching power.

In order to do chain punches, you have to pull your punch back fast. When you do that, your punching power will be less than the punch that you sent your fist all the way in.

 

[Alan0354]

That's where I think they go wrong. There has to be some flexibility, things cannot be exact as fighting is fluid and will often deny us of that perfection that we have in our stances when there's no conflict.


I've seen Wing Chun schools take this stance before. Not all of them but there are some out there that have a wider stance which is more like a natural fighting stance. It's not the restricted stance that you are used to seeing.



Professional boxing " fairly straight legs legs spread far apart."
View attachment 27589

View attachment 27590

View attachment 27591
View attachment 27592

MMA wide stance
View attachment 27593

I think I come about explaining the wrong way how I know the old picture is in very slow motion. The pictures here is very high speed and the straight leg is only a split second in the middle of the motion when they extend the leg.

I was a professional photographer for years doing wedding and products earning money. I really know the technical side of photography.

The pictures of the UFC fights you show HAD to be taken with very high shutter speed. Even with flash, the shutter speed has to be at least 1/2000 or even higher which is not hard to get with today's professional cameras. BUT it is not that easy to get anything over 1/2000 50 years ago. Also, in order to use flash, there is a big limitation on the shutter speed when using flash( we call it Flash SYNC speed). Even today, 1/250 sec flash sync speed is very good already. With slower shutter speed, those UFC picture will look like a blur with long trail. Even with flash, you will see a long tail of the image.

Now you look at the old picture of the girls. The image is very clear( but grainy). Meaning the speed is within the limit of the camera. Now, those pictures must be like over 100 years old. There is no way those cameras had high shutter speed. I don't know the history, but I'd be damn if they can get over 1/60sec. If you take a picture of moving object with 1/60, it's just going to be a blur. The fact the picture is clear AUTOMATICALLY tells me the movement must be slow. Meaning they intended to have wide stand and very little to no bending knees.

Technology let me make my conclusion. This is science now. It is so automatic for me that it just is. I have to stop and think of it to come back to explain.



EDIT:

Also film technology ( now digital CCD) has gone through quantum leaps. Those pictures of UFC got to be taken with film ( or CCD) equivalent to at least ISO800 film which is very high speed film so it's a lot more sensitive to light, you can use very high shutter speed. Even 50 years ago, people had to use ISO100(ASA100) or slower to get nice picture without the grains. They had to use slower shutter speed to get enough light.

Imagine 100 years ago when they took those picture of the girls. Those film must be very slow like ASA25. So the shutter speed had to be really slow to take those picture. the fact there is no ghost tail can be conclusively be their motion is very slow.

Technology was not there to take any picture with fast movement at that time. Period. I won't even be surprised if they actually "post" to take the picture......that is make them looked like in action but actually they were all standing still to take the picture.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I think boxing jab and cross can punch very hard. It's NOT easy to do, it takes a long time to have it time right to coordinate the heel, feet, waist and shoulder and arms to focus all the power at one point.

I don't like the idea that if you do it for a long time, you will have it. I like the idea that if you do this and that, you will have.

As far as the power generation, I like to have a set of drills to train it.

- What are those drills?
- Why do those drill work?
- How to train those drills?

The what, why, and how are important. IMO, just to do it for a long time is too abstract and not good enough.

 

[Alan0354]

I don't like the idea that if you do it for a long time, you will have it. I like the idea that if you do this and that, you will have.

As far as the power generation, I like to have a set of drills to train it.

- What are those drills?
- Why do those drill work?
- How to train those drills?

The what, why, and how are important. IMO, just to do it for a long time is too abstract and not good enough.

You have to know what you want to do, then practice until you can do it. It's NOT easy. idea is simple, you turn your foot with back foot on the heel, waist and shoulder turn and the punch go out and all achieve the optimal speed at the point of focus.

The idea is simple, but actually make the body sync up is hard. You just keep doing it until you get it.

I don't like to talk to analyze every little bit, you have the idea, practice until you get it. LESS IS MORE, the simpler the better. Like when you post the two pictures with the person's back straight or at 15 deg, to me it's not even important. You practice, your body limitation will guide you to the best position. I do NOT want to be like those typical CMA nit-picking on little things and MISS the moon.

I truly believe if you know the goal( how to sync the body parts), you find your best way to achieve it, it might be good for you, BUT not good for someone else. What works for you doesn't mean it is right for someone else. We have different body. There is no one correct way. Look at CMA, they pride on so precise, there's only one correct way, where are they now in the real fighting world.

 

[JowGaWolf]

The purpose of the jump kick (flying kick) is to cover distance. In stead of doing step in and kick as 2 steps process, you do it as 1 step process.

It's similar to the hop in punch. When you punch, your back foot may be off the ground.

https://i.postimg.cc/zvT5QsX5/Adam-cross.gif

This is the kick I'm talking about . This is the kick that I did in the fight. But because He was running towards me an because I didn't understand timing at the age of 12. It forced me to kick sooner than what I should have and it jammed my kick. When people kick in doors they do not do running jump kicks like I did.

The kick landed on his sternum upper stomach. He was really mad after being kicked like that. I think of it like this. When I want to kick in a door, I won't be doing this kick.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

This is the kick I'm talking about .

If you use the flying side kick to kick your opponent's leading knee joint from a 45 degree downward angle, it's a good "entering strategy".

This move was one of my senior SC brother David C. K. Lin's favor entering strategies. When his whole body weight tries to land on my knee joint, it puts me in defense mode right at that moment. I will have no option but to move away. This will give him a "safe entry".

 

[JowGaWolf]

Like when you post the two pictures with the person's back straight or at 15 deg, to me it's not even important. You practice, your body limitation will guide you to the best position. I do NOT want to be like those typical CMA nit-picking on little things and MISS the moon.

Those small things are important. It's not only CMA that does it. Other people non TMA systems do it as well. Getting the timing or angle wrong can lead to major issues. For example. Cutting a 45 degree angle is king. Make that angle too small or too large and you will either run into your opponent's fist or you'll be to far out to strike. While it doesn't have to be a perfect 45 degree angle, it has to be within acceptable functional range

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

those typical CMA nit-picking on little things and MISS the moon.

Many techniques only work when small requirement is met.

- You wrist lock work when you raise your elbow joint.
- Your head lock work when your opponent's head is on your chest, and you elbow point down to the ground.
- Your single leg works the best when your back foot line up with both of your opponent's feet.
- A throw works when your head is moving away from your opponent.
- A punch works if your body can be unified as one single unit.
- ...

This is why to have a MA teacher is important. Without an instructor, it's difficult (if not impossible) to figure out all these kind of detail.

 

[JowGaWolf]

If you use the flying side kick to kick your opponent's leading knee joint from a 45 degree downward angle, you can end fight right there.

I gave it my best at the age of 12. Me and my karate. I still have my yellow belt from back then lol

Imagine 100 years ago when they took those picture of the girls. Those film must be very slow like ASA25. So the shutter speed had to be really slow to take those picture. the fact there is no ghost tail can be conclusively be their motion is very slow.

They posed for that picture they weren't moving. If that photographer asked you to show your cane striking you would have to pose as if you were striking and then hold that pose long enough for the picture to be captured.


Edit:

I have a camera like this. There's no way this thing will capture motion it barely captures light lol. You almost have the the sunniest day just to see the image inside of the camera. It's like a reflection of what's in front of you. But it requires a lot of light. Which is probably why we don't see many old pictures of rainy days.

 

[Alan0354]

Guys, I am not interested in what angle, and all that precise stuffs. Opponents are NOT standing still for you to find the best angle and all. I leave these to you guys to debate amount yourselves.

I believe in knowing the principle, then you find your way to achieve that. It's NOT that complicated, don't make it mysterious like the CMA want you to believe.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I believe in knowing the principle, then you find your way to achieve that.

Before I start to write a paper, I want to study already published papers. I want to stand on top of a giant shoulder. I don't want to stand on the flat ground.

Even the simple principle such as "punch -> pull -> clinch", I can find it in CMA. I don't have to reinvent the wheel.

 

[APL76]

Just a legend.

I think the Man Dow section of the knife form is further evidence that it was developed by and for women

 

[Alan0354]

I think the Man Dow section of the knife form is further evidence that it was developed by and for women

Just google and read, plenty of articles, tv shows and all. It is very well known.

 

[isshinryuronin]

I did a flying jump kick in a real fight in the 6th grade in an actual fight. I was disappointed in the effectiveness.

Flying kicks (covering distance and height) are one thing, quick jump kicks are another. I am not a fan of flying kicks (although great fun to do) even though I practiced them for a few years, jumping over hurdles a few feet in front of the heavy bag. If the opponent is so far away you need to fly to him, he's too far to present a threat.

They are not practical IMO in a fight: There is telegraphing, they are slow and comparatively easy to evade, impact power not any greater (as you noted), and can leave you open to being dumped. All in all, liabilities far outweigh advantages. As far as I know, they do not exist in traditional Okinawan kata or kihon.

Jumping kicks are another story. I think the goal here is not to go for distance or height, but to execute 2 kicks (perhaps fake the first) in quick succession, saving time by not getting the first foot on the ground before doing the second kick.

This jumping double kick is found in Okinawan kata, and, like most kicks in kata, you have grabbed the opponent's wrist/arm and are holding him during the kick. So this is proof the goal is not distance or extra height as the opponent is only an arm and a half length distance away. By holding on to him, many of the disadvantages of flying kicks are negated. Even so, it is a kick I'd rarely use in an actual fight. Sport karate sparring is, as always, a different story.