Do you have a progressive mind set?

[JowGaWolf]

You know Kung Fu, you should know the worst stand you can have is in the picture, straight legs and spread far apart. For wide stance, you need to bend the knee a little to get the bounce,

Here's my understanding of the bow stance. In practice and training the leg extends and becomes straight as kung fu drives power by pushing into the punch. In order to get maximum power, you want to straighten that back leg so that the leg is pushing all the way through.

In application the back leg is not straight like in training. It doesn't go completely straight like in training It's straight -ish for a short period of time. Literally less than a second. By the time your punch lands your fist and your leg are returning back to position. It's not the long extended straight leg that you see in training but it does get fairly straight sometimes, just not completely straight.

Here is a good example of what I'm talking about. If you drive punching power by pushing into your punch then this is about as straight as it's going to get before the stance transitions into something else. This is similar to the punch that I first showed you when you first joined here.

Boxer's and MMA fighters sometime are too front heavy because of how they drive power. When that happens their rear foot comes off the ground. The risk of that rear foot coming up is that you are now standing on one leg. You can get away with it in boxing because there is no kicking. But if kicking is involved then standing on that front let with your right leg off the ground can be dangerous.

Some fighter do it because they are transitioning in footwork placement, sort of sneaking a step while punching. Other are literally falling forward and look as such as you see them stumble out of their punch.

OR standing up straight with feet close together like boxing so you can easily hop around.

Boxer typically take the wider stance, it's more stable for launching your hardest punches. High stances are more mobile but they are also less stable. If you take a high stance against a grappler (bjj, judo, or any style of wrestling), then you put yourself at a much greater risk of being put on the ground. Standing tall against them would almost be like taking the newbie student down at the gym. Stance high will vary depending on what you are facing. I start off a mid level stance because at that point it's faster for me to raise or lower my stance as needed.

 

[Alan0354]

I think an important question is the question of kung fu styles being willing to adapt to modern fighting, or remain doggedly rigid in their traditional techniques and methodology.

We see growth and general improvement in martial arts systems that choose to adapt and evolve, so it is strange to see systems like Wing Chun and other CMAs outright refuse to evolve, and instead stick to ancient/archaic fighting concepts.

Ha ha, you said it. I don't want to say it out loud and I am NOT offended even I am Chinese!!!

 

[JowGaWolf]

You missed my point, you use wide stance, you bend your knees ready to explode. If you have wide stand with straight knee, you are dead.

Depends on what you are doing. If you are just standing there then yes, don't lock your knees straight. Keep them slightly bent.

Also remember, these pictures are snap shots of a split seconds when the knee is straight.

Yes, because that how it is in application. When you train bow stance you are allowed to sit in the bow stance longer for training purposes. But a bow stance in application is not the same. It's over as soon as your punch is over.

Keep in mind that Bow stance is used for multiple reasons. I don't only have to use it punching. I can use it in wrestling or use it for take downs. Such as the one below. The rule is always the same stay in a stance only as long as needed and transition from stance to stance. The throw below only works if that leg is straight. If it's not straight then he won't have the structure that's needed to twist the guy over.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

kung fu styles being willing to adapt to modern fighting, or remain doggedly rigid in their traditional techniques and methodology.

Which method is better?

You throw a punch. Your opponent blocks it.

Modern fighting: You pull you punch back and punch with another hand.

CMA fighting: You use your punching arm to pull your opponent's blocking arm, establish a clinch. You then use that clinch to take your opponent down.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I still not convince that old picture is WC, like I said, I read some Chinese, it did not say WC, it's some other names I don't recognize. I know how to write WC in Chinese.

That's why I said "if the picture is accurate" But this guy trains WC and he uses a wide stance at @27:22 that is similar to what is shown in the WC picture I posted.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Which method is better?

You throw a punch. Your opponent blocks it.

In Jow Ga we don't care if our opponent blocks some of our punches. As a matter of fact we count on it for our large wheel punches. We train to hit through the guard. With other punches we may use that same striking motion to set up a grappling opportunity or we use to strike, then grab.

As for as the better method. I would say the one that works for the timing and opportunity. Both methods can be fruitful.

CMA fighting: You use your punching arm to pull your opponent's blocking arm, establish a clinch. You then use this clinch to take your opponent down.

You can do this or strike then clinch. Mix it up and the person won't know what is coming next. All they know is the pull, but won't know what follows next.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

You can do this or strike then clinch. Mix it up and the person won't know what is coming next. All they know is the pull, but won't know what follows next.

I only ask question, and I don't draw conclusion.

Does the modern fight have the concept of

punch -> pull -> clinch?

If the modern fight doesn't have it, why do I want to go backward?

 

[Alan0354]

That's why I said "if the picture is accurate" But this guy trains WC and he uses a wide stance at @27:22 that is similar to what is shown in the WC picture I posted.

That's is in transition and with bent knee. The old picture show BOTH girls have straight knee and wide stands. And the way the picture shown, someone was teaching them and it's not exactly in motion. Even the other two have knees that are quite straight. I don't think those are WC.

I can recognize this video you showed is WC. I don't know how to explain any better, one can tell easily whether it's WC or not.

 

[Hanzou]

Which method is better?

You throw a punch. Your opponent blocks it.

Modern fighting: You pull you punch back and punch with another hand.

CMA fighting: You use your punching arm to pull your opponent's blocking arm, establish a clinch. You then use that clinch to take your opponent down.

At this point it's rather clear which method is better. While you're attempting to grab someone's blocking arm, you're getting tagged in the face with jabs and straight punches. You take your opponent down, but you don't know ground fighting, so they sweep you and choke you out rather quickly.

Seriously, we're thirty years into this now, there's really no point restating the obvious. The goal now should be getting the traditional CMAs caught up.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Seriously, we're thirty years into this now, there's really no point restating the obvious. The goal now should be getting the traditional CMAs caught up.

The true striking art and wrestling art integration (such as punch -> pull -> clinch) already existed in TMA. The modern fight doesn't have to reinvent the wheel.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I still not convince that old picture is WC, like I said, I read some Chinese, it did not say WC, it's some other names I don't recognize. I know how to write WC in Chinese.

The source for the Wing chun picture that I posted is here.
Earliest Published Photograph and References to Wing Chun

You can come to your own conclusions about this as I have no way to verify if that WC picture is correct or not.

For me the picture is irrelevant to the fact that there are some people who train WC with a wider chance. I've seen people who do. I'll leave it up to the WC community to decide if those people are doing Wing Chun or not. I'm a Jow Ga practitioner and have no interest in spending hours and days trying to verify that photo or the information.

The problem with stances is that too many people understand stances like this guy at @53. If that's the level of understanding of a stance that a person has not grasp the functions of stances and how to apply them.

 

[Alan0354]

The source for the Wing chun picture that I posted is here.
Earliest Published Photograph and References to Wing Chun

You can come to your own conclusions about this as I have no way to verify if that WC picture is correct or not.

For me the picture is irrelevant to the fact that there are some people who train WC with a wider chance. I've seen people who do. I'll leave it up to the WC community to decide if those people are doing Wing Chun or not. I'm a Jow Ga practitioner and have no interest in spending hours and days trying to verify that photo or the information.

The problem with stances is that too many people understand stances like this guy at @53. If that's the level of understanding of a stance that a person has not grasp the functions of stances and how to apply them.

Whatever, I am not even interested in their stance, just saying from my experience. Only thing I follow WC is the "nudging" fist and the step kick. They can keep the rest. the little I learn is more than I care to learn already.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Whatever, I am not even interested in their stance, just saying from my experience. Only thing I follow WC is the "nudging" fist and the step kick. They can keep the rest. the little I learn is more than I care to learn already.

This is why the side kick is not popular in the WC system. Without the low stance training (such as the Pu-Bu), the groin area won't be open enough for side kick.

 

[Hanzou]

The true striking art and wrestling art integration (such as punch -> pull -> clinch) already existed in TMA. The modern fight doesn't have to reinvent the wheel.

Where's the ground fighting in TMA?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Where's the ground fighting in TMA?

- The modern fight (such as ground fight) can help the traditional fight.
- The traditional fight (such as punch -> pull -> clinch) can help the modern fight.

It's 2 ways street and not just 1 way street.

 

[Hanzou]

- The modern fight (such as ground fight) can help the traditional fight.
- The traditional fight (such as punch -> pull -> clinch) can help the modern fight.

It's 2 ways street and not just 1 way street.

The traditional fighting method can help the modern fight how exactly? If I were looking to pick up a striking style to augment my BJJ training, I wouldn't go to CMA, I would go to boxing, kickboxing (American or Japanese) or Muay Thai. The clinching in boxing and MT directly benefit BJJ.

The kata, archaic stances, folklore, and old methodologies found in traditional martial arts do not. It's simply far too much baggage.

 

[JowGaWolf]

If you have wide stand with straight knee, you are dead.

In the picture the front knee (the one closest to their opponent) is bent. Both legs aren't straight. Maybe this will help I lighten the color so that there is more contrast between the pants and the back ground.
Counting from left to right 1, 2, 3, 4,
1 = front leg knee is bent
2 = front leg knee is slightly bent. Because of the system that I train in. Slightly bent = straight. but there is a bend in it. Just not a good one.
3 = front leg knee is bent
4 = front leg knee is bent

You can verify by looking at how the pant legs are shaped. The rear pants legs form a linear shape . The front pants legs form a curved shapes which indicates that the knee is bent.

 

[caped crusader]

You think there's a lot of "stories"? You have not live in Hong Kong yet!!!

I still laugh at the old 70s , 80s Hong Kong kung fu films. Awooooo.... flying kick beating 15 men.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I only ask question, and I don't draw conclusion.

Does the modern fight have the concept of

punch -> pull -> clinch?

If the modern fight doesn't have it, why do I want to go backward?

View attachment 27598

Being how active MMA is, I'm going to say yes.

It may not look like how your clip shows, but I have the seen other systems use the same concept. I don't think it's an unknown concept in modern fighting. There are many ways to use the punch to enter into a clinch or arm control.

How the entry is done depends on what the person wants to do after the entry.

 

[caped crusader]

talking of WC. I saw a good documentary today about punching power. It was Karate vs Boxing. It showed that the Karate punch although slower to execute (in most cases) than a boxer using a shorter range , it was more powerful(more range, thus more momentum..power).
Of course i think it depends on the boxer, weight...etc & Karate uses shorter punches too.
WC,WT,VT.... use chain or arrow punches and use speed.