Do you have a progressive mind set?

[Hanzou]

True. "Complete" could mean a lot of things depending on context. It could mean that your style or system has everything in it. That's not how Leung Ting used the term though. Wing Chun (and Wing Tsun) is selective. It is defined as much by it's relative simplicity as by it's complexities.

Then there is the old saying that all kung fu should encompass "ti da shuai na" or kicking, punching, throwing, and locking ...if it is complete. This is true up to a point with Wing Chun. It has some techniques addressing of each of those categories ...enough to be a "complete" system in that sense, but you'll notice that ground-fighting is not really addressed when you say "ti da shuai na".

And then, "complete" could simply mean that your system may be limited, but still has what is necessary to deal with whatever you will confront (again "ti da shuai na).

Interestingly, a lot of Chinese martial arts don't seem to include ground-fighting in their definition of what is "complete". Could be a cultural thing. One time I brought this up with my old sifu and he implied that such fighting was somehow "primitive" and "low class". Kinda like the way American men from the WWII generation thought of boxing as "the manly art of self-defense" ...like the way my old uncle John (now deceased) dismissed any fighting that had kicks or low blows as being cowardly and just wrong.

I suppose if you grew up in the late 1800s and early 1900s in southern China like GM Yip Man, when the streets of the working-class areas of crowded cities like Fo'shan were likely filled with filth and dung, the thought of rolling on the ground was not the proper way to fight, especially for a gentleman.

Anybody have any info on this?

Interestingly, Jigoro Kano the founder of Judo didn't like ground fighting much either. He incorporated it into Judo because Mateamon Tanabe, a master of Fusen-Ryu JJ used it to defeat Judoka in exhibition matches. Supposedly Tanabe developed his style from gripping eels and watching snakes kill and swallow toads......

Anyway, when Kosen Judo started to take off at the Kodokan in the 1920s, Kano actively worked to limit newaza and really push the tachiwaza (throwing) side of Judo. Banning leg locks and limiting the amount of time you can fight on the ground were such examples. Ironically, this gave space for BJJ to carve out an identity for itself later in the century. With that said, I do agree with you that an aversion to ground fighting seemed to be a cultural issue in Asian countries.

Edit: Found a blog post about this;

Mataemon Tanabe Kodokan Killer BJJ Origins - M3 Fight and Fitness

What are the origins of Jiu Jitsu? We are going to learn of the Fusen Ryu Jiu Jitsu practitioner know as Tanabe, the man who took out various Judo legends under Kano.

m3fight.com

 

[drop bear]

Unfortunately, the Wing Chun community absolutely has an issue with poorly trained people teaching an incomplete understanding of the system.

The big issue there is there is no good way to tell.

Or they use irrelevant methods like linage.

 

[Alan0354]

The big issue there is there is no good way to tell.

Or they use irrelevant methods like linage.

Problem is how can you tell good or bad? If you have someone that can tell you whether it's good or bad, you already found a good person to learn from!!!

I learned some WC, I can see there are different variations with different instructors. Just like the simple punch in the first kata set "Little Idea" or "Little thoughts". Some punches out on the centerline of the chest, some holding the fist a little towards the shoulder between centerline and shoulder. Of cause I think it's not good punching from the centerline, but that's just me.

I am just thinking, the way the stand and centerline stuffs, could it be because WC is invented by a woman. Woman tends to protect the chest. The older woman dress limit them from having a wide stand, thereby having the kind of narrow stands with knees close together. Meaning in another word, they are not applicable in the modern days and if man practice WC.

I personally like the step kick to the knee, it is popular in UFC fights and is effective. I also like the "nudging" with the knuckle of the small finger in punching. I practice typical boxing punches, but I add the "nudging" in the punch. It's not easy to coordinate, but when you time it right, you can hear it on the heavy bag and you can feel it's a hard punch. I absolutely don't care for the sticky hands, centerline and fighting with elbow close together. But again, it's just me.

 

[Cynik75]

... WC is invented by a woman.

Just a legend.

 

[futsaowingchun]

@ the OP what is your opinion of the Wing Tsun system from Leung ting?

If your referring to me? Myself , I find it to much drill focused.. I don't practice that many drills anymore..I use drills to fix a certain problem a student may have then when that problem is fixed I tell him not to practice it anymore

 

[futsaowingchun]

My entire take is that a person can progress a martial arts without actually using the techniques found in it. Once you do this, it will naturally progress and it will naturally have new things added to it.

The more you use something the better you get at it. The better you understand it, and the more likely it will eventually advance with new approaches and new techniques.

I agree, I call this finding your self within level

 

[caped crusader]

If your referring to me? Myself , I find it to much drill focused.. I don't practice that many drills anymore..I use drills to fix a certain problem a student may have then when that problem is fixed I tell him not to practice it anymore

so what is futsaowingcun?

Wing Chun is one of the most popular martial arts in the world. It was made famous by Bruce Lee and his master, Yip Man. The most practiced form of Wing Chun is the Hong Kong version, which is streamlined and compact. However, older systems survive in China and one of them is the obscure art known as Fut Sao (Buddha Hand) Wing Chun. Fut Sao Wing Chun was brought to America in 1961 by Grandmaster Henry Leung, (Hong Lei, Chi Man), who learned the whole system under Great Master Gao Jhi Fut Sao. The system was passed down in America to Master Leung's one disciple, Sifu James Cama. In this book Cama sets out, for the first time, the outline of the Fut Sao system of Wing Chun Kuen.This book is special because, for the first time ever, the Fut Sao Siu Lin Tao and its two-man set are revealed. The Hei Gung set and meditation visualization practice are also detailed. The gem of the art is its internal practices which are rarely seen in Wing Chun. Chapters included: forms training, weapons, training enhancement devices, sensitivity training and internal training.

Hmmmm......

 

[Xue Sheng]

so what is futsaowingcun?

Wing Chun is one of the most popular martial arts in the world. It was made famous by Bruce Lee and his master, Yip Man. The most practiced form of Wing Chun is the Hong Kong version, which is streamlined and compact. However, older systems survive in China and one of them is the obscure art known as Fut Sao (Buddha Hand) Wing Chun. Fut Sao Wing Chun was brought to America in 1961 by Grandmaster Henry Leung, (Hong Lei, Chi Man), who learned the whole system under Great Master Gao Jhi Fut Sao. The system was passed down in America to Master Leung's one disciple, Sifu James Cama. In this book Cama sets out, for the first time, the outline of the Fut Sao system of Wing Chun Kuen.This book is special because, for the first time ever, the Fut Sao Siu Lin Tao and its two-man set are revealed. The Hei Gung set and meditation visualization practice are also detailed. The gem of the art is its internal practices which are rarely seen in Wing Chun. Chapters included: forms training, weapons, training enhancement devices, sensitivity training and internal training.

Hmmmm......

Not sure, but it looks like a lineage that does not come from Ip Man, and those do exist, just not as prolific as the Ip Man lineage schools. And those styles can look a bit different, example Pan Nam Style

 

[caped crusader]

Not sure, but it looks like a lineage that does not come from Ip Man, and those do exist, just not as prolific as the Ip Man lineage schools. And those styles can look a bit different, example Pan Nam Style

There is a lineage in Vietnam too. slightly different from Yip Man WC.
was just laughing when i read it´s the Buddha hands wing chun

 

[caped crusader]

Think this might be the Vietnam Lineage.

 

[Alan0354]

Just a legend.

That's what everyone in Hong Kong said AND even have a documentary here on American History Channel called Ancient Assassins. This is the episode:

"Ancient Assassins" Kung Fu Nun (TV Episode 2016) - IMDb

Look online, there are alternate stories, but still be a woman called Yim Wing Chun.

Who Invented Wing Chun? (The Woman Who Created Wing Chun) - Combat Museum

Yim Wing Chun was the one I kept hearing in Hong Kong.

 

[Hanzou]

That's what everyone in Hong Kong said AND even have a documentary here on American History Channel called Ancient Assassins. This is the episode:

"Ancient Assassins" Kung Fu Nun (TV Episode 2016) - IMDb

Look online, there are alternate stories, but still be a woman called Yim Wing Chun.

Who Invented Wing Chun? (The Woman Who Created Wing Chun) - Combat Museum

Yim Wing Chun was the one I kept hearing in Hong Kong.

Kung Fu styles always have the best stories, and I do enjoy their myriad of styles. I wish they were systematically more effective though.

 

[Alan0354]

Kung Fu styles always have the best stories, and I do enjoy their myriad of styles. I wish they were systematically more effective though.

You think there's a lot of "stories"? You have not live in Hong Kong yet!!!

 

[JowGaWolf]

You only use uppercut when your opponent escapes your head lock. The head lock is used to switch a striking game into a wrestling game. It should not be the other way around.

In that clip that you showed it look more like controlling the exit than a person escaping.

Problem is how can you tell good or bad? If you have someone that can tell you whether it's good or bad, you already found a good person to learn from!!!

I learned some WC, I can see there are different variations with different instructors. Just like the simple punch in the first kata set "Little Idea" or "Little thoughts". Some punches out on the centerline of the chest, some holding the fist a little towards the shoulder between centerline and shoulder. Of cause I think it's not good punching from the centerline, but that's just me.

I am just thinking, the way the stand and centerline stuffs, could it be because WC is invented by a woman. Woman tends to protect the chest. The older woman dress limit them from having a wide stand, thereby having the kind of narrow stands with knees close together. Meaning in another word, they are not applicable in the modern days and if man practice WC.

I personally like the step kick to the knee, it is popular in UFC fights and is effective. I also like the "nudging" with the knuckle of the small finger in punching. I practice typical boxing punches, but I add the "nudging" in the punch. It's not easy to coordinate, but when you time it right, you can hear it on the heavy bag and you can feel it's a hard punch. I absolutely don't care for the sticky hands, centerline and fighting with elbow close together. But again, it's just me.

I think some people took things to literal. When they say stand in a narrow stance they didn't mean to stay in a narrow stance. My understanding of stances is that they are like gears on a bike. Each gear has a correct time and place to use them. The rider switches in an out of the gears based on the terrain that the rider is riding on. Fighting stances are like that as well. The goal isn't to stay in one, but to switch stances as needed

I made a comment in a group of Sifus that I use the low stance to defend against grappling attempts. One of the Sifu's called me out and said that if I just stand there in a low stance then it will fail and as of such he didn't believe my claim. I was shock for 2 reason.
1. Why don't people understand that it's ok to move to one stance type and stance level as needed. Grapplers lower their stance when they grapple. Why would that concept be incorrect in Kung Fu "lower your stance."

2. If someone goes for your legs, then move. Using a low stance to defend against grappling doesn't mean I'm just standing there like a statue. Kung Fu trains transitioning through stances yet for some reason many though that out the door and expect to defend against grappling by standing still.

I think that in the effort to "Preserve history" many people have taken the extreme side of things to the point where it restricts a system so much that it's not practiced as it was originally intended.

If a person says they can defend a take down only using their stance. Then the next question should be. Are you moving or just standing still. Context is everything and a lot of context is lost in many TMA systems. And as a result stories are made to fill in "gaps"

 

[JowGaWolf]

@Alan0354

When I here about the stories about WC being created by a woman. One of the first things I took a look at was to see what the fashion was like back then. None of the fashion back then fits with any of the stories I've heard about the narrow stance in WC. Just basing it on what I saw most women wore pants. Below is said to be women practicing WC. Notice the stances.

 

[Alan0354]

In that clip that you showed it look more like controlling the exit than a person escaping.

I think some people took things to literal. When they say stand in a narrow stance they didn't mean to stay in a narrow stance. My understanding of stances is that they are like gears on a bike. Each gear has a correct time and place to use them. The rider switches in an out of the gears based on the terrain that the rider is riding on. Fighting stances are like that as well. The goal isn't to stay in one, but to switch stances as needed

I made a comment in a group of Sifus that I use the low stance to defend against grappling attempts. One of the Sifu's called me out and said that if I just stand there in a low stance then it will fail and as of such he didn't believe my claim. I was shock for 2 reason.
1. Why don't people understand that it's ok to move to one stance type and stance level as needed. Grapplers lower their stance when they grapple. Why would that concept be incorrect in Kung Fu "lower your stance."

2. If someone goes for your legs, then move. Using a low stance to defend against grappling doesn't mean I'm just standing there like a statue. Kung Fu trains transitioning through stances yet for some reason many though that out the door and expect to defend against grappling by standing still.

I think that in the effort to "Preserve history" many people have taken the extreme side of things to the point where it restricts a system so much that it's not practiced as it was originally intended.

If a person says they can defend a take down only using their stance. Then the next question should be. Are you moving or just standing still. Context is everything and a lot of context is lost in many TMA systems. And as a result stories are made to fill in "gaps"

NO!!! They are very literal. This I know.

You train here, things must be very different. NO, they glorify EXACT.

 

[Alan0354]

@Alan0354

When I here about the stories about WC being created by a woman. One of the first things I took a look at was to see what the fashion was like back then. None of the fashion back then fits with any of the stories I've heard about the narrow stance in WC. Just basing it on what I saw most women wore pants. Below is said to be women practicing WC. Notice the stances.

View attachment 27588

Not in the more recent days. I did learn some WC. You sure it's WC? I can read the Chinese words, it did NOT say is WC.

I don't know what this pictures was from, I saw at least 5 schools in HK and here, the basic stance is NOT like this. The most basic form is the stance from the first kata "Little thoughts" that spread the foot, sit down so the knee close to each other. Then turn 45deg and become the most basic stand.

This is how the stance starts:

You know Kung Fu, you should know the worst stand you can have is in the picture, straight legs and spread far apart. For wide stance, you need to bend the knee a little to get the bounce, OR standing up straight with feet close together like boxing so you can easily hop around. I have no idea where the picture comes from, but that's not a good stand no matter what style you are talking.

 

[Hanzou]

You think there's a lot of "stories"? You have not live in Hong Kong yet!!!

I think an important question is the question of kung fu styles being willing to adapt to modern fighting, or remain doggedly rigid in their traditional techniques and methodology.

We see growth and general improvement in martial arts systems that choose to adapt and evolve, so it is strange to see systems like Wing Chun and other CMAs outright refuse to evolve, and instead stick to ancient/archaic fighting concepts.

 

[JowGaWolf]

NO!!! They are very literal. This I know.

You train here, things must be very different. NO, they glorify EXACT.

That's where I think they go wrong. There has to be some flexibility, things cannot be exact as fighting is fluid and will often deny us of that perfection that we have in our stances when there's no conflict.

I saw at least 5 schools in HK and here, the basic stance is NOT like this.

I've seen Wing Chun schools take this stance before. Not all of them but there are some out there that have a wider stance which is more like a natural fighting stance. It's not the restricted stance that you are used to seeing.

You know Kung Fu, you should know the worst stand you can have is in the picture, straight legs and spread far apart.

Professional boxing " fairly straight legs legs spread far apart."

MMA wide stance

 

[Alan0354]

That's where I think they go wrong. There has to be some flexibility, things cannot be exact as fighting is fluid and will often deny us of that perfection that we have in our stances when there's no conflict.


I've seen Wing Chun schools take this stance before. Not all of them but there are some out there that have a wider stance which is more like a natural fighting stance. It's not the restricted stance that you are used to seeing.



Professional boxing " fairly straight legs legs spread far apart."
View attachment 27589

View attachment 27590

View attachment 27591
View attachment 27592

MMA wide stance
View attachment 27593

You missed my point, you use wide stance, you bend your knees ready to explode. If you have wide stand with straight knee, you are dead.

Also remember, these pictures are snap shots of a split seconds when the knee is straight. I don't think the picture of the girls you show is dynamic, they are practicing, not like these in the middle of the fight.

I still not convince that old picture is WC, like I said, I read some Chinese, it did not say WC, it's some other names I don't recognize. I know how to write WC in Chinese.