Do u like the idea of age 18 for a black belt?

[FlamingJulian]

Personally I'm going for black belt in a few weeks and I'm 16. It'll be a solid real black belt from Kukkiwon. Not a junior belt. Any way I hate the idea of 18 for a black belt. Because you can't honestly tell me that I'm not the skill level of a black belt just because I wasn't born in 1998. I don't see why a very skilled 12 year old can't get the belt if they earn it. If you go through the test, and pass..... why not? I think the belt should be on skill level and not age. Age may affect skill level but it should be based upon skills. I dedicate all my time to Taekwondo and definitely have the skills of a black belt. My Master already said I'm ready for the test. Any thoughts?


-Julian

 

[Tez3]

Skills, fitness, techniques I'm sure you have. What about the maturity to teach people twice your age or even older? What about being able to help a victim of abuse learn martial arts in a safe way? What about having the patience to teach people without your agility and learning ability? What about keeping a mixed ability class interested and learning? What about dealing with students your age who chatter and give you cheek? What about getting the best out of students, understanding that people have families/careers/lives and can't spend as much time as you training? What do you know about child protection? You may have the physical skills but there's a whole lot more to being a black belt than doing techniques.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Personally I'm going for black belt in a few weeks and I'm 16. It'll be a solid real black belt from Kukkiwon. Not a junior belt. Any way I hate the idea of 18 for a black belt. Because you can't honestly tell me that I'm not the skill level of a black belt just because I wasn't born in 1998. I don't see why a very skilled 12 year old can't get the belt if they earn it. If you go through the test, and pass..... why not? I think the belt should be on skill level and not age. Age may affect skill level but it should be based upon skills. I dedicate all my time to Taekwondo and definitely have the skills of a black belt. My Master already said I'm ready for the test. Any thoughts?

Rank only has meaning within the system that awards it. The KKW endorses the concept of baby black belts, and within that system, you'll be a black belt.
In our system, it is extremely unlikely that you would.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Personally I'm going for black belt in a few weeks and I'm 16. It'll be a solid real black belt from Kukkiwon. Not a junior belt. Any way I hate the idea of 18 for a black belt. Because you can't honestly tell me that I'm not the skill level of a black belt just because I wasn't born in 1998. I don't see why a very skilled 12 year old can't get the belt if they earn it. If you go through the test, and pass..... why not? I think the belt should be on skill level and not age. Age may affect skill level but it should be based upon skills. I dedicate all my time to Taekwondo and definitely have the skills of a black belt. My Master already said I'm ready for the test. Any thoughts?


-Julian

The issue, from my standpoint, is a measure of understanding rather than physical skill. A 12-year-old has a very immature brain (clinically speaking) and is unlikely to have a depth of understanding I'd require of a black belt. Frankly, most 16-year-olds won't either, because most of their training would have come when their brain was very immature (it doesn't finish maturing until mid-20's for most people, as a frame of reference). For those reasons, I don't teach anyone under 16. If I did, it would be a different curriculum than the adult classes.

I'm not saying a 16-year-old can't be worthy of a black belt, even in my curriculum. It would just be rare enough that I don't feel the need to allow for it. If a student showed up who was capable, I'd train them to their level, and even consider making an exception on the promotion (one of the benefits of being outside an association). In mainline NGA (following the NGAA curriculum), it's technically possible for someone to get their black belt at 16. That's a stated minimum age. If they started training earlier, they'd start with the junior curriculum. After completing that, and when they are large enough/old enough/coordinated enough, they could move into the adult curriculum. If they completed the adult curriculum to the right level by 16, they could earn their black belt. To my knowledge, there haven't been any that young, but it's possible. I know one guy who got his at 17 or 18 (just before going to the Marines), but he'd been training since about age 8, and he was a fairly skilled and coordinated kid even when I first met him (he was probably 12).

 

[Juany118]

Yeah in my school we have an exceptionally skilled teenager who is technically my senior BUT the Sifu has him in a "holding" pattern. It's not about his skill, rather it is about his patience and maturity which makes it difficult for him to think outside the box. As an example we teach the art "traditionally" but also go over the different self defense applications. One day he was showing off his skills and how you could go into a throat shot. I had to point out that such attacks can get you into legal hot water. He also has an issue with avoiding getting into "competitions" with kids his age. One day he and another student basically ran over other students to be behind the Sifu/Guro when we went to a run on conditioning day. Your school may be different but in mine black belts are also assistant instructors and he is, quite simply, not ready for that responsibility.

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[Headhunter]

Sorry you're not going to like my answer but I hate the idea of under 18 black and personally I couldn't train under 1. That's not my ego because I listen to everyone but I could not call someone who's not even a man yet my instructor. With any coach and instructor I've had i know I've been able to trust their advice based on their years and years of experience in teaching and training and fighting. A 16 year old at most can only have been training 12 years and that's assuming they started when they were 4 the majority would not so much less time. You don't have that expertise a black belt is more than just a fighter a black belt is a teacher and a teacher needs to be responsible for his students. Sure you may know your techniques but what if when your teaching a class and little tommy your teaching bursts into tears in class because his parents are arguing and getting a divorce or because his gran has cancer would you know how to deal with that? No probably not that's not a knock on you a lot of people would struggle in those situations but a black belt needs to know how to handle it. Or even more worse a situation what if you find out a parent is beating a child? A 16 year old wont have the maturity or composer to deal with that stuff.

To me it's no different to a normal teacher you wouldn't have a 16 year old teaching an English class even if they're an expert in Shakespeare. Teaching is the main point of a black belt and how many hours teaching have you done?

Even 18 is a bit to young for me only just an adult in the UK in America it's 21.

You think a 12 year old should be awarded a black belt? No sorry that's not right I know they have these junior ranks these days but that's rubbish to me that's just giving kids false confidence they can go telling their mates hey I'm a black belt. No kid you're not you only know half the system.

Sorry but you wanted my opinion that's it. If I seem rude I appoligise it's a subject I feel strongky about as the club I trained at a 17 year old was awarded his black got cocky went out 1 night bragging about it and got stabbed. That shows the immaturity I was talking about no one with any common sense goes out at night and brags about martial art training it's just stupid and asking for trouble.

 

[Headhunter]

The issue, from my standpoint, is a measure of understanding rather than physical skill. A 12-year-old has a very immature brain (clinically speaking) and is unlikely to have a depth of understanding I'd require of a black belt. Frankly, most 16-year-olds won't either, because most of their training would have come when their brain was very immature (it doesn't finish maturing until mid-20's for most people, as a frame of reference). For those reasons, I don't teach anyone under 16. If I did, it would be a different curriculum than the adult classes.

I'm not saying a 16-year-old can't be worthy of a black belt, even in my curriculum. It would just be rare enough that I don't feel the need to allow for it. If a student showed up who was capable, I'd train them to their level, and even consider making an exception on the promotion (one of the benefits of being outside an association). In mainline NGA (following the NGAA curriculum), it's technically possible for someone to get their black belt at 16. That's a stated minimum age. If they started training earlier, they'd start with the junior curriculum. After completing that, and when they are large enough/old enough/coordinated enough, they could move into the adult curriculum. If they completed the adult curriculum to the right level by 16, they could earn their black belt. To my knowledge, there haven't been any that young, but it's possible. I know one guy who got his at 17 or 18 (just before going to the Marines), but he'd been training since about age 8, and he was a fairly skilled and coordinated kid even when I first met him (he was probably 12).

Also correct me if I'm wrong but from my kenpo experience some techniques are taught differently to kids e.g they won't teach a kid to eye gouge another kid and only teach that stuff when they're older so if they get black at 16 they wouldn't have had time to learn all the proper ways

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Sorry you're not going to like my answer but I hate the idea of under 18 black and personally I couldn't train under 1. That's not my ego because I listen to everyone but I could not call someone who's not even a man yet my instructor. With any coach and instructor I've had i know I've been able to trust their advice based on their years and years of experience in teaching and training and fighting. A 16 year old at most can only have been training 12 years and that's assuming they started when they were 4 the majority would not so much less time. You don't have that expertise a black belt is more than just a fighter a black belt is a teacher and a teacher needs to be responsible for his students. Sure you may know your techniques but what if when your teaching a class and little tommy your teaching bursts into tears in class because his parents are arguing and getting a divorce or because his gran has cancer would you know how to deal with that? No probably not that's not a knock on you a lot of people would struggle in those situations but a black belt needs to know how to handle it. Or even more worse a situation what if you find out a parent is beating a child? A 16 year old wont have the maturity or composer to deal with that stuff.

To me it's no different to a normal teacher you wouldn't have a 16 year old teaching an English class even if they're an expert in Shakespeare. Teaching is the main point of a black belt and how many hours teaching have you done?

Even 18 is a bit to young for me only just an adult in the UK in America it's 21.

You think a 12 year old should be awarded a black belt? No sorry that's not right I know they have these junior ranks these days but that's rubbish to me that's just giving kids false confidence they can go telling their mates hey I'm a black belt. No kid you're not you only know half the system.

Sorry but you wanted my opinion that's it. If I seem rude I appoligise it's a subject I feel strongky about as the club I trained at a 17 year old was awarded his black got cocky went out 1 night bragging about it and got stabbed. That shows the immaturity I was talking about no one with any common sense goes out at night and brags about martial art training it's just stupid and asking for trouble.

Teaching is not the main point of a black belt in all contexts. There are associations where you can't teach until 2nd, 3rd, or even 5th dan.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Also correct me if I'm wrong but from my kenpo experience some techniques are taught differently to kids e.g they won't teach a kid to eye gouge another kid and only teach that stuff when they're older so if they get black at 16 they wouldn't have had time to learn all the proper ways

That's true in many systems. At the same time, there's a point where you make the transition to adult techniques. It's possible in some cases to make that transition early enough for someone to meet the requirements for black belt at an earlier age.

 

[FlamingJulian]

Skills, fitness, techniques I'm sure you have. What about the maturity to teach people twice your age or even older? What about being able to help a victim of abuse learn martial arts in a safe way? What about having the patience to teach people without your agility and learning ability? What about keeping a mixed ability class interested and learning? What about dealing with students your age who chatter and give you cheek? What about getting the best out of students, understanding that people have families/careers/lives and can't spend as much time as you training? What do you know about child protection? You may have the physical skills but there's a whole lot more to being a black belt than doing techniques.

In my class I lead the class all the time and teach people twice my age and deal with little kids who act like they don't want to be there and I handle it well. I've taught disabled kids so I understand ur point but do you get mine? I've done everything on the curriculum and have done it well. My point isn't that all kids my age can do the same, my point is that if you can do it you should be able to get the belt regardless of your age.


-Julian

 

[FlamingJulian]

The issue, from my standpoint, is a measure of understanding rather than physical skill. A 12-year-old has a very immature brain (clinically speaking) and is unlikely to have a depth of understanding I'd require of a black belt. Frankly, most 16-year-olds won't either, because most of their training would have come when their brain was very immature (it doesn't finish maturing until mid-20's for most people, as a frame of reference). For those reasons, I don't teach anyone under 16. If I did, it would be a different curriculum than the adult classes.

I'm not saying a 16-year-old can't be worthy of a black belt, even in my curriculum. It would just be rare enough that I don't feel the need to allow for it. If a student showed up who was capable, I'd train them to their level, and even consider making an exception on the promotion (one of the benefits of being outside an association). In mainline NGA (following the NGAA curriculum), it's technically possible for someone to get their black belt at 16. That's a stated minimum age. If they started training earlier, they'd start with the junior curriculum. After completing that, and when they are large enough/old enough/coordinated enough, they could move into the adult curriculum. If they completed the adult curriculum to the right level by 16, they could earn their black belt. To my knowledge, there haven't been any that young, but it's possible. I know one guy who got his at 17 or 18 (just before going to the Marines), but he'd been training since about age 8, and he was a fairly skilled and coordinated kid even when I first met him (he was probably 12).

I agree somewhat. I think that if you did everything required then why have an age requirement..? Either way I'm going for black belt very soon so I'm fine but I just don't understand. And making people wait longer in my opinion isn't necessary


-Julian

 

[FlamingJulian]

Rank only has meaning within the system that awards it. The KKW endorses the concept of baby black belts, and within that system, you'll be a black belt.
In our system, it is extremely unlikely that you would.

You have a point. "Baby black belts" lol that made me laugh


-Julian

 

[Tez3]

In my class I lead the class all the time and teach people twice my age and deal with little kids who act like they don't want to be there and I handle it well. I've taught disabled kids so I understand ur point but do you get mine? I've done everything on the curriculum and have done it well. My point isn't that all kids my age can do the same, my point is that if you can do it you should be able to get the belt regardless of your age.


-Julian

You can marry in the UK at 16, would you say you were mature enough for that?
The fact you think you do everything well and can breeze through it all shows a lack of maturity, what is your understanding of what having a black belt entails? You know it's the beginning of learning not the end?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I agree somewhat. I think that if you did everything required then why have an age requirement..? Either way I'm going for black belt very soon so I'm fine but I just don't understand. And making people wait longer in my opinion isn't necessary


-Julian

In some cases, it's based on when it's appropriate to start teaching the adult material. Even a highly-skilled student won't be able to get their BB by 16, or 18, or even 20 from me under my current structure, because they can't start training the adult material until age 16, and it will take years (certainly more than 4) to reach an appropriate level. I have placed a technical limit of 18 (based on the idea that I or some other instructor may teach kids in the future), to avoid having someone transition kids into the adult material too early. Realistically, someone starting from scratch can't get their BB from me in less than 6 or 7 years. If they started as a child (even in a related art), they might be able to shorten the number of years needed on the adult material. In that case, if they started the adult material at 14 or 15 and were exceptional, they might be able to meet requirements by 18. That's a stretch, but that's why I put the limit there. I don't want 12-year-olds working in the adult material. I just don't think it's appropriate for any except an exceptional few.

 

[RTKDCMB]

If you can do everything an adult 1st Dan can do (and i mean spar at an adult level, do all of the adult breaking techniques etc), have a good understanding and skill level of the techniques and have the right amount of maturity then I don't have a problem with it. Not everyone has the same level of maturity of other people of the same age. Many adults do not have the maturity required for an adult 1st Dan black belt.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Skills, fitness, techniques I'm sure you have. What about the maturity to teach people twice your age or even older? What about being able to help a victim of abuse learn martial arts in a safe way? What about having the patience to teach people without your agility and learning ability? What about keeping a mixed ability class interested and learning? What about dealing with students your age who chatter and give you cheek? What about getting the best out of students, understanding that people have families/careers/lives and can't spend as much time as you training? What do you know about child protection? You may have the physical skills but there's a whole lot more to being a black belt than doing techniques.

These are the qualities of a good instructor but being an instructor is a far cry from being just a black belt. Obtaining a black belt just means someone has learned the basics, it is only really the beginning of the learning process.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

These are the qualities of a good instructor but being an instructor is a far cry from being just a black belt. Obtaining a black belt just means someone has learned the basics, it is only really the beginning of the learning process.

I agree, though there are associations (more than I'd thought) where shodan appears to be the first instructor level.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Here's a perspective that I have as someone who trains in a system that doesn't use belts. The way a person sees the world at 30 is not the same way that they saw the world at 16. Martial Arts is the same way. Your perception of your skills and understanding of your system at 30 is not going to be the same as the understanding that you have now. This isn't a put down to you, it's life. If things go well and you continue to train then you'll be better and more skilled in your Martial Arts at age 30 than you are at age 16. When that happens you'll view your black belt in a different light. You may even question why were you allowed to have a black belt at the age of 16 when you are clearly more skilled at the age of 25 than you were at 16

I know that at the age of 44, I can easily beat the 20 year version of me and I thought I was tough at 20.

 

[Headhunter]

In my class I lead the class all the time and teach people twice my age and deal with little kids who act like they don't want to be there and I handle it well. I've taught disabled kids so I understand ur point but do you get mine? I've done everything on the curriculum and have done it well. My point isn't that all kids my age can do the same, my point is that if you can do it you should be able to get the belt regardless of your age.


-Julian

Just because you can doesn't mean you should fact is a black belt can go and run his own class you've always had another instructor with you I assume it'd be completely different if your on your own. Okay your getting yours fine but doesn't mean a lot of people like the idea. Also you don't know all the techniques you know of the techniques. Lee wedlake would always ask who knows a form and if people put their hand he'd ask them to tell you everything about the techique you know the moves but do you know the exact ways to do it do you different variations to teach do you know the exact positioning everything should be that takes a lot longer than a few years to learn

 

[Dirty Dog]

In my class I lead the class all the time and teach people twice my age and deal with little kids who act like they don't want to be there and I handle it well. I've taught disabled kids so I understand ur point but do you get mine? I've done everything on the curriculum and have done it well. My point isn't that all kids my age can do the same, my point is that if you can do it you should be able to get the belt regardless of your age.

Here's the thing... you do all this under the direct supervision of a qualified adult instructor. That would fit in perfectly with the KKW standards.
In our system, I expect to be able to point to any random 1st Dan, say "take over", go to Cozumel for a couple weeks and come back knowing that the system has been taught properly in my absence.

In the KKW, 4th Dan is the first "instructor" grade. In ours, it's 1st Dan.

And that is a large part of why you probably wouldn't be testing for 1st Dan at this point.