Do Kata/Forms Define the Style?

[Kung Fu Wang]

I agree that for application when grappling is involved a partner working against you is necessary to really learn it.

An AI controlled robot with humanlike muscle may be able to do the job. If AI can defeat the best chess player, AI should be able to defeat the best fighter.

 

[Abdelmajid3]

Many schools teach kata and represent them as being the foundation of their style. Yet, when you watch (or do) the workouts or sparring, it looks nothing like the forms! Why?

The simple answer is the three K's (kihon/basics, kumite/fighting, kata/forms) used to be ONE thing but became three separate things over time. In the beginning there was fighting: Defenses and counters against strikes and grabs. These combinations were linked together into forms for ease of practice and transmission of the techniques. Nobody knows what the workouts were like prior to 1920, but probably consisted mostly of two-man drills of these combinations (along with variants). The self-defense aspect, fighting, practice and kata looked the same (because they were) and all used the same techniques as taught in that style. Kata=fighting=drills.

When karate was introduced into the schools, things had to get simplified as classes were huge. The self-defense aspects were minimized; instead, simple execution of the individual moves was emphasized in repetitive drilling, taken out of context from the kata! Furthermore, the kata themselves were approached from a more exercise viewpoint as well. The latter 1930's up to the present saw increasing development of karate as a sport. This entailed a change in short range into longer range techniques and removal of many dangerous techniques. Fighting became sparring. Even kata had become performance sport, the execution overshadowing their self-defense applications - but they still retained the essence of their original purpose as defining the style.

By 1950 the division of the three K's were complete. Basic practice and sparring no longer looked like kata. In fact, a case can be made that sport sparring competition became its own style with little or no relationship to kata. TKD people, however, may say their drills and sparring do look a lot like their forms and I would agree. I think what happened was that instead of the style being a reflection their forms, their forms are a reflection their style. In other words, karate drills and sparring evolved AWAY from forms whereas TKD forms evolved TOWARDS their drills and sparring, or at least along with them. I have no idea if my TKD brothers would agree or disagree with my analysis. It's open to discussion.

As far as karate is concerned, kata (and their bunkai - true application) truly reflects and personifies the style. The fact that many see kata as just a leftover from times past is not kata's fault. It's just we've lost sight of our roots and have come to be conditioned to see today's karate as commonly practiced as "actual" karate and kata as the family's strange aunt. It's like a kid wandering off in the store and saying, "My parents lost me." But there is no reason that kata cannot be the major focus in karate being a self-defense art. The stomps, twists, gouges, elbows and knees are just as effective now as 200 yrs. ago. Indeed, there are several sensei today that stress the original style of karate combat and not the competitive incarnation. One can follow any path they want. I'm just showing how the other paths came about.

I think martial arts originated from the old and old Yoga!

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

A lot of tha animal behaviorist who thought otherwise are the ones who are saying what I'm saying now. They made the assumption that animals where 1 dimensional and that everything was running off of instinct and that the lack the abilities that I'm speaking of. They are the ones reversing course on things that they at first didn't think was possible. Don't take my word for it look it up read the studies.

This isn't something that I'm just coming off the top of my head.

There are at least two schools of thought on this. There is no final verdict at this point. There is a lot of evidence in favor of what you assert, however we know that correlation does not equal causation. The jury is still out on this. I’m not saying anyone is wrong here, I’m saying we don’t know for sure yet what this evidence may or may not mean in context. I’m not suggesting you are making up anything off the top of your head. If you took it that way, I apologize for my lack of clarity.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

An AI controlled robot with humanlike muscle may be able to do the job. If AI can defeat the best chess player, AI should be able to defeat the best fighter.

A simply terrifying idea. Why on eart(h would we want to teach AI to learn to defeat us? I don’t want to see it shooting guns either.

 

[Flying Crane]

What you see as sociopathic nature of humans is not something specific to humans as if we are broken. That's what I'm getting at. Not broken. It's a natural behavior.

Studying a system designed to physical hurt someone and not to accept the violence of it is strange to me. Finding peace in a system that was designed for training effective and efficient violence. Pretty much means that the person is embracing violent methods no matter how much they claim peace.

When I want peace I do not train violent things in violent ways. When I want peace I take a nice hike and enjoy things like the sun or the cold. But that's just me. But I don't see violence as something bad. Can it be bad, sure but it's not something that makes us broken or sociopaths.

I’m not going to microdebate something that is irrelevant to my earlier comment. I don’t care what behavior animals may display. You don’t have to like nor agree with my earlier comment. It’s ok.

 

[_Simon_]

My kata/form defines  your style.

Sort that koan out!

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

My kata/form defines  your style.

Sort that koan out!

It actually might, if you do it with…

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

It actually might, if you do it with…

1. You create a list of principle, strategy, power generation, speed generation, footwork, ... (grammar).
2. You create a toolbox that contain all of your tools (words).
3. You then create forms that contain what you have in 1 and 2.

For example, you create a form that contains 4 moves - front kick, jab, cross, roundhouse kick. In this short form you have covered:

- jab, cross, front kick, roundhouse kick.
- use kick to set up punch, use punch to set up punch, use punch to set up kick.

After your students have learned this form, they can create their own form such as:

- side kick, spin back fist, hook, roundhouse kick.
- roundhouse kick, hook, uppercut, side kick.
- ...

I think this is the best way to teach/learn. You teach grammar and words. Your students create sentences.

 

[marvin8]

Do Kata/Forms Define the Style?

No. More specifically, the principles/concepts that guide the forms and training defines the style. The techniques within the form should be limited examples of the principles of the style.

Iain Abernethy, "I see kata not as a record of techniques, but as a record of combative principles (which are demonstrated through the bunkai techniques). "

 

[isshinryuronin]

No. More specifically, the principles/concepts that guide the forms and training defines the style. The techniques within the form should be limited examples of the principles of the style.

Iain Abernethy, "I see kata not as a record of techniques, but as a record of combative principles (which are demonstrated through the bunkai techniques). "

Sensei Abernethy did a great job in this video of explaining what kata really is and the basics of interpreting its movements. If this is not understood the actual techniques cannot be properly employed. Although this understanding is getting better compared to a couple of decades ago, I'd say most black belts still have a limited understanding of what they're actually doing while performing a kata.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I see kata not as a record of techniques, but as a record of combative principles ...

Some forms may not contain any techniques (words) and principles (grammar). What's the purpose of such form?

What techniques and principles can you find in this form?

 

[JowGaWolf]

Some forms may not contain any techniques (words) and principles (grammar). What's the purpose of such form?

What techniques and principles can you find in this form?

I see some techniques in the form. I'm only saying this because Jow Ga does smiliar movements.

There is also seems to be some developmental exercises which are not techniques. In the video I see what appears to be tension exercies which help develop explosiveness. Tension exercises would fall under the principle for developing explosive power.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Sensei Abernethy did a great job in this video of explaining what kata really is and the basics of interpreting its movements. If this is not understood the actual techniques cannot be properly employed. Although this understanding is getting better compared to a couple of decades ago, I'd say most black belts still have a limited understanding of what they're actually doing while performing a kata.

It always boils down to "use what you train" Follow that simple rule and people will learn how to use the techniques through trial and error. By doing that the first generation should gain enough information to make it easier for the second generation to learn the techniques that the first generation. People who I train now learn Jow Ga application much faster than I learned it, but they have to use it when fighting because they still need to develop the timing and identification skills needed to apply the techniques. Most importantly they will develop the trust that is needed to know that a technique will work.

By doing this the school and it's students should grow "by leaps and bounds."

 

[isshinryuronin]

It always boils down to "use what you train" Follow that simple rule and people will learn how to use the techniques through trial and error. By doing that the first generation should gain enough information to make it easier for the second generation to learn the techniques that the first generation. People who I train now learn Jow Ga application much faster than I learned it, but they have to use it when fighting because they still need to develop the timing and identification skills needed to apply the techniques. Most importantly they will develop the trust that is needed to know that a technique will work.

By doing this the school and it's students should grow "by leaps and bounds."

The majority of TMA (specifically karate) schools do not see kata and its techniques as fighting as they've been programmed to see them as two separate things. That they are two different divisions in competition is an indicator of this. This is where the evolution of modern karate has taken us. Most of kata techniques are not applicable in sparring competition (though some are) as kata was not designed for sport fighting, but rather close in self-defense.

But more basic to the question of the nature of kata is being able to understand, as Abernathy pointed out, is the relative positioning between you and the attacker and that the hands are often doing something other than what they appear to be doing. Some moves in kata are "coded." A couple of examples of this is that when one of your hands is touching the other arm a grab is usually being done and that twisting into a cross stance indicates a joint lock. By knowing this code one can better decipher the meaning of the kata and thus use its techniques in real self-defense situations (providing they are drilled with a partner).

 

[HighKick]

The majority of TMA (specifically karate) schools do not see kata and its techniques as fighting as they've been programmed to see them as two separate things. That they are two different divisions in competition is an indicator of this. This is where the evolution of modern karate has taken us. Most of kata techniques are not applicable in sparring competition (though some are) as kata was not designed for sport fighting, but rather close in self-defense.

But more basic to the question of the nature of kata is being able to understand, as Abernathy pointed out, is the relative positioning between you and the attacker and that the hands are often doing something other than what they appear to be doing. Some moves in kata are "coded." A couple of examples of this is that when one of your hands is touching the other arm a grab is usually being done and that twisting into a cross stance indicates a joint lock. By knowing this code one can better decipher the meaning of the kata and thus use its techniques in real self-defense situations (providing they are drilled with a partner).

Most of kata techniques are not applicable in sparring competition

I would not go that far. It is imperative for the instructor to show the application is forms and how they apply to sparring & SD. And also imperative to explain how the movement may be done differently. But it is still the same base skill.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

I would not go that far. It is imperative for the instructor to show the application is forms and how they apply to sparring & SD. And also imperative to explain how the movement may be done differently. But it is still the same base skill.

Are you saying that you learned the application from the kata? That’s much different than how I teach. The forms(kata) are for review and polishing. The basic techniques need to be in place and understood before I teach any form.

 

[isshinryuronin]

I would not go that far. It is imperative for the instructor to show the application is forms and how they apply to sparring & SD. And also imperative to explain how the movement may be done differently. But it is still the same base skill.

I would definitely go that far. TKD forms evolved in the age of sport and so reflect this with more long ranged kicks and punches. But earlier forms as found in Okinawan karate styles and to a lesser extent, Japanese, developed as close quarters self-defense grab counters when sport sparring wasn't even imagined.

Seiuchin - 1 straight punch, 2 uppercuts, 0 kicks
Naihanchi (tekki) - 0-2 punches, a few sweeps, 0 kicks
Chinto - 5 punches, 5 kicks (all front kicks)

(There may be some slight variation between styles)

These show just 10% or less of sparring allowed moves (there may be a few more allowed, but seldom if ever, scored) found in the kata. Other katas may have up to 25%. In any event, it's clear that most offensive moves in traditional kata are not the kind that would be awarded points in a tournament as they are concerned mainly with grappling related moves.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Most of kata techniques are not applicable in sparring competition ...

Some forms are designed for sparring.

1. "Groin kick, face punch" form.



1. "Groin kick, face punch" application.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Seiuchin - 1 straight punch, 2 uppercuts, 0 kicks
Naihanchi (tekki) - 0-2 punches, a few sweeps, 0 kicks
Chinto - 5 punches, 5 kicks (all front kicks)

It's not that hard to create a form that contains

- jab, cross, hook, uppercut.
- front kick, side kick, roundhouse kick, spin hook kick.

Don't expect someone will create this form for you. You should create this form yourself.

 

[isshinryuronin]

It's not that hard to create a form that contains

- jab, cross, hook, uppercut.
- front kick, side kick, roundhouse kick, spin hook kick.

Don't expect someone will create this form for you. You should create this form yourself.

Why would I want to do this? I can practice these basics outside a form and do.