Do Kata/Forms Define the Style?

[Flying Crane]

I don't know why we think animals are so much different than we are. They express the same emotions so why would watching violence to be entertained be an exception?

They share all emotions except the specific emotion on of being entertained by violence? Humans being violent is only natural. The evolution of humans is not get rid of the violence but to be in better control of the violence and to not let it become something that destroys our growth as humans.

So.. where did I say that animals share every emotion with humans with the one exception that they are not entertained by violence?

Honestly, when it comes to this I believe that animals are smarter than humans. They know that violence could lead to their own demise. Violence is used when necessary to accomplish a goal, such as secure food, secure territory, secure mating rights, fight off a predator, etc. These are things for which violence is often necessary, and yes, it is a natural order in the world.

However, predators are careful about the prey that they select because they know that they can be injured by the prey and those injuries can lead to their death. Animals fighting for territory or mating rights are careful about which individuals to challenge, and they often back down before serious injury occurs when they can tell that they will lose. These are activities for which the survival of the individual and the survival of the species are reliant on, so animals engage in them when necessary. Animals have no concept of going to see the doctor to get patched up from their injuries. That luxury does not exist in their reality. If they get injured, they either manage to heal and survive, or they don’t and they die. Animals understand this risk and they use violence sparingly. They don’t engage in violence for no good reason. They don’t construct an octagon and welcome challengers for the simple sake of a game of king-of-the-hill and the adoration of spectators, with whom they will never mate and never share food. You believe animals find entertainment in violence, either as a participant or as a spectator? I believe animals are too smart for that because they understand the very serious nature of violence within their reality.

@Wing Woo Gar shared some interesting experiences that he had while working with animals. I don’t have an answer to that but somehow I doubt it rises to the same level of entertainment that humans exhibit. And what does it matter? Animals exhibit behavior that can be very similar to behavior that humans exhibit. That does not take away from my earlier comments: in my view, violence as entertainment seems rather sociopathic to me.

I understand that I am something of an anomaly here on Martialtalk. I have spent the majority of my life practicing martial methods, yet I loathe violence and see it as something to be avoided whenever possible. The longer I train, the more I feel that way. I am not a fan of MMA or boxing or wrestling nor any other martial competition. I am disinterested in team sports and actively dislike football and hockey, because of the element of physical violence that is brought to the field or the ice, particularly with the studies on the long term effects of concussions, especially in young people. Engaging in those activities is, in my opinion, stupid. I don’t see value in them. That’s me. I see the world differently than most people, including most people who hang out on forums dedicated to martial practice. It’s fine, people are welcome to do what they will and I rarely speak out about it because what other people want to do isn’t much of my business. I guess I just spoke up this time.

Take from it what you will. I don’t much care.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

So.. where did I say that animals share every emotion with humans with the one exception that they are not entertained by violence?

Honestly, when it comes to this I believe that animals are smarter than humans. They know that violence could lead to their own demise. Violence is used when necessary to accomplish a goal, such as secure food, secure territory, secure mating rights, fight off a predator, etc. These are things for which violence is often necessary, and yes, it is a natural order in the world.

However, predators are careful about the prey that they select because they know that they can be injured by the prey and those injuries can lead to their death. Animals fighting for territory or mating rights are careful about which individuals to challenge, and they often back down before serious injury occurs when they can tell that they will lose. These are activities for which the survival of the individual and the survival of the species are reliant on, so animals engage in them when necessary. Animals have no concept of going to see the doctor to get patched up from their injuries. That luxury does not exist in their reality. If they get injured, they either manage to heal and survive, or they don’t and they die. Animals understand this risk and they use violence sparingly. They don’t engage in violence for no good reason. They don’t construct an octagon and welcome challengers for the simple sake of a game of king-of-the-hill and the adoration of spectators, with whom they will never mate and never share food. You believe animals find entertainment in violence, either as a participant or as a spectator? I believe animals are too smart for that because they understand the very serious nature of violence within their reality.

@Wing Woo Gar shared some interesting experiences that he had while working with animals. I don’t have an answer to that but somehow I doubt it rises to the same level of entertainment that humans exhibit. And what does it matter? Animals exhibit behavior that can be very similar to behavior that humans exhibit. That does not take away from my earlier comments: in my view, violence as entertainment seems rather sociopathic to me.

I understand that I am something of an anomaly here on Martialtalk. I have spent the majority of my life practicing martial methods, yet I loathe violence and see it as something to be avoided whenever possible. The longer I train, the more I feel that way. I am not a fan of MMA or boxing or wrestling nor any other martial competition. I am disinterested in team sports and actively dislike football and hockey, because of the element of physical violence that is brought to the field or the ice, particularly with the studies on the long term effects of concussions, especially in young people. Engaging in those activities is, in my opinion, stupid. I don’t see value in them. That’s me. I see the world differently than most people, including most people who hang out on forums dedicated to martial practice. It’s fine, people are welcome to do what they will and I rarely speak out about it because what other people want to do isn’t much of my business. I guess I just spoke up this time.

Take from it what you will. I don’t much care.

It’s actually a very interesting idea, someone could find a thesis in there somewhere. I don’t know your personal habits but maybe you are analogous to a bonobo.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Let’s bring this full circle, what does the bonobo style kata look like?

 

[Flying Crane]

It’s actually a very interesting idea, someone could find a thesis in there somewhere. I don’t know your personal habits but maybe you are analogous to a bonobo.

That is funny. When I was financially more solvent than I am now I was a supporter of the Friends of the Bonobos, the charity branch of Lola Ya Bonobo, the bonobo rescue sanctuary in The Congo.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

If form doesn't define a style, what define a style?

Form is like a book. When you write a book, are you going to include what you think is important in that book?

In my long fist system, all the information is recorded in the forms. There exists no hidden information that exists in the drills but doesn't exist in the forms.

I would definitely say that the forms in NGA don't accurately define the art. That's true with the mainline version of the art, as well as the offshoot I taught. In fact, it's my opinion that the instructors who viewed the classical forms as defining the art nearly universally missed how the principles of the art fit together, because they were too focused on trying to fit things within those 50 forms, rather than focusing on the principles those forms teach.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

they were too focused on trying to fit things within those 50 forms, rather than focusing on the principles those forms teach.

Do your forms record the principle/strategy?

If principles are recorded in the form, does it mean the form define the style?

For example, if your form contains a kick-punch combo. It contains the principle/strategy that use kick to set up punch. The form may record only front kick, straight punch. But students can train:

- side kick, back fist.
- roundhouse kick, hammer fist.
- ...

 

[JowGaWolf]

Animals have no concept of going to see the doctor to get patched up from their injuries.

They have concept of seeking help when they are injured which is the same as going to the doctor. Some primates have even been recorded as using medicine to treat bad wounds. While others animals have gone to humans for help for injuries.

https://www.cnn.com/2022/02/07/world/chimpanzee-insects-wounds-scn/index.html

So when you say that they have no concept there is evidence that they treat each other with the understanding that what they do is addressing the injury. Animals get sick like humans do and they do things to treat it.

Animals fighting for territory or mating rights are careful about which individuals to challenge, and they often back down before serious injury occurs when they can tell that they will lose.

Not always. Certain species will do this. Other species will fight until injury prevents one of them continuing or until death occurs. In some cases if the losing animal doesn't leave the area It will eventually be killed.

Lots of documentation of animals being seriously injured during mating season.

However, predators are careful about the prey that they select because they know that they can be injured by the prey and those injuries can lead to their death.

Humans do the same thing. Predators are picky about who they will victimize for the same reason. That's self-defense 101 don't do things that make you a target. Bullies don't try to target people who are stronger than they are.

They don’t engage in violence for no good reason.

Yes they do. Humans hunt for sport and so do animals. There are videos of this and scientific documentation of this. I used to have a dog that used to kill birds for fun.

They don’t construct an octagon and welcome challengers for the simple sake of a game of king-of-the-hill and the adoration of spectators, with whom they will never mate and never share food. You believe animals find entertainment in violence, either as a participant or as a spectator? I believe animals are too smart for that because they understand the very serious nature of violence within their reality.

Violence and being smart are not the same thing. They do not depend on each other to exist. The reason humans take do much risk is because we have an incredible ability to treat our injuries. This wasn't always the case. Treating wounds is one thing. Surgery is on an entirely different level. Many tribal villages do not take the risks that people who have access to modern surgery take.

 

[JowGaWolf]

If form doesn't define a style, what define a style?

The approach defines the style. How you think on should approach an attacker will define how a jab is to be used.

I may use to jab to occupy space to set up a long fist technique. Another system says this is wasted movement to punch without the purpose of trying to land the jab. Sometimes this variance exists in within the same system . Same technique different belief in thr approach

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

The approach defines the style. How you think on should approach an attacker will define how a jab is to be used.

I may use to jab to occupy space to set up a long fist technique. Another system says this is wasted movement to punch without the purpose of trying to land the jab. Sometimes this variance exists in within the same system . Same technique different belief in thr approach

In your MA system, can you find any principle/strategy that's not recorded in your form?

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

In your MA system, can you find any principle/strategy that's not recorded in your form?

Yes. There are things happening that cannot be seen. Can you see my root? Can you see my relationship to myself in relationship to the earth? How will I demonstrate my root to you without physical contact? Structure can maybe be observed, but torques etc. maybe not so much. The Physical contact experience is the only true test. Mid level students that become frustrated often conflate superior root and/or structure with strength, size, or time invested. That’s not usually the case. How will I translate this skill in a form? How will that one form, or even several, define what I have to offer? How will the uneducated eye glean anything useful or nutritious from an advanced form in the absence of an instructor? That’s an actual reason for so much opportunity in CMA for charlatans, hucksters, and half assed ignorant attempts to sell or put a name on something. Strategy is a static concept that only works maybe once when applied to an individual opponent. That is not art, that is a programmed reaction to a predicated action. It’s up to you, if you only have a need to conquer the name at the top of a given scoreboard, then you use strategy to beat that opponent. That’s great, but that strategy is likely worthless against a host of other opponents or situations beyond a competitive setting. I mean to strive for maximum control and reflexive efficiency of motion in my human. Balance, Posture, Coordination, are my maxims that dictate the system, style, or whatever anyone wants to call the very small thing that I teach. I pride myself that anyone can take what I teach and apply to other endeavors. I don’t teach the most deadly, or even the most effective anything, but I like to hope that earnest people who do the training consistently get something useful from the practice that can be used for fighting but is also useful everyday in some other capacity. I need to come up with a form that somehow displays that I guess.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

They have concept of seeking help when they are injured which is the same as going to the doctor. Some primates have even been recorded as using medicine to treat bad wounds. While others animals have gone to humans for help for injuries.

https://www.cnn.com/2022/02/07/world/chimpanzee-insects-wounds-scn/index.html

So when you say that they have no concept there is evidence that they treat each other with the understanding that what they do is addressing the injury. Animals get sick like humans do and they do things to treat it.



Not always. Certain species will do this. Other species will fight until injury prevents one of them continuing or until death occurs. In some cases if the losing animal doesn't leave the area It will eventually be killed.

Lots of documentation of animals being seriously injured during mating season.


Humans do the same thing. Predators are picky about who they will victimize for the same reason. That's self-defense 101 don't do things that make you a target. Bullies don't try to target people who are stronger than they are.


Yes they do. Humans hunt for sport and so do animals. There are videos of this and scientific documentation of this. I used to have a dog that used to kill birds for fun.


Violence and being smart are not the same thing. They do not depend on each other to exist. The reason humans take do much risk is because we have an incredible ability to treat our injuries. This wasn't always the case. Treating wounds is one thing. Surgery is on an entirely different level. Many tribal villages do not take the risks that people who have access to modern surgery take.

That’s a very slippery slope. Animal behaviorists will find several faults in your arguments here regardless of sentiments in your favor. Anthropomorphic generalization is frowned upon despite my anecdotal assertions, or personal opinions, which are worth love all. We may have strong emotional reactions to what we “feel” is happening when observing animal behavior, but science tells us we are rarely objective in this regard( another possible thesis).

 

[JowGaWolf]

That’s a very slippery slope. Animal behaviorists will find several faults in your arguments here regardless of sentiments in your favor. Anthropomorphic generalization is frowned upon despite my anecdotal assertions, or personal opinions, which are worth love all. We may have strong emotional reactions to what we “feel” is happening when observing animal behavior, but science tells us we are rarely objective in this regard( another possible thesis).

A lot of tha animal behaviorist who thought otherwise are the ones who are saying what I'm saying now. They made the assumption that animals where 1 dimensional and that everything was running off of instinct and that the lack the abilities that I'm speaking of. They are the ones reversing course on things that they at first didn't think was possible. Don't take my word for it look it up read the studies.

This isn't something that I'm just coming off the top of my head.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Yes. There are things happening that cannot be seen.

So, a MA system cannot be recorded in computer. It's art and not science. You cannot learn MA from computer. You can only learn from a life person.

There must be a way to solve this problem.

A: I want to learn MA system X.
B: Here is a DVD that contain all the information that you will need.

May be one day one can learn MA from AI instead of life person.

 

[JowGaWolf]

In your MA system, can you find any principle/strategy that's not recorded in your form?

Definitely.

A lot of tha animal behaviorist who thought otherwise are the ones who are saying what I'm saying now. They made the assumption that animals where 1 dimensional and that everything was running off of instinct and that the lack the abilities that I'm speaking of. They are the ones reversing course on things that they at first didn't think was possible. Don't take my word for it look it up read the studies.

This isn't something that I'm just coming off the top of my head.

Crocodiles Play, Too, Study Says—Why Do Animals Have Fun?

For the first time, scientists have documented several species of crocodile relatives playing—but scientists still don't know what animals get out of having fun.

www.nationalgeographic.com

If an animal can express one emotion the it is more reasonable to think that it can express other emotions and less reasonable to think that they only have one emotion.

By the way life is naturally a slippery slope.

 

[Flying Crane]

They have concept of seeking help when they are injured which is the same as going to the doctor. Some primates have even been recorded as using medicine to treat bad wounds. While others animals have gone to humans for help for injuries.

https://www.cnn.com/2022/02/07/world/chimpanzee-insects-wounds-scn/index.html

So when you say that they have no concept there is evidence that they treat each other with the understanding that what they do is addressing the injury. Animals get sick like humans do and they do things to treat it.



Not always. Certain species will do this. Other species will fight until injury prevents one of them continuing or until death occurs. In some cases if the losing animal doesn't leave the area It will eventually be killed.

Lots of documentation of animals being seriously injured during mating season.


Humans do the same thing. Predators are picky about who they will victimize for the same reason. That's self-defense 101 don't do things that make you a target. Bullies don't try to target people who are stronger than they are.


Yes they do. Humans hunt for sport and so do animals. There are videos of this and scientific documentation of this. I used to have a dog that used to kill birds for fun.


Violence and being smart are not the same thing. They do not depend on each other to exist. The reason humans take do much risk is because we have an incredible ability to treat our injuries. This wasn't always the case. Treating wounds is one thing. Surgery is on an entirely different level. Many tribal villages do not take the risks that people who have access to modern surgery take.

Jeezuz, what the hell? You are completely missing the point in this little offshoot from the main discussion. I’ll state it again: animals exhibit behavior that can resemble human behavior. So what? I don’t care. It makes no difference to my earlier comment: the human species’ relationship to violence seems to reveal our sociopathic nature. I don’t care what other animals do.

 

[JowGaWolf]

So, a MA system cannot be recorded in computer. It's art and not science. You cannot learn MA from computer. You can only learn from a life person.

There must be a way to solve this problem.

A: I want to learn MA system X.
B: Here is a DVD that contain all the information that you will need.

May be one day one can learn MA from AI instead of life person.

You can learn some things from the computer. Jabs, kicks, form to an extent provided that nothing is left out. Application on the other hand not so much. For me I have to feel an application done yo me in order to help me understand where the pressure needs to be applied. Things like that will be difficult for me. One of the things I kepsayi g at the meetup was that I need to feel what the application feels like.

 

[isshinryuronin]

You can learn some things from the computer. Jabs, kicks, form to an extent provided that nothing is left out.

You can't learn how to initiate power, how to relax during the move, or how to tense at the end. Nor can you learn how to transfer weight or put weight into the technique, etc. from a video/computer/book. An experienced practitioner may be able to learn something, but beginner/intermediate needs an instructor to watch him drill.

I agree that for application when grappling is involved a partner working against you is necessary to really learn it.

 

[JowGaWolf]

It makes no difference to my earlier comment: the human species’ relationship to violence seems to reveal our sociopathic nature. I don’t care what other animals do.

What you see as sociopathic nature of humans is not something specific to humans as if we are broken. That's what I'm getting at. Not broken. It's a natural behavior.

Studying a system designed to physical hurt someone and not to accept the violence of it is strange to me. Finding peace in a system that was designed for training effective and efficient violence. Pretty much means that the person is embracing violent methods no matter how much they claim peace.

When I want peace I do not train violent things in violent ways. When I want peace I take a nice hike and enjoy things like the sun or the cold. But that's just me. But I don't see violence as something bad. Can it be bad, sure but it's not something that makes us broken or sociopaths.

 

[JowGaWolf]

You can't learn how to initiate power, how to relax during the move, or how to tense at the end. Nor can you learn how to transfer weight or put weight into the technique, etc. from a video/computer/book.

I believe that. People have trouble with that in person. I was training the muay thai guy this very thing on how to use sinking power. He tried I saw him sink but that force never made it to the strike.

That's also one of the things I think people need to feel in order to understand it. Sinking force is difficult to grasp until you can feel it applied and it's still difficult to apply it.

Maybe a specially designed scale could help with that.

 

[JowGaWolf]

You can't learn how to initiate power, how to relax during the move, or how to tense at the end. Nor can you learn how to transfer weight or put weight into the technique, etc. from a video/computer/book. An experienced practitioner may be able to learn something, but beginner/intermediate needs an instructor to watch him drill.

I agree that for application when grappling is involved a partner working against you is necessary to really learn it.

Timing is another thing. Every forgets to mention how to notice the slight shifts of weight and body that are a part of timing. I'm not even sure a go pro would be able to capture that since cameras don't detect motion the sane ways our eyes do.