discouraged by the TKD community

[InfiniteLoop]

Whoah?! You seem to be taking everything I've said to be against you personally? This and the previous replies from you over the past couple of days. Have I said something before all of this to offend you?

Nothing new under the sun. He may have been a good fighter in his day but he clearly has reading comprehension issues on this forum.

 

[andyjeffries]

Nothing new under the sun. He may have been a good fighter in his day but he clearly has reading comprehension issues on this forum.

I just want to say I'm not a moderator here (but I am elsewhere), that type of reply doesn't help the conversation. I'm trying to ensure it all stays on a friendly (darn it, I'll say it, professional) level here and we all can discuss our different points of view without feeling like the others are attacking them. That's why I extended an apology. So while I appreciate you may feel your comment was supportive of me (and if that was your intention then I at least thank you for that intention), it won't help move the discussion back to a place where people don't feel attacked.

 

[InfiniteLoop]

I just want to say I'm not a moderator here (but I am elsewhere), that type of reply doesn't help the conversation. I'm trying to ensure it all stays on a friendly (darn it, I'll say it, professional) level here and we all can discuss our different points of view without feeling like the others are attacking them. That's why I extended an apology. So while I appreciate you may feel your comment was supportive of me (and if that was your intention then I at least thank you for that intention), it won't help move the discussion back to a place where people don't feel attacked.

I was simply giving you a heads up. This won't go away. He is many times argumentative over things he simply misread. I have given up explaining the correct interpretation.

So now you don't have to waste time asking these questions anymore.

 

[skribs]

TBC, I meant to say "they were replace in 1975". AndyJefferies said "they were replaced" with no inference to KKW. That is taken to imply en masse, which is simply incorrect.

This is exactly where things are misunderstood and go off the rails. I infer that sometimes we get so blinded by living inside certain walls that we completely forget there is a whole lot more going on outside of them.

I (and others clearly) understood what he was saying but for the sake of everyone it is important to clarify something like this.

You and I have had a similar conversation. As I recall, you were on the bashing side of KKW forms (particularly Taegueks or possibly Yudanja, I forget) and I was on the side taking up for them. And I still will in the right format.

So, where be you? I made the argument with you because I was certain it was with someone who has/had limited experience with the forms.
I made the argument with Mr. Jefferies for the same reason with the Palgwe's (to which he admitted). Who has the right for such a baseless argument?
Heck, show me where KKW has a breakdown explaining the purpose of the Taeguek movements, beyond competition and I will retract my opinion. I mean a detailed purpose; not a breakdown of the physical movements which are a dime a dozen on Youtube and vary greatly.
Show me some depth.

I took it to mean they were replaced in KKW, especially in the context of him talking about KKW requirements.

My criticisms of the forms are not unique to the Taegeuks or Yudanja. At the time, my criticism was of the Palgwe forms. Now that I have more exposure to the Taegeuks and the differences in the ways those techniques are done, I can actually see a little bit of what some of you are saying regarding what those techniques could be. I still stand by my original opinion that for a form to directly teach practical application, the base version of the technique should be used as described in the form, and that the forms serve the purpose of building coordination more than teaching fighting skills. I also still prefer the Palgwe style.

However, my previous comment was a statement of fact, not opinion. It is a fact that the Kukkiwon requires the Taegeuks, and does not require the Palgwes. My own opinion on any of the forms is irrelevant to that fact.

 

[InfiniteLoop]

It is a fact that the Kukkiwon requires the Taegeuks, and does not require the Palgwes. My own opinion on any of the forms is irrelevant to that fact.

Is a black belt from the 70s palgwae days still valid?

 

[skribs]

Is a black belt from the 70s palgwae days still valid?

Irrelevant to the discussion of what KKW requires today.

 

[InfiniteLoop]

Irrelevant to the discussion of what KKW requires today.

Eh That's what I'm asking.. You can't administer KKW certificates without Tageuk forms, right? . I'm guessing a Palgwae black belt holds no more merit than an ITF one.

 

[skribs]

Eh That's what I'm asking.. You can't administer KKW certificates without Tageuk forms, right? . I'm guessing a Palgwae black belt holds no more merit than an ITF one.

You still have your black belt. To progress further you will need to know the Taegeuks. To promote, you're supposed to teach the Taegeuks.

 

[dvcochran]

Is a black belt from the 70s palgwae days still valid?

I do not know what you mean. Palgwe is a form set. The word Palgwe means (represents) the number 8.
There is a ton of deep meaning here in regards to the trigrams.

 

[dvcochran]

Pretty much for me, yes. There'll be improved co-ordination and power, etc - but they won't learn a hidden secret to a low block later from my dojang.



From my experience teaching beginners none of the Taekwondo blocks seem natural



Whoah?! You seem to be taking everything I've said to be against you personally? This and the previous replies from you over the past couple of days. Have I said something before all of this to offend you? You seem to be jumping from a discussion level (I wouldn't even really consider this a debate) to taking my messages as if I'm flippantly trying to dismiss you. I'm genuinely not trying to do that at all!

I respect you and while we may differ on some of our opinions, I'm just discussing how we differ in our thoughts, because it's interesting.

If I have done something before all of this (or even during all of this) to offend you, I'm genuinely sorry - it was never my intention and except that it feels (from my side) like you're going from 0-100 SUPER QUICKLY in your replies to me, it's never felt like this was anything other than discussion...

Nope you have done nothing to me and I bear you on I’ll will.
It is frustrating and disappointing to someone who has been deeply involved in TKD as long as I have to hear such shallow answers and that they sound ‘okay’ to you, someone who is responsible for carrying the mantle. It reeks of a lack of depth in training.
So I will tell you what I have told Skribs many times. Get outside your current training walls. There is a great big TKD world out there. If you just drink the KKW koolaid you will miss it.
I am passionate and fully vested in TKD. I will always defend it. Degradation is something I see more and more every day it seem like.
If you feel I was aggressive so be it, but I assure you I was not. My apologies for any misunderstanding but my hope is to give you food for thought. To push you, and everyone else, to dive deeper.
I was a very engrained in WT in my day, making it to the 2nd round of the Olympic trials (not games) in ‘88. I have a perfect state and regional record foe 3 years. We have over 200 AAU/WT golds at our schools. So I understand the feelings of using TKD as a sport. If that is your wheelhouse that is fine and well. But represent yourself as such; not as a TKD instructor, much less a Master (I do not know your rank).
Again, NOT being aggressive. Just stating my position and opinion from a position of experience.
I am not trying to cause friction or I’ll will and hope this in no way offends you.
Regardless , chew on it a while and then let’s discuss it some more.

 

[InfiniteLoop]

I was a very engrained in WT in my day, making it to the 2nd round of the Olympic trials (not games) in ‘88. I have a perfect state and regional record foe 3 years. We have over 200 AAU/WT golds at our schools. So I understand the feelings of using TKD as a sport. If that is your wheelhouse that is fine and well. But represent yourself as such; not as a TKD instructor, much less a Master (I do not know your rank).
Again, NOT being aggressive. Just stating my position and opinion from a position of experience.
I am not trying to cause friction or I’ll will and hope this in no way offends you.
Regardless , chew on it a while and then let’s discuss it some more.

I knew dvcochran was a good fighter

You can call it psychic if you want..

 

[skribs]

Nope you have done nothing to me and I bear you on I’ll will.
It is frustrating and disappointing to someone who has been deeply involved in TKD as long as I have to hear such shallow answers and that they sound ‘okay’ to you, someone who is responsible for carrying the mantle. It reeks of a lack of depth in training.
So I will tell you what I have told Skribs many times. Get outside your current training walls. There is a great big TKD world out there. If you just drink the KKW koolaid you will miss it.
I am passionate and fully vested in TKD. I will always defend it. Degradation is something I see more and more every day it seem like.
If you feel I was aggressive so be it, but I assure you I was not. My apologies for any misunderstanding but my hope is to give you food for thought. To push you, and everyone else, to dive deeper.
I was a very engrained in WT in my day, making it to the 2nd round of the Olympic trials (not games) in ‘88. I have a perfect state and regional record foe 3 years. We have over 200 AAU/WT golds at our schools. So I understand the feelings of using TKD as a sport. If that is your wheelhouse that is fine and well. But represent yourself as such; not as a TKD instructor, much less a Master (I do not know your rank).
Again, NOT being aggressive. Just stating my position and opinion from a position of experience.
I am not trying to cause friction or I’ll will and hope this in no way offends you.
Regardless , chew on it a while and then let’s discuss it some more.

At least I know I'm not the sole target of your delusional narcissistic rants. I'm in good company if I'm in the same group as @andyjeffries .

I can't tell which part I like more. The part where, after telling him he doesn't deserve to call himself a Master, you tell him "I hope this doesn't offend you," or the part where you tell him to chew on your "advice" and then you'll give him more of the same.

 

[dvcochran]

At least I know I'm not the sole target of your delusional narcissistic rants. I'm in good company if I'm in the same group as @andyjeffries .

I can't tell which part I like more. The part where, after telling him he doesn't deserve to call himself a Master, you tell him "I hope this doesn't offend you," or the part where you tell him to chew on your "advice" and then you'll give him more of the same.

Haha!! I expect more blowback from you. That wasn't even bush league.
I Never said he didn't deserve to be a master and clearly stated I do not know his rank. I said that what He said did not sound like a master. You are hearing what you want to hear because you do not like me, nor do you like hearing the truth sometimes.

And why are you fighting his fights for him? I am certain he can fight his own battles and will respond in due. For that matter, there is no fight or battle. It is simply a discussion.

So explain which parts are delusional and narcissistic? The parts you do not like; you know, the truthful parts? But I forgot, you are in the camp where a down block is taught in a matter of minutes and that is the end of it.

I am sincere about what I said. That doesn't mean I am going to crawfish about my position.

I never said what I would "give him more" of anything. I said reflect on what I said and let's talk some more. How is that a bad thing?

So, enlighten me with your plethora of school or business experience? Or your competition record or how many others you have helped succeed on the mat? Or work record for that matter.
This is a Martial Arts site. People come here looking for information and other people come here to give information. Others lie somewhere in the middle. Why do you take offense to any of these?

 

[skribs]

Haha!! I expect more blowback from you. That wasn't even bush league.

Believe it or not, I'm trying to be nice.

I Never said he didn't deserve to be a master and clearly stated I do not know his rank. I said that what He said did not sound like a master. You are hearing what you want to hear because you do not like me, nor do you like hearing the truth sometimes.

You said he's clearly not one. However, I know he is very highly ranked.

And why are you fighting his fights for him? I am certain he can fight his own battles and will respond in due. For that matter, there is no fight or battle. It is simply a discussion.

You brought me up. You brought me into this.

So explain which parts are delusional and narcissistic? The parts you do not like; you know, the truthful parts? But I forgot, you are in the camp where a down block is taught in a matter of minutes and that is the end of it.

The part where you decide you're the arbiter of Taekwondo, and that everyone should follow your advice. You're clearly smarter than everyone, and are being sooooo generous by sharing your wisdom with us.

I am sincere about what I said. That doesn't mean I am going to crawfish about my position.

I never said what I would "give him more" of anything. I said reflect on what I said and let's talk some more. How is that a bad thing?

Because for you, "talk" means, "you shut up and listen to everything I say."

So, enlighten me with your plethora of school or business experience? Or your competition record or how many others you have helped succeed on the mat? Or work record for that matter.

See? This is exactly what I'm talking about.

1. Most of this is irrelevant to the discussion we're having.
2. You know you've got more experience in TKD than I do, and that business is not my strong suit (from another thread). This is just to pump yourself up and make yourself look smart so you can force-feed me some of your "advice".
3. I don't know the exact number. I haven't kept track. I'd wager high hundreds to low thousands that I've helped succeed.
4. Work record? Irrelevant. But since you asked, I've steadily been employed since I was 16. For the last several years, my average work day has been from 6:30 AM to 9:30 PM, plus a few hours on Saturdays. This might even be one area I have you beat. If not, then for the first time on this forum you'll have impressed me.

This is a Martial Arts site. People come here looking for information and other people come here to give information. Others lie somewhere in the middle. Why do you take offense to any of these?

My advice to you is to stop being an idiot. Please don't take offense to that. But just know that if you don't agree that you're an idiot, that's proof that you're an idiot, because you're not listening to me.

This is how you sound most of the time, just FYI.

 

[dvcochran]

Believe it or not, I'm trying to be nice.

You said he's clearly not one. However, I know he is very highly ranked.


You brought me up. You brought me into this.

The part where you decide you're the arbiter of Taekwondo, and that everyone should follow your advice. You're clearly smarter than everyone, and are being sooooo generous by sharing your wisdom with us.

Because for you, "talk" means, "you shut up and listen to everything I say."

See? This is exactly what I'm talking about.

1. Most of this is irrelevant to the discussion we're having.
2. You know you've got more experience in TKD than I do, and that business is not my strong suit (from another thread). This is just to pump yourself up and make yourself look smart so you can force-feed me some of your "advice".
3. I don't know the exact number. I haven't kept track. I'd wager high hundreds to low thousands that I've helped succeed.
4. Work record? Irrelevant. But since you asked, I've steadily been employed since I was 16. For the last several years, my average work day has been from 6:30 AM to 9:30 PM, plus a few hours on Saturdays. This might even be one area I have you beat. If not, then for the first time on this forum you'll have impressed me.

My advice to you is to stop being an idiot. Please don't take offense to that. But just know that if you don't agree that you're an idiot, that's proof that you're an idiot, because you're not listening to me.

This is how you sound most of the time, just FYI.

Fair enough.
If I am an idiot, I happy with my style of idiot. It has worked out very well for me.

Here is something for you the 'chew on'. If you work 15-16 hours a day 6 days/week at one job, that is a special kind of idiot. This is exactly why I included that in my question.
There would have to be some special exceptions to change my mind on that. Let's discuss.

 

[dvcochran]

I took it to mean they were replaced in KKW, especially in the context of him talking about KKW requirements.

My criticisms of the forms are not unique to the Taegeuks or Yudanja. At the time, my criticism was of the Palgwe forms. Now that I have more exposure to the Taegeuks and the differences in the ways those techniques are done, I can actually see a little bit of what some of you are saying regarding what those techniques could be. I still stand by my original opinion that for a form to directly teach practical application, the base version of the technique should be used as described in the form, and that the forms serve the purpose of building coordination more than teaching fighting skills. I also still prefer the Palgwe style.

However, my previous comment was a statement of fact, not opinion. It is a fact that the Kukkiwon requires the Taegeuks, and does not require the Palgwes. My own opinion on any of the forms is irrelevant to that fact.

I had to go back and reread this post to make sure I remembered it correctly

You are presenting a bit of a double standard are you not? On your side it is okay to stand by your opinion, but on my side I have committed the 7th sin of hell.
C'mon man.

But you admit you are seeing the forms differently. That is a very, very good thing. You will get there.

 

[skribs]

You are presenting a bit of a double standard are you not? On your side it is okay to stand by your opinion, but on my side I have committed the 7th sin of hell.

I have different standards for how facts and opinions should be presented. Technically that's a double standard, but I don't see a problem with having different standard for facts and opinions.

But you admit you are seeing the forms differently. That is a very, very good thing. You will get there.

This is what I'm talking about regarding your delusional narcissism. You and I have different opinions on the forms. But my opinion is "wrong" and yours is "right", and you're hoping that eventually I will be "right" by having your opinion. And if I don't share your opinion, I need to learn to listen. Because heaven forbid you learn to listen and change your mind to someone else's opinion.

Here is something for you the 'chew on'. If you work 15-16 hours a day 6 days/week at one job, that is a special kind of idiot. This is exactly why I included that in my question.

Ah, what a twist! You don't work as much as I do, so you find a way to twist that into you being better than me. Everything about you has to be how you're better than someone else, so you can talk down to them. You grab hold of any such advantage you can. That way when your "logic" fails, you can just point to how much better you are than them, so you must be right.

I work that much because I have two jobs. One I have a passion for, but doesn't pay the bills, and one that allows me to have a roof and food. The second job, I'd do for free. I would keep doing it even if I won the lottery.

 

[dvcochran]

This is what I'm talking about regarding your delusional narcissism. You and I have different opinions on the forms. But my opinion is "wrong" and yours is "right", and you're hoping that eventually I will be "right" by having your opinion. And if I don't share your opinion, I need to learn to listen. Because heaven forbid you learn to listen and change your mind to someone else's opinion.

It is not just my opinion, it is opinion of millions of others; including all the founding fathers of martial arts.
You are the one putting yourself in this David vs. Goliath position.

Ah, what a twist! You don't work as much as I do, so you find a way to twist that into you being better than me. Everything about you has to be how you're better than someone else, so you can talk down to them. You grab hold of any such advantage you can. That way when your "logic" fails, you can just point to how much better you are than them, so you must be right.

I work that much because I have two jobs. One I have a passion for, but doesn't pay the bills, and one that allows me to have a roof and food. The second job, I'd do for free. I would keep doing it even if I won the lottery.

Aw geesh; My wife and I own 5 businesses so yeah, I am pretty sure I 'work' more than you. But that is a pretty way to measure things isn't it?
I have gotten to where I am because I make my work do more for me than I do.

I am not better than anyone and have certainly never implied such. You did.
I am also not afraid to get into the fray with anyone, especially in regards to work. It is a big part of our success in the control world.

And yes, I do grab hold of any advantage. Why is that a bad thing?

I admire anyone who is willing to work hard. Even more so, I admire someone who works smart enough to not have to work hard. I imagine our scale on these two points are very different.

If you look at teaching MA's for free in the context of a for profit dojang as okay, I suspect this is where part of your dissatisfaction is coming.

Look, I want to be most everyone's ally. That does not mean everything will always be nice and pretty with a sweet little cherry on top.

 

[Dirty Dog]

What other arts have you trained?

Over the last 50+ years, I have trained to some extent in 10-12 different arts. I have Dan ranking in KKW, ITF, and MDK styles of TKD.
And you?

 

[jks9199]

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