Should Taekwondo be standardized?

[Andy Cap]

1. As far as poomsae is concerned, the creation of the Taegueks (the latest series of poomsae) was a unified effort with input from all the Kwans (in fact, that's why the Palgwe series was made "supplemental" is that the Jidokwan and Moo Duk Kwan did not participate). So unification through standardization is the trend, so to speak.

2. You are absolutely correct that not all of the early pioneers, notably Gen. Choi and GM Hwang Kee, did not fully participate in the unification process (I say "fully" because they were both instrumental in the process early on). They kept their respective "kwans" separate and globally even these groups have further splintered with the passing on their leaders. This is something which would not happen if there were standardization IMHO.

My original question was should Kukki-TKD be standardized? What do you think?

Miles

The other issue I have with standardization is that the art suffers in a creative aspect. The Tae Guk forms were created for military application and are horrid forms in terms of an artistic representation of martial arts.

Even in the standardization of the Kukkiwon I find many diffferent schools of thought. I have the CDs teh Kukkiwon sold back in 1992 with the Tae Guks and they have changed a lot on these forms since then.

So the new forms appear to be a work in progress rather than the classical forms that have stood the test of time.

Also under unification TKD would have to either go art or go sport. That was the issue so many years ago. Either way someone loses.

 

[terryl965]

How do you get around the age/time grade requirements you ask? Easy=you get a computer program, draft up your own certification-it is called a "Kinko-won" (no offense to Kinko's!)

If you are pro-standardization or anti-standardization, like everything else, it starts with one person either submitting to the standards or not....

Miles

BTW Terry, good luck for your students!!!

Thanks Miles the team did very well 21 gold 9 silver and 6 bronze not bad for a day of sparring and poomse.
Now on the other subject Kinko -won and knowing someone or for heavens bid I personaaly know a Grand Master that will get you what you want for the right price a gentleman with a little less than two years in has gone from white belt to 3rd dan for only $17,000 whatb a joke the guy knows nothing but sure does talk alot.

 

[TigerWoman]

Congrats to you and your team Terry, outstanding showing at the tournament. You know if they published the numbers of who has Kukkiwon certs and what level it would be easier to know. But now probably so many "grandmaster's" have slipped through that there would have to be an investigating department as well. But it wouldn't be hard for the legitimate people to put down the dates they tested, the school and testor etc. Truth is easy. TW

 

[terryl965]

Congrats to you and your team Terry, outstanding showing at the tournament. You know if they published the numbers of who has Kukkiwon certs and what level it would be easier to know. But now probably so many "grandmaster's" have slipped through that there would have to be an investigating department as well. But it wouldn't be hard for the legitimate people to put down the dates they tested, the school and testor etc. Truth is easy. TW

Yea the tournament was great for the compettitors, but you see about those imposters you can never ever change what they got through the cracks, once some org. accepts them it's all gravey from there. So many conterfieters out there you can buy a Kukkiwon cert. on e-bay with seal and all and nobody can dispute this. Standerization is all but forgotten this day's the idea is sound but the facts are nobody will give an inch either direction. Until the system evolves enough and the power to be here in America can put aside there ego's nobody win's.
America has to be in control and the Korean will never let that happen, for pete sake USA TKD had to go through a name change for all ther problems. I do not know how a Art turned sport base can ever survive on a machine that breeth life into a empty soul. In most cases intigrity has left the room and greed and ego's have filled the room. Until the greed factor leaves the flower will be in a jar with no room to grow, without growth ones wethers and dies until spring comes with a new sense of purpose. I know confusing but that is what makes this so appealing.

 

[TigerWoman]

Until the greed factor leaves the flower will be in a jar with no room to grow, without growth ones wethers and dies until spring comes with a new sense of purpose. I know confusing but that is what makes this so appealing.

I still don't see why the present certifications can't be checked with their numbers. Sure you can get a forgery off the internet, but the number on it should be able to be checked. But they don't post their members names and numbers. Or are their records that bad? I think the organizations's credibility demands that for standardization. By sending out questionaires, like the insurance company does as to testing dates who tested them etc. The legitimate people can hardly give up trying to straighten it out. Its like having a child, raising it and then just stand by and watch it founder and die. If there isn't any standardization of curriculum, stricter way of identifying imposters, then slowly, IMO, both the ITF and WTF will slowly disintegrate by slowly generation by generation becoming worse in standards. Imagine our tax system if there were no auditors?

And so the ITF and WTF are far apart, can't they write a program that slowly integrates them? Yeah I know, we need a mind zapper that zaps greed and ego out the powers that be. TW

 

[rmclain]

The other issue I have with standardization is that the art suffers in a creative aspect. The Tae Guk forms were created for military application and are horrid forms in terms of an artistic representation of martial arts.

That's funny. No, the Tae Guek forms were introduced as replacement forms for the Palgue forms in 1974. Had nothing to do with the military.

The Palgue forms were created and introduced in 1973.

The reason for the replacement after only 1 year is because a high ranking Korean Master (7th Dan at that time), was invited and attended the first clinics on the Palgue forms held in 1973. He returned back to America and wrote a book the first 3 Palgue forms and Ohara publications published it that same year. Some board members of the KTA were very jealous - thinking that the Korean Master was trying to get rich and thought the KTA should be first to publish.

So, they created the Tae Guek forms to replace the Palgue forms and introduced them in 1974. But already the Palgue forms were being spread throughout the world. Even at the same time, they made a new version of Koryo, because the Master above had introduced the original Koryo form in an interview in a U.S. Eastcoast Karate magazine in 1969.

R. McLain

 

[Andy Cap]

The other issue I have with standardization is that the art suffers in a creative aspect. The Tae Guk forms were created for military application and are horrid forms in terms of an artistic representation of martial arts.

That's funny. No, the Tae Guek forms were introduced as replacement forms for the Palgue forms in 1974. Had nothing to do with the military.

The Palgue forms were created and introduced in 1973.

The reason for the replacement after only 1 year is because a high ranking Korean Master (7th Dan at that time), was invited and attended the first clinics on the Palgue forms held in 1973. He returned back to America and wrote a book the first 3 Palgue forms and Ohara publications published it that same year. Some board members of the KTA were very jealous - thinking that the Korean Master was trying to get rich and thought the KTA should be first to publish.

So, they created the Tae Guek forms to replace the Palgue forms and introduced them in 1974. But already the Palgue forms were being spread throughout the world. Even at the same time, they made a new version of Koryo, because the Master above had introduced the original Koryo form in an interview in a U.S. Eastcoast Karate magazine in 1969.

R. McLain

Yeah that is one story. I have read articles to the same effect and read articles with other messages as well. In the end, as with most Korean mythology, we have to make some judgements of our own.

Now, note that every male must serve in the Korean military.

In 1972, an advanced training establishment was built, called Kukkiwon, now the Mecca of participants in sport Taekwondo. In May 1973, the first World Taekwondo championships were held at Kukkiwon in Seoul, with over 30 countries participating and as a result of the international success of this event, the World Taekwondo Federation(WTF) was formed with Dr Kim Un Yong being elected foundation president. The WTF replaced the KTA. Taekwondo, now one of the national sports of Korea, is included as part of the school curriculum at all levels and as a requisite for military training.

The first 4 Tae Guk poomse are marching forms, plain and simple. Walking stances were never used in Tae Kwon Do before this, or any other related martial art for that matter. So, you come to your own conclusions, but I am fairly comfortable in saying they were created for military training based on that information and what my instructor has told me.

 

[Miles]

I still don't see why the present certifications can't be checked with their numbers. Sure you can get a forgery off the internet, but the number on it should be able to be checked. But they don't post their members names and numbers. Or are their records that bad? I think the organizations's credibility demands that for standardization.

TW, I think the numbers can be checked-the Kukkiwon has a computer donated by Samsung which is huge. What it could/should do is post on the internet who is what rank, though that might cause problems with privacy.

Andy, thanks for the best wishes on my anniversary.

I agree with you to a certain extent that standardization has the potential to squelch creativity....

Miles

 

[Miles]

The first 4 Tae Guk poomse are marching forms, plain and simple. Walking stances were never used in Tae Kwon Do before this, or any other related martial art for that matter. So, you come to your own conclusions, but I am fairly comfortable in saying they were created for military training based on that information and what my instructor has told me.

Somewhat off-topic, but Walking stances have been in Taekwondo since the beginning. And, they are found in Okinawan Karate-do, from which Taekwondo draws much of its basics. For references, I would suggest reviewing Funikoshi, Gichin's "Karate Jutsu-The Original Teachings of Master Funikoshi (book with lots of pictures showing him in walking stance), or Nagamine, Shoshin "The Essence of Okinawan Karate-do" (book) and "Uchinadi-The Original Karate of Okinawa"(video by Toshihiro Oshiro whose rendition of kata is done nearly identical to how we were taught at Kukkiwon).

It would not surprise me if they were used for military training-they have a martial application differing from front stance.

Miles

 

[Andy Cap]

I am sure the walking stance is used in Japanese styles. It probably even existed in korean styles, but I have never seen it in any other form systems pertaining to Tae Kwon Do or Tang Soo Do. So, it is reasonable to extract that the Tae Guk poomse used the walking stance as much as they did for some reason other than artistic heritage.

 

[MichiganTKD]

1. The Palgue forms were introduced by the KTA in 1967. The Taegeuk forms were introduced in the 1970's.

2. A friend of mine who teaches English in Korea has told me that the Taegeuk forms were created to quickly teach Tae Kwon Do to military personnel. As such, they are not complicated to learn. If walking stances were used in Tae Kwon Do prior to the Taegeuks, why do the Palgue forms not contain them?

3. As I understand, one of the reasons why our GM never switched over to the Taegeuks is for the reason stated above-they are simplistic and not difficult to learn. As such, they do not perform one of the prime functions of forms-strengthening the body.

 

[TigerWoman]

3. As I understand, one of the reasons why our GM never switched over to the Taegeuks is for the reason stated above-they are simplistic and not difficult to learn. As such, they do not perform one of the prime functions of forms-strengthening the body.

Well, our instructor requires us to do the long stance low, wide and long, so that requires quad strengthening, upper body strengthening from punching, knife strikes, back fists, etc.and blocks, balance, focus, timing etc. Front kicks held, round and side kicks high, tucked in showing control after etc. Kicking from a back stance progressively to a front leg high front kick. So I respectfully disagree, that Taeguek forms "do not perform one of the prime functions of forms-strengthening the body." You do anything over and over it will strengthen something. And Taegueks slowly get harder. But, I have learned the ITF forms only to compare and they don't have the same mirror structure as the Taegueks. I have to "think" more with the ITF's as it changes more in technique and goes diagonal at times.

I would like to look at the Palgues again and see the differences. I thought they were just a another format but all the same techniques. Well, not the walking stance, I suppose, but the Taegueks only have those in the first three forms. The first three forms are simpler but I have noticed that new people learning them are challenged both physically and mentally enough. TW

 

[FearlessFreep]

From a beginner's point of view, don't underestimate the difficulty of turning 180 degrees into a perfect walking stance with balance and control. Not a complicated move as you go along, but doing it 'right' for a beginner is in itself a challange.

 

[47MartialMan]

From a beginner's point of view, don't underestimate the difficulty of turning 180 degrees into a perfect walking stance with balance and control. Not a complicated move as you go along, but doing it 'right' for a beginner is in itself a challange.

I have to agree, way back in the "days", these would be harsh esp, doing them in tension.

 

[Andy Cap]

From an "Old Timers" point of view, the terms "perfect" adn "walking stance" should never be used together. LOL

 

[Miles]

From an "Old Timers" point of view, the terms "perfect" adn "walking stance" should never be used together. LOL

Agreed! Not that I'm that old....

I don't recall in any of the Palgwe series the movement found in Taeguek 4 in which a kicking leg is returned to the original position-this is very difficult to do when kicking with power. It does wonders for balance.

Maybe there should be a new (or more likely "revived") thread on Palgwe vs Taeguek poomsae?

Miles

 

[MichiganTKD]

Granted, the Palgue forms do not have the "fancier" techniques contained in many of the ITF or the Taegeuk forms, but they are not designed to be. They are designed to allow you to strengthen your body and practice certain biomechanical actions. You can practice fancy techniques on your own.

Anyway, even within our organization there is variance among forms execution. No two Instructors teach forms the same way. Some teach different ways to execute, some teach different technique.

I prefer the Natural Selection method, whether it is in technique or for a martial art. If you allow variance, inevitably the technique or style that proves superior will win in the long run. If you standardize everything so that there is no room for variance, natural weaknesses will not be allowed to be bred out because it will accepted for that style.

For example, in our organization most students practice traditional technique. However, some students, especially the younger ones associated with the Tournament Team practice more sport style-long on speed, short on power. If we allowed only the sport version of technique to be taught, the organization would suffer or die because the ones who are not interested in competition, especially the non-athletes would suffer. If we taught only traditional technique, the younger students who are interested in tournaments would be denied this outlet. So, variance serves several purposes: it allows different aspects of Tae Kwon Do to express themselves and gives people a choice. It also allows for natural evolution of technique and art.

 

[Miles]

Granted, the Palgue forms do not have the "fancier" techniques contained in many of the ITF or the Taegeuk forms, but they are not designed to be. They are designed to allow you to strengthen your body and practice certain biomechanical actions. You can practice fancy techniques on your own..

MichiganTKD, as a point of reference for me, do you consider the technique sequence I described above as fancy? I personally don't feel it to be, but that is simply my opinion-I see it as a viable combination to use when space is limited.

Anyway, even within our organization there is variance among forms execution. No two Instructors teach forms the same way. Some teach different ways to execute, some teach different technique..

Since this is directly on-point in this thread,do you think it is good that a single organization allows variance in how poomsae is executed? Or taught (we can say standardization beyond mere execution of technique to include terminology, curriculum, how taught, applications, etc.)

I prefer the Natural Selection method, whether it is in technique or for a martial art. If you allow variance, inevitably the technique or style that proves superior will win in the long run. If you standardize everything so that there is no room for variance, natural weaknesses will not be allowed to be bred out because it will accepted for that style..

But, if you "standardize" the superior techniques, does that not make the stronger? And, by doing so, means that inferior techniques (or manners of executing techniques) are not practiced so less time is wasted?

So, variance serves several purposes: it allows different aspects of Tae Kwon Do to express themselves and gives people a choice. It also allows for natural evolution of technique and art.

So if I were conducting a poll, your vote would be not to standardize?

Thanks!

Miles

 

[MichiganTKD]

I think a little variance within forms is a good thing and will happen anyway. Part of it has to do with the biomechanics of each student. You surely can't expect a 6'2"-220lb. student to do form the same as a 5'4"-150 lb. student.

But variance will also occur for other reasons. For example, in Palgue Chil after the crescent kick-elbow there is/was a groin spear, followed by a grab. You are spearing and then squashing the testicles (sorry about the painful imagery!). I teach this technique because that is the way I learned it and I also like the technique. I think it is useful self defense. However, some Instructors because of when they learned the form, do not teach it. So there is variance in that aspect.
Also, some instructors, particularly higher ranking instructors, might have their own interpretation of how a technique should be executed based on what they think that technique is doing. Our GM apparently tolerates some variance in form execution AS LONG AS the overall dynamics of the form are kept intact. In other words, if you retain the balance, combination, stopping power, and accuracy of form, some variance is acceptable. To him, I think it also shows we are using our heads and thinking rather than just doing as we were taught. Evolution, if you will. Not making stuff up or inventing our own forms, but varying the interpretation.

Example: in Palgue Yook Jang, after the low knife hand block is a knife hand block/knife hand strike combination. I teach it in wide front stance, almost at a 45-degree angle. One of our instructors, who just promoted to 7th Dan BTW, teaches it with the right knee on the ground. It didn't make sense to me. However, if you look at it as a defense against a jumping/flying kick (blocking the kick and striking the groin) then it makes sense. So there might be more than one way to do it.

 

[Miles]

Thanks for your response.

I agree that the student's physical make-up has an impact on how he/she performs. When I do Keumgang it is not as impressive as when a bigger person does it-even if I might get it right.

Miles