discouraged by the TKD community

[skribs]

@dvcochran You know what? @jks9199 is right. I should just stop talking to you. You have a way of bringing out the absolute worst in people. An almost supernatural talent for it. I should just stop clicking on "view ignored content." I'll probably be happier that way.

 

[andyjeffries]

Nope you have done nothing to me and I bear you on I’ll will.

OK, that's fine then. You seemed to react vitriolically every time I posted, but as long as it's coming from the right place then that's fine (it may be just me reading emotions in to text that aren't present in your intentions, so I'll now just ignore that feeling and take your words at their face value).

It is frustrating and disappointing to someone who has been deeply involved in TKD as long as I have to hear such shallow answers and that they sound ‘okay’ to you, someone who is responsible for carrying the mantle. It reeks of a lack of depth in training.
So I will tell you what I have told Skribs many times. Get outside your current training walls. There is a great big TKD world out there. If you just drink the KKW koolaid you will miss it.

I think this may be where we differ. You feel I've stayed in my dojang or my group of friends and therefore have a limited viewpoint. I would argue that's not the case but that I have remained within Kukkiwon, which you feel is drinking the Koolaid.

In my country (UK) it's almost 50:50 split between ITF and Kukkiwon Taekwondo. There are very few true independents that don't follow either style, but are plotting their own course.

So for me it feels as strange you saying that I should do that to expand my horizons, as someone saying "there's this tiny group in this village that plays soccer (football) but with differences in rules, closer to the old original way from the 1800's - you should learn their way of playing it to expand your horizons". Almost everyone in the world plays by the same football rules (internationally almost all Taekwondo is Kukkiwon), but doing so is drinking the FIFA Koolaid and we should not be stuck doing the same thing.

That analogy is how crazy your viewpoint feels to me.

I am passionate and fully vested in TKD. I will always defend it. Degradation is something I see more and more every day it seem like.
If you feel I was aggressive so be it, but I assure you I was not. My apologies for any misunderstanding but my hope is to give you food for thought. To push you, and everyone else, to dive deeper.

This is where my analogy fits even closer for me. You're saying to dive deeper outside the official organisation for the sport/art, I feel that I've dived deeply in FIFA (Kukkiwon). I've been to Korea 8 times in the last decade, speak Korean to a conversational level and spoken with presidents of the organisations and 9th Dans with 20+ years in grade, I've spoken with current elite coaches and Kukkiwon official instructors, researchers of history. I've dived deeply within Kukkiwon Taekwondo, but don't feel the need to go outside of Kukkiwon as I'm not interested in the "other side of the aisle" (ITF Taekwon-do) and anyone outside of those two organisations feels like they're doing their own thing (and good for them, I hope they're happy but it doesn't interest me).

I was a very engrained in WT in my day, making it to the 2nd round of the Olympic trials (not games) in ‘88. I have a perfect state and regional record foe 3 years. We have over 200 AAU/WT golds at our schools. So I understand the feelings of using TKD as a sport. If that is your wheelhouse that is fine and well. But represent yourself as such; not as a TKD instructor, much less a Master (I do not know your rank).

I definitely don't feel my wheelhouse is the sport side and you are way more ingrained than I am in it. I always say that I support Kukkiwon and Changmookwan, WT never gets a mention from me. As far as I'm concerned, WT sets the sparring rules for one aspect of our training and runs competitions for athletes at a level neither I or my students will likely ever be at. They don't define the whole of what we do, Kukkiwon does that - and Kukkiwon defines enough of a system that I don't feel the need to go outside of it. Almost all of the Kwan founders joined KTA/Kukkiwon, all of the Kwans are still represented in it.

So I don't use Taekwondo as a sport and definitely would identify myself as a Taekwondo instructor and master (rather than "coach"). I'm happy for anyone to know my rank or qualifications, it's public on my dojang's website - I'm a Changmookwan 7th Dan, Kukkiwon 6th Dan, 2nd Class Kukkiwon Master Instructor and 3rd Class Kukkiwon Poom/Dan Examiner.

 

[Buka]

We should all chill more, especially because we put so much effort into our training. Tough racket, this Martial Arts thing.

When I get into an internet argument that I actually care about for some silly reason of my own, I tend to take a really hot bath and smoke a fatty. Seems to help.

 

[InfiniteLoop]

Over the last 50+ years, I have trained to some extent in 10-12 different arts. I have Dan ranking in KKW, ITF, and MDK styles of TKD.
And you?

That's the same art known as TaeKwonDo. What are the other 11?

I have done the cute little sport below and TaeKwonDo.

 

[dvcochran]

OK, that's fine then. You seemed to react vitriolically every time I posted, but as long as it's coming from the right place then that's fine (it may be just me reading emotions in to text that aren't present in your intentions, so I'll now just ignore that feeling and take your words at their face value).



I think this may be where we differ. You feel I've stayed in my dojang or my group of friends and therefore have a limited viewpoint. I would argue that's not the case but that I have remained within Kukkiwon, which you feel is drinking the Koolaid.

In my country (UK) it's almost 50:50 split between ITF and Kukkiwon Taekwondo. There are very few true independents that don't follow either style, but are plotting their own course.

So for me it feels as strange you saying that I should do that to expand my horizons, as someone saying "there's this tiny group in this village that plays soccer (football) but with differences in rules, closer to the old original way from the 1800's - you should learn their way of playing it to expand your horizons". Almost everyone in the world plays by the same football rules (internationally almost all Taekwondo is Kukkiwon), but doing so is drinking the FIFA Koolaid and we should not be stuck doing the same thing.

That analogy is how crazy your viewpoint feels to me.



This is where my analogy fits even closer for me. You're saying to dive deeper outside the official organisation for the sport/art, I feel that I've dived deeply in FIFA (Kukkiwon). I've been to Korea 8 times in the last decade, speak Korean to a conversational level and spoken with presidents of the organisations and 9th Dans with 20+ years in grade, I've spoken with current elite coaches and Kukkiwon official instructors, researchers of history. I've dived deeply within Kukkiwon Taekwondo, but don't feel the need to go outside of Kukkiwon as I'm not interested in the "other side of the aisle" (ITF Taekwon-do) and anyone outside of those two organisations feels like they're doing their own thing (and good for them, I hope they're happy but it doesn't interest me).



I definitely don't feel my wheelhouse is the sport side and you are way more ingrained than I am in it. I always say that I support Kukkiwon and Changmookwan, WT never gets a mention from me. As far as I'm concerned, WT sets the sparring rules for one aspect of our training and runs competitions for athletes at a level neither I or my students will likely ever be at. They don't define the whole of what we do, Kukkiwon does that - and Kukkiwon defines enough of a system that I don't feel the need to go outside of it. Almost all of the Kwan founders joi (ned KTA/Kukkiwon, all of the Kwans are still represented in it.

So I don't use Taekwondo as a sport and definitely would identify myself as a Taekwondo instructor and master (rather than "coach"). I'm happy for anyone to know my rank or qualifications, it's public on my dojang's website - I'm a Changmookwan 7th Dan, Kukkiwon 6th Dan, 2nd Class Kukkiwon Master Instructor and 3rd Class Kukkiwon Poom/Dan Examiner.

I cannot speak to the ITF/KKW ratio in the UK and accept your word on it. But this increases the weight of my statement' there is more out there'. And where does Changmookwan fit into your 50/50 equation? Especially if it is in your 'variant' category? Do you continue to train and teach Changmookwan curriculum? IF so, is any of this different from KKW 'curriculum'?

Who said anything about an 1800's style of anything? That is a strawman analogy you are trying to create.

I am not sure you have the breadth to accept this but it is not like any style of any system is doing anything explicitly new. Instead martial arts as a whole are slowly becoming an amalgamation of all past styles. Including, refining, and conforming techniques from all over. In this regard KKW/WT does a good job of holding it's own and staying unique. Not always good, correct, or applicable but unique. In this respect, they are the outlier.

The 'tiny group of villagers' you refer to is much larger than you think. And don't all styles do 'the same thing' in regards to their specific curriculum? The horizon I refer to is the MA horizon as a whole.
If a person feels compelled to stay ingratiated in one specific area and chase stars, stripes, belts, and certification in that one area that is all great and good. I get it. I have been there. But I eventually figured out that if a person is not very careful all this really accomplishes is feeding someone else purse. And another token on your wall.

It is great that you take your time and resources to travel to Korea. It is truly a gift not many people get to experience.
I am with Koreans literally everyday and have never felt compelled or pushed to learn the language beyond the technical terms in 38 years. So believe me when I say knowing how to speak Korean is not some blinding qualifier. Especially when you consider the gravity of your statement that a down block can be learned in a matter minutes.

Let's be honest and understand this is not specifically about you or me. It is instead about what we leave behind.

If your primary focus is as a KKW historian, all I can say it is not a very deep subject and already hard to follow in some areas. But if that is your wheelhouse, great.
If your school has nothing to do with WT what do you do for pressure testing? Naturally, there are other ways to accomplish this but I am not familiar with any of it in the (loosely defined) KKW curriculum. Hopefully you can expand on this.

To expand on the 'stars and stripes' subject;
I am 7th Dan MDK and was able to test under Gm Jae Kyu Chon before his passing. I doubt you understand the gravity of this honor. My direct GM is a direct student of Hwang Kee. I doubt you understand this either.
My 4th Dan KKW promotion was in 1994. I did not promote to 5th Dan until 2019; you can do the math on where I could be in terms of rank. This was a combination of my own personal choice and injuries. I have included my certificate numbers for both on MT before so they are readily available to anyone.
I am a 3rd class Master Instructor and Poom/Dan examiner. Both of these were somewhat pushed on me and I have no plans to continue beyond 2nd class MI. This is largely a money grab for people who have not been in a good program/curriculum.

I am BB under Tuhon Bill McGrath in Kali.
I am sashed in Kung Fu under Rusty Gray.
I am belted in Shotokan and have done a fair amount of training in several other styles.
I mentioned my WT history but will also include I had a pretty good PKA record.

I now understand you do not use TKD as a sport. So what is it you call what you do? Do you include what you do under the 'Martial Arts' moniker? If so how to do you reconcile the first word (Martial)? This is a very big question.

Again, please understand I am not trying to make enemies here. But I am trying to understand what you do.

 

[dvcochran]

@dvcochran You know what? @jks9199 is right. I should just stop talking to you. You have a way of bringing out the absolute worst in people. An almost supernatural talent for it. I should just stop clicking on "view ignored content." I'll probably be happier that way.

You may 'feel' happier. But you need to hear some of this stuff. Face it; we all do at times.

 

[WaterGal]

Eh That's what I'm asking.. You can't administer KKW certificates without Tageuk forms, right? . I'm guessing a Palgwae black belt holds no more merit than an ITF one.

As far as I know, Kukkiwon doesn't distinguish between a black belt earned by performing Taegeuk forms and one earned by performing Palgwe forms.

However, they have recently started requiring that all instructors who test their students for black belt and submit the results to KKW need to have passed the KKW foreign master course, and in order to pass that course, they need to be able to perform the Taegeuk forms.

I suppose, theoretically, you could pass the master course and still teach Palgwe forms to your students. KKW isn't going to send an inspector to your school to check.

 

[dvcochran]

As far as I know, Kukkiwon doesn't distinguish between a black belt earned by performing Taegeuk forms and one earned by performing Palgwe forms.

However, they have recently started requiring that all instructors who test their students for black belt and submit the results to KKW need to have passed the KKW foreign master course, and in order to pass that course, they need to be able to perform the Taegeuk forms.

I suppose, theoretically, you could pass the master course and still teach Palgwe forms to your students. KKW isn't going to send an inspector to your school to check.

It has been my experience that most TKD schools teach some other form set along with the Taegueks and Yudanja forms such as the Pinon (Pyong Ahn,) Palgwe, or even ITF sets.

 

[Dirty Dog]

That's the same art known as TaeKwonDo.

Once again, your very limited knowledge exposes itself. They are three different arts and although they do share some common roots, they most certainly are not the same.

What are the other 11?

Doesn't really matter.

I have done the cute little sport below and TaeKwonDo.

For what, a few months?

 

[andyjeffries]

I cannot speak to the ITF/KKW ratio in the UK and accept your word on it. But this increases the weight of my statement' there is more out there'. And where does Changmookwan fit into your 50/50 equation? Especially if it is in your 'variant' category? Do you continue to train and teach Changmookwan curriculum? IF so, is any of this different from KKW 'curriculum'?

Changmookwan (as per all of the other Kwans still HQ'd in South Korea) supports Kukkiwon curriculum 100%, no differences in technique or poomsae sets learnt/taught.

Who said anything about an 1800's style of anything? That is a strawman analogy you are trying to create.

It's an analogy, it's not perfect, but it fits my mindset and therefore may be useful in explaining where I'm coming from. I wasn't setting it up as a strawman argument.

I am not sure you have the breadth to accept this but it is not like any style of any system is doing anything explicitly new. Instead martial arts as a whole are slowly becoming an amalgamation of all past styles. Including, refining, and conforming techniques from all over. In this regard KKW/WT does a good job of holding it's own and staying unique. Not always good, correct, or applicable but unique. In this respect, they are the outlier.

True, but even they are moving towards BJJ/MMA style techniques in the latest self-defence syllabus.

The 'tiny group of villagers' you refer to is much larger than you think.

Again, I can only talk from my experience. That is the UK (where there is minimal non-ITF/TAGB and non-Kukkiwon), international courses run by Kukkiwon and visits to dojangs during vacations (but generally they're already people I know from courses or forums like this one).

And don't all styles do 'the same thing' in regards to their specific curriculum? The horizon I refer to is the MA horizon as a whole.
If a person feels compelled to stay ingratiated in one specific area and chase stars, stripes, belts, and certification in that one area that is all great and good. I get it. I have been there. But I eventually figured out that if a person is not very careful all this really accomplishes is feeding someone else purse. And another token on your wall.

I guess it depends what you're looking for.

It is great that you take your time and resources to travel to Korea. It is truly a gift not many people get to experience.

100%, I feel very lucky that I'm in a situation to be able to do so.

I am with Koreans literally everyday and have never felt compelled or pushed to learn the language beyond the technical terms in 38 years. So believe me when I say knowing how to speak Korean is not some blinding qualifier.

I never thought it was. You seemed to be claiming that I was sport based, I was giving my qualifications only from that point of view - to show that I am more Kukkiwon and Kwan focused than sport focused.

I learnt Korean because on the first Kukkiwon master course, it felt like the translations given during the lectures were abbreviated versions. I wanted the whole detail. So that's why I learnt Korean, so during conversations with Kwan presidents, Kukkiwon presidents and seniors in Kukkiwon Taekwondo I could converse in their language rather than requiring a translator that may miss some of the subtlety depend on words used.

Let's be honest and understand this is not specifically about you or me. It is instead about what we leave behind.

I absolutely agree with that, and think we have a similar viewpoint on that, that it's not about us - we just disagree on the best way to achieve that.

If your primary focus is as a KKW historian, all I can say it is not a very deep subject and already hard to follow in some areas. But if that is your wheelhouse, great.

It is. It's hard to follow which makes it fun.

If your school has nothing to do with WT what do you do for pressure testing? Naturally, there are other ways to accomplish this but I am not familiar with any of it in the (loosely defined) KKW curriculum. Hopefully you can expand on this.

Just to be clear, we do WT sparring rules as I previously said, but there are lots of dojangs that are VERY sparring based, whereas for our dojang it's maybe 20% of what we do. I was saying that I don't consider myself (identify as, to use current phraseology) a World Taekwondo Instructor, but a Kukkiwon/Changmookwan Instructor.

To expand on the 'stars and stripes' subject;
I am 7th Dan MDK and was able to test under Gm Jae Kyu Chon before his passing. I doubt you understand the gravity of this honor. My direct GM is a direct student of Hwang Kee. I doubt you understand this either.

I am unaware of your examiner, but I'm well aware of GM Hwang Kee (having learnt all about the Kwans). I don't understand why you'd think I wouldn't understand that?

Before I get in to the latter parts of this, my qualifications as I said above were to demonstrate that I'm Kukkiwon focused rather than WT (e.g. I didn't mention anything about WT coaching courses which I've never attended, and haven't stopped at relatively low rank which a lot of WT focused coaches do, because they don't see the point in higher rank). It wasn't intended as a genitalia measuring contest...

My 4th Dan KKW promotion was in 1994. I did not promote to 5th Dan until 2019; you can do the math on where I could be in terms of rank.

For anyone else interested, this means he could be Kukkiwon 8th Dan now.

This was a combination of my own personal choice and injuries. I have included my certificate numbers for both on MT before so they are readily available to anyone.
I am a 3rd class Master Instructor and Poom/Dan examiner. Both of these were somewhat pushed on me and I have no plans to continue beyond 2nd class MI. This is largely a money grab for people who have not been in a good program/curriculum.

Out of interest, why were they pushed on you and by whom?

Your experience of those course may be very different to mine (or similar to one of mine). When I have attended the master instructor course in Korea twice, it was awesome. It was relatively cheap to attend, full of great instructors and lots of detail/information that I hadn't had in such a concentrated form before, ensured I kept up to date with latest changes, awesome networking opportunity, etc.

When I attended the Examiner course in Austria though (where they sent a few instructors to teach the whole thing), it was less than positive. The course title gave it so much potential, but in reality it was a cut down master course with a lot of time spent having the rules read to us. My diary (it's online) of the course pretty much slates it.

So where did you take your courses? My prediction was you took them in America, meaning they're likely to be closer to the course I took in Austria (and hence I can understand your viewpoint much more), and I believe if you took them in Korea you'd have a different experience.

I am BB under Tuhon Bill McGrath in Kali.
I am sashed in Kung Fu under Rusty Gray.
I am belted in Shotokan and have done a fair amount of training in several other styles.
I mentioned my WT history but will also include I had a pretty good PKA record.

That's good, I'm sure it makes you very well rounded. Expanding those viewpoints to other arts is great. It's just not something that interest me.

I now understand you do not use TKD as a sport. So what is it you call what you do? Do you include what you do under the 'Martial Arts' moniker? If so how to do you reconcile the first word (Martial)? This is a very big question.

I would call it martial arts, however, we may disagree on what that means. For me, martial arts or more strictly "martial ways" (Mudo, 무도) means the journey of self-improvement via combat techniques. It isn't intended that you be able to kill a soldier on the battlefield, nor that it guarantees you success in an on-the-street engagement (improved chances, but not perfect defence) - it's about making you a better person, the world a better place, via training in specific techniques aimed with some amount of combat direction (regardless of how realistic they are).

So the way we train, the atmosphere we provide, and the syllabus we use all contribute to fulfilling that definition.

 

[dvcochran]

Changmookwan (as per all of the other Kwans still HQ'd in South Korea) supports Kukkiwon curriculum 100%, no differences in technique or poomsae sets learnt/taught.

Changmookwan does not have it's own form set or skill set? Just curious because I am not familiar with it outside historical purposes.

Again, I can only talk from my experience. That is the UK (where there is minimal non-ITF/TAGB and non-Kukkiwon), international courses run by Kukkiwon and visits to dojangs during vacations (but generally they're already people I know from courses or forums like this one).

It is very different in all the Americas and beyond. And, as you said, the Kwans are still practiced in Korea; even though more from a historical perspective.

I never thought it was. You seemed to be claiming that I was sport based, I was giving my qualifications only from that point of view - to show that I am more Kukkiwon and Kwan focused than sport focused.

I learnt Korean because on the first Kukkiwon master course, it felt like the translations given during the lectures were abbreviated versions. I wanted the whole detail. So that's why I learnt Korean, so during conversations with Kwan presidents, Kukkiwon presidents and seniors in Kukkiwon Taekwondo I could converse in their language rather than requiring a translator that may miss some of the subtlety depend on words used.

I simply asked the question for clarification. This clears up a lot.

It is. It's hard to follow which makes it fun.

Just to be clear, we do WT sparring rules as I previously said, but there are lots of dojangs that are VERY sparring based, whereas for our dojang it's maybe 20% of what we do. I was saying that I don't consider myself (identify as, to use current phraseology) a World Taekwondo Instructor, but a Kukkiwon/Changmookwan Instructor.

Yes, I am aware of the Full on WT gyms. There a many of them here but I would also call it uncommon here for someone to actively separate WT and KKW in their standard model.
Some of these gyms (like ours) also train the high level Poomsae and Hanmadang competitors. Where do these fall in your model?
In regular classes I would say we do about 25-30% sparring but there is other pressure testing throughout class such as one/two/three - steps which we do by working up to near full speed and at high pressure, finishing the technique to the ground or to the walk away. So we pad up much like sparring.
Outside regular classes we have sparring only (WT style) slots for our competitors.

I am unaware of your examiner, but I'm well aware of GM Hwang Kee (having learnt all about the Kwans). I don't understand why you'd think I wouldn't understand that?

Before I get in to the latter parts of this, my qualifications as I said above were to demonstrate that I'm Kukkiwon focused rather than WT (e.g. I didn't mention anything about WT coaching courses which I've never attended, and haven't stopped at relatively low rank which a lot of WT focused coaches do, because they don't see the point in higher rank). It wasn't intended as a genitalia measuring contest...

Fully agree. If your history passion follows the Kwans it should be easy for you to source GM Chon. Chon should not be much harder to follow than Kee, granted Kee has much more public history, and controversy.
I get that Jae Kyu Chon has no relevance to your own MA's path.

Out of interest, why were they pushed on you and by whom?

Your experience of those course may be very different to mine (or similar to one of mine). When I have attended the master instructor course in Korea twice, it was awesome. It was relatively cheap to attend, full of great instructors and lots of detail/information that I hadn't had in such a concentrated form before, ensured I kept up to date with latest changes, awesome networking opportunity, etc.

When I attended the Examiner course in Austria though (where they sent a few instructors to teach the whole thing), it was less than positive. The course title gave it so much potential, but in reality it was a cut down master course with a lot of time spent having the rules read to us. My diary (it's online) of the course pretty much slates it.

So where did you take your courses? My prediction was you took them in America, meaning they're likely to be closer to the course I took in Austria (and hence I can understand your viewpoint much more), and I believe if you took them in Korea you'd have a different experience.

This is an area where I get the sense we vary greatly because of our geographic locations. In the US, there is still a ton of direct lineage Korean instructors. People who interact with the Korean base and have as much, if not more influence in several areas of WT/KKW. This make the 'need' for extended courses like the Master course less important or needed. However, many of these instructors are getting rather long in the tooth. So my GM and others in my area actively 'push' certain instructors to take the courses.
From my experience, the courses have been much like what you describe. The material was detailed and well covered and there was little to no communication issues. The instructors could not have been any better. Overall great experiences but they are a intended to fulfill a course so like most others so they are naturally driven by agenda.
I think where this also differs is we have to deal with the Korean communication and social interaction 'struggles' every day so we may be more conditioned to it.
The courses are relatively low cost outside the travel and lost time away from other things, which is burden on me with everything we have going on.
If I can avoid them I have no desire to do the classes again since they are really incorporate nothing we are not already doing.

I would call it martial arts, however, we may disagree on what that means. For me, martial arts or more strictly "martial ways" (Mudo, 무도) means the journey of self-improvement via combat techniques. It isn't intended that you be able to kill a soldier on the battlefield, nor that it guarantees you success in an on-the-street engagement (improved chances, but not perfect defence) - it's about making you a better person, the world a better place, via training in specific techniques aimed with some amount of combat direction (regardless of how realistic they are).

So the way we train, the atmosphere we provide, and the syllabus we use all contribute to fulfilling that definition.

Yes, Mudo means self improvement Through combat techniques. As a historian I thought you may have already studied the more applied meaning of the word through Korea's combat history.
It is almost Zen in application, where a soldier is trained such that they can Only improve through good (glorious is the term they use) combat techniques. Much more is packed into this but that is the gist. This is the meaning of Martial Arts. We modify only to fit into modern society, not to water down the technique and especially not to change the application
In your latter description we are 100% on the same page. We strongly adhere to the trigram of body/mind/spirit philosophy. We tie the Spirit pillar very strongly to Christianity. In application, not as big a jump from Buddhism or Confucianism as you may think.
I do think it a slippery slop when one takes a snippet of the true meaning of something so that it fits their preferred agenda.

I am very glad we completed this discussion. It has been very satisfying and informative for me.
I appreciate you taking the time.

I also hope this is a productive model for others here on the forum.

Yours in the Martial Spirit,

David Cochran

 

[InfiniteLoop]

Once again, your very limited knowledge exposes itself. They are three different arts and although they do share some common roots, they most certainly are not the same.

I think a martial arts branch that accepts black belt transfers is the same martial art. Furthermore, your reference to 3 is completely arbitrary.

For what, a few months?

I boxed the ears off my fellow TKDoins for 4 years before finally joining a boxing gym for a few months + 3 years at home on and off. It's hard to quantify exactly how much it amounts to.

For what it's worth, people who have boxed hundreds of fights think I'm above journey man level and would pay to see me get in the ring. And that's both neutral and hateful observers. I have also been labelled the gold standard of Boxing in TaeKwonDo. As for my chin, I have been round kicked square in the jaw without a mouth piece. Didn't move. But it did feel like a dislocation of the jaw (it wasn't though).

I also got knocked down by a balcony when looking into the phone. Got up, dusted myself off, and went into a store when the security guard stopped me said that there's blood gushing out of my forehead and took a picture of me. He looked at me like as if I was an alien visiting with a bleeding forehead.

My friend who lived in the corner drove me to the hospital and told me a very comforting story about a man getting hit to the head by a golf ball and died a couple of minutes later

 

[andyjeffries]

I am very glad we completed this discussion. It has been very satisfying and informative for me.
I appreciate you taking the time.

I also hope this is a productive model for others here on the forum.

Yours in the Martial Spirit,

Just replying to this bit first, I absolutely agree!

Changmookwan does not have it's own form set or skill set? Just curious because I am not familiar with it outside historical purposes.

No, from my understanding all of the Kwans in Korea support the Kukkiwon syllabus 100%. I've spoken to seniors in Changmookwan, Chungdokwan and Ohdokwan and all of them do the Kukkiwon syllabus 100% and don't add in any other form set or skill set. I haven't specifically spoken to anyone from MDK about their official answer to this question, so if you say MDK officially requires other poomsae or techniques than Kukkiwon official ones, that's very interesting.

In fact most disturbing to me was when I had picked up a Dan certificate from Changmookwan during the day while in Korea and happened to go straight to a friend's dojang in the evening. I showed some of his students the certificate and none of them knew what the Kwans were. I had to explain the basics of Taekwondo history to them. They all just consider themselves Kukkiwon Taekwondoin.

It is very different in all the Americas and beyond. And, as you said, the Kwans are still practiced in Korea; even though more from a historical perspective.

I think people tend to still think there are Kwan differences, but if you go to Korea and speak to the current presidents they all seem to say that they support Kukkiwon syllabus 100%, do the techniques the exact same way and only exist as a familial society and dan ranking for members. That said, maybe MDK is different though.

Some of these gyms (like ours) also train the high level Poomsae and Hanmadang competitors. Where do these fall in your model?

We do modern sport poomsae training the same as we do some sparring using modern methods, but specific sport training for either aspect is not a main focus of ours. We don't currently do anything Hanmadang specifically, but our founder was a Hanmadang referee, so maybe one day we will (although he's passed away now).

In regular classes I would say we do about 25-30% sparring but there is other pressure testing throughout class such as one/two/three - steps which we do by working up to near full speed and at high pressure, finishing the technique to the ground or to the walk away. So we pad up much like sparring.
Outside regular classes we have sparring only (WT style) slots for our competitors.

Very interesting. We also do step sparring and self defence training (including grappling) as per current Kukkiwon syllabus. We don't wear pads though, that's a good thought.

Fully agree. If your history passion follows the Kwans it should be easy for you to source GM Chon. Chon should not be much harder to follow than Kee, granted Kee has much more public history, and controversy.
I get that Jae Kyu Chon has no relevance to your own MA's path.

Ahhh, OK, now I've found who he is. Former MDK president. That's cool. I like when I've Dan tested with people that mean something (to me personally or in the wider Taekwondo world) rather than just high ranking practitioners.

This is an area where I get the sense we vary greatly because of our geographic locations. In the US, there is still a ton of direct lineage Korean instructors. People who interact with the Korean base and have as much, if not more influence in several areas of WT/KKW.

That's the thing, I think a lot of the differences between the Kwans as practiced in America (and to a lesser, but still somewhat, extent internationally) is due to those early instructors that left Korea to teach abroad, but didn't keep up with the standardisation that happened in Korea. Some do, for sure, for example MDK's Secretary General was taking his 1st Class Master certificate when I did my 2nd Class, but it's my theory on why there are so many people that attend the Kukkiwon courses but are so far removed from current standards in technique.

This make the 'need' for extended courses like the Master course less important or needed. However, many of these instructors are getting rather long in the tooth. So my GM and others in my area actively 'push' certain instructors to take the courses.

Ahh fair enough, that makes a lot of sense.

From my experience, the courses have been much like what you describe. The material was detailed and well covered and there was little to no communication issues. The instructors could not have been any better. Overall great experiences but they are a intended to fulfill a course so like most others so they are naturally driven by agenda.
I think where this also differs is we have to deal with the Korean communication and social interaction 'struggles' every day so we may be more conditioned to it.

Hahaha, I know what you mean by struggles ;-)

Anyway, feels like we're much more on the same page and I'm glad we got to discuss these details and get to know each other a little more.

 

[J. Pickard]

Once again, your very limited knowledge exposes itself. They are three different arts and although they do share some common roots, they most certainly are not the same.

Doesn't really matter.

For what, a few months?

You're wasting your time with this guy. I keep seeing his posts pop up on various threads and his knowledge of...well pretty much everything he talks about is barely surface level at best. It's like trying to explain advanced English literature to a person with a 5 year old's grasp of the language.

 

[InfiniteLoop]

You're wasting your time with this guy. I keep seeing his posts pop up on various threads and his knowledge of...well pretty much everything he talks about is barely surface level at best. It's like trying to explain advanced English literature to a person with a 5 year old's grasp of the languag

The things I ask about are surface level, hence why I ask. This topic about switching styles isn't mine.

 

[dancingalone]

Changmookwan does not have it's own form set or skill set? Just curious because I am not familiar with it outside historical purposes.

There are several Chang Moo Kwan lineage practitioners here in the USA that continue to practice the older curriculum which included the Chuan Fa forms like Do Ju San, etc. They also do the usual karate lineage hyung like Bassae Dae and Chul Gi. Moreover, I understand that GM Nam Suk Lee had his own forms, whether of his creation or not, that he taught to his last American students.

I don't know much beyond that.

 

[dvcochran]

Just replying to this bit first, I absolutely agree!



No, from my understanding all of the Kwans in Korea support the Kukkiwon syllabus 100%. I've spoken to seniors in Changmookwan, Chungdokwan and Ohdokwan and all of them do the Kukkiwon syllabus 100% and don't add in any other form set or skill set. I haven't specifically spoken to anyone from MDK about their official answer to this question, so if you say MDK officially requires other poomsae or techniques than Kukkiwon official ones, that's very interesting.

In fact most disturbing to me was when I had picked up a Dan certificate from Changmookwan during the day while in Korea and happened to go straight to a friend's dojang in the evening. I showed some of his students the certificate and none of them knew what the Kwans were. I had to explain the basics of Taekwondo history to them. They all just consider themselves Kukkiwon Taekwondoin.



I think people tend to still think there are Kwan differences, but if you go to Korea and speak to the current presidents they all seem to say that they support Kukkiwon syllabus 100%, do the techniques the exact same way and only exist as a familial society and dan ranking for members. That said, maybe MDK is different though.



We do modern sport poomsae training the same as we do some sparring using modern methods, but specific sport training for either aspect is not a main focus of ours. We don't currently do anything Hanmadang specifically, but our founder was a Hanmadang referee, so maybe one day we will (although he's passed away now).



Very interesting. We also do step sparring and self defence training (including grappling) as per current Kukkiwon syllabus. We don't wear pads though, that's a good thought.



Ahhh, OK, now I've found who he is. Former MDK president. That's cool. I like when I've Dan tested with people that mean something (to me personally or in the wider Taekwondo world) rather than just high ranking practitioners.



That's the thing, I think a lot of the differences between the Kwans as practiced in America (and to a lesser, but still somewhat, extent internationally) is due to those early instructors that left Korea to teach abroad, but didn't keep up with the standardisation that happened in Korea. Some do, for sure, for example MDK's Secretary General was taking his 1st Class Master certificate when I did my 2nd Class, but it's my theory on why there are so many people that attend the Kukkiwon courses but are so far removed from current standards in technique.



Ahh fair enough, that makes a lot of sense.



Hahaha, I know what you mean by struggles ;-)

Anyway, feels like we're much more on the same page and I'm glad we got to discuss these details and get to know each other a little more.

A search reveals that there are forms specific to Changmookwan. Other people here have confirmed this.
If you do not follow another curriculum but only follow the KKW curriculum what does a person do to promote in CMK (you said 7th Dan)? That is rather confusing.
I have trained in many schools and other Kwan schools who all had their own curriculum and many of them also included the KKW curriculum as a Compliment, not a replacement.
MDK for example has a specific set of gup rank forms and BB forms and curriculum.

One of the main advantages in aligning with WT For tournaments.
KKW is the only entity claiming they are the only TKD. This is exactly what happened to TSD and to a lesser degree MDK.
That thinking it ripe for implosion.

 

[dvcochran]

There are several Chang Moo Kwan lineage practitioners here in the USA that continue to practice the older curriculum which included the Chuan Fa forms like Do Ju San, etc. They also do the usual karate lineage hyung like Bassae Dae and Chul Gi. Moreover, I understand that GM Nam Suk Lee had his own forms, whether of his creation or not, that he taught to his last American students.

I don't know much beyond that.

The Kwan schools I am been to all had their own form sets. The idea that they are somehow null and void because of KKW is just not correct.

 

[dvcochran]

After all the back and forth I had to go into my notes and research this:

Oh Do Kwan - Chon Ji forms
Chung Do Kwan - Pinon (Pyong-Ahn)
Moo Duk Kwan - Pinon (Pyong-Ahn) & Palgwe
Ji Do Kwan - Has their own Tae Guek forms (different spelling, different forms)
Chang Moo Kwan - Chaun-fa forms
Song Moo Kwan - Chung Bong Hyungs
Han Moo Kwan - Is from Choson Yun Moo Kwan Kwon Bop Bu so likely does Tae Guek forms but could not confirm.
Jung Do Kwan - Pinon (Pyong-Ahn) forms
Kang Du Won - Not certain but I believe does Chon Ji forms

Most have their own BB forms and most use the old form naming of Hyung's.

There is no argument that many schools also follow KKW in forms and WT in competition but only as a Compliment to, not a replacement of.
You just cannot magically erase the past.
I hope this clears a few things up for some folks.

 

[andyjeffries]

There are several Chang Moo Kwan lineage practitioners here in the USA that continue to practice the older curriculum which included the Chuan Fa forms like Do Ju San, etc. They also do the usual karate lineage hyung like Bassae Dae and Chul Gi. Moreover, I understand that GM Nam Suk Lee had his own forms, whether of his creation or not, that he taught to his last American students.

I don't know much beyond that.

I think this is right, they do older forms that are no longer official Changmookwan because they learnt them and want to keep them alive, even though Changmookwan in Korea follows Kukkiwon syllabus now and no longer practices them.