discouraged by the TKD community

[InfiniteLoop]

The principle isn't that you finish being an ITF practitioner on Day Zero and on Day One get your Kukkiwon certificate and then start to learn the syllabus, style, technical differences etc. The idea is that you get up to speed with those things, but then can transfer your current rank rather than starting again from "No Dan" and testing for 1st, even though you may have got a 5th Dan in ITF.

This isn't a paperwork for "assimilate my Dan", but more like "when recommending someone for Dan rank, you can assimilate their other Dan rank" - the key part is that you're recommending someone for the appropriate Dan level having tested them. So they should have performed a test for the rank they're assimilating in Kukkiwon style and have passed at the appropriate skill level any other candidate would have needed in Kukkiwon style.

So that's not just "be taught the Taegeuk forms in a matter of days" (as @Dirty Dog said), but actually knowing and performing the forms well enough to pass that 2nd Dan or higher Kukkiwon test.

Hope that helps

How long has it taken for Dan ranked ITF guys to assimilate Tageuk forms in your experience?

 

[InfiniteLoop]

So that's not just "be taught the Taegeuk forms in a matter of days" (as @Dirty Dog said),

@Dirty Dog says a lot of things. For better or worse.

 

[andyjeffries]

How long has it taken for Dan ranked ITF guys to assimilate Tageuk forms in your experience?

We've had a few crossover, I would say that they know the forms (Taegeuk and the black belt series up to their grade) in about a year, but it can take another year or two before they perform them really Kukkiwon style (difference between knowing what the moves are and then doing them correctly rather than ITF-style - from our point of view).

We had one cross over really well in a year dead, but we nicknamed her "Sponge" due to her ability to pick up a correction and fix it either during that session or before the next one.

We haven't had anyone higher than 2nd Dan cross over though, so I can't really speak to whether a 4th/5th Dan would take the same time, less or more... (less maybe because they're higher skilled and have more experience, more because they're more set in their ways and have to fight longer in muscle memory).

 

[MadMartigan]

We've had a few crossover, I would say that they know the forms (Taegeuk and the black belt series up to their grade) in about a year, but it can take another year or two before they perform them really Kukkiwon style (difference between knowing what the moves are and then doing them correctly rather than ITF-style - from our point of view).

For those who have a few more years in than I: Could the whole assimilation/belting across practice be more of a hold-over from back when the differences really weren't that pronounced? I would imagine back in the 60s and 70s there may have been more in common than what the 2 sides have since evolved to.

 

[InfiniteLoop]

For those who have a few more years in than I: Could the whole assimilation/belting across practice be more of a hold-over from back when the differences really weren't that pronounced? I would imagine back in the 60s and 70s there may have been more in common than what the 2 sides have since evolved to.

Outside of forms, training is more similiar today between them than in the 70s and 80s.

 

[andyjeffries]

For those who have a few more years in than I: Could the whole assimilation/belting across practice be more of a hold-over from back when the differences really weren't that pronounced? I would imagine back in the 60s and 70s there may have been more in common than what the 2 sides have since evolved to.

Quite possibly, but I also think it's the nature of Taekwondo in South Korea. All the Kwans unified to form KTA/Kukkiwon Taekwondo, only General Choi split off with his ITF (even thought the Kwan he founded is still in KTA and supports Kukkiwon in South Korea). So Kukkiwon has a very inclusive viewpoint and effectively leaves the door always open - if you want to join us, you're part of the Taekwondo family and you're welcome.

I think it's fair to say in the 60s/70s the differences were probably less than they are now though.

 

[InfiniteLoop]

I think it's fair to say in the 60s/70s the differences were probably less than they are now though.

I disagree. The ITF borrows sparring techniques from WTF in the 90s. This type of cross pollination did not exist in the 70s and 80s and may well be due to cross-over training. My particular school with an old timer instructor (started 1966) rejects these techniques but it's very pervasive in the ITF.

I don't know the figure on black belts in both ITF and KKW but it's more common than people think, especially higher level athletes.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

It got even weirder from there. I waited until the following Saturday. I wanted to talk to some of my students about it. Two of them were police officers in the town the offending school was in.

On the following Saturday I went there, posters in hand. Four of my students stood outside, standing by, two of them the police officers, on duty. (They offered, I accepted.)

It looked like just before they were going to hold a class. I took off my shoes, walked across their floor and went up to the guy in charge. Asked him who put these posters up, who put one on my door and what did they think was going to happen by doing so.

He was completely perplexed. You can fake a lot of things, but it's difficult to fake being perplexed. I asked if these were posters from there. He said, yes, but they were only put up around there, six months earlier when they first opened up.

I asked him to please find out who put them up, that I would be back the following Saturday and allow them to apologize, no hard feelings, no harm, no foul.

Went back the following Saturday with the same guys. The place was closed down, their windows soaped up. It was very odd.

I got one potential theory. The guy you talked to may have been the head instructor (or even just an instructor), rather than the school owner. The school owner meanwhile, could have been realizing that it's tougher to keep a dojo afloat, and was trying to do that as one last marketing campaign to keep his dojo running. When he either realized it wasn't getting him more students, or he heard from this instructor that you found out, he gave up and ended his lease.

 

[Dirty Dog]

So that's not just "be taught the Taegeuk forms in a matter of days" (as @Dirty Dog said), but actually knowing and performing the forms well enough to pass that 2nd Dan or higher Kukkiwon test.

Hope that helps.

I did specify expert. Not competent. It took me a couple weeks, not working particularly hard, to learn the Taegeuks well enough for a KKW 7th Dan to pass me.
I've had students who decided to go KKW at the last minute. They've learned them well enough to pass in 1-2 months. Again, not pushing particularly hard.
If you want to pop over to the States for a week, I'll bet I can teach you the Palgwae forms in a matter of days.

 

[InfiniteLoop]

I did specify expert. Not competent. It took me a couple weeks, not working particularly hard, to learn the Taegeuks well enough for a KKW 7th Dan to pass me.

But you never adopted Sine Wave….ITF mechanics pre SW are obviously closer to the Tageuk forms than with SW.

 

[andyjeffries]

I did specify expert. Not competent. It took me a couple weeks, not working particularly hard, to learn the Taegeuks well enough for a KKW 7th Dan to pass me.
I've had students who decided to go KKW at the last minute. They've learned them well enough to pass in 1-2 months. Again, not pushing particularly hard.
If you want to pop over to the States for a week, I'll bet I can teach you the Palgwae forms in a matter of days.

Just to be clear, I wasn't criticising you, I agree, I could teach someone dedicated the whole Taegeuk series in a few days. But that wouldn't mean their technique would pass a grading (particularly at the higher Dan levels for assimilation).

Thanks for the offer, being honest I have zero interest in the Palgwae forms (as I'm a Kukkiwon and Changmookwan support, I see that poomsae series as deprecated and unofficial now) - but if I ever come over to your area of the States, I'd love to meet up.

 

[InfiniteLoop]

Palgwae forms are nice but dry as paint wall.

 

[dvcochran]

But you never adopted Sine Wave….ITF mechanics pre SW are obviously closer to the Tageuk forms than with SW.

What???

 

[dvcochran]

Just to be clear, I wasn't criticising you, I agree, I could teach someone dedicated the whole Taegeuk series in a few days. But that wouldn't mean their technique would pass a grading (particularly at the higher Dan levels for assimilation).

Thanks for the offer, being honest I have zero interest in the Palgwae forms (as I'm a Kukkiwon and Changmookwan support, I see that poomsae series as deprecated and unofficial now) - but if I ever come over to your area of the States, I'd love to meet up.

I have to say that is a response purely root in ignorance. The Palgwae's, and other form sets are what created the Taegueks, which let's be honest, are a form set designed for teaching children. There is no comparison in the depth of the two form sets. But I suspect that is just hocus pocus to you.

All this talk about teaching the whole form set in a couple of hours/days/weeks supports this assertion.
It truly hurts to see a TKD person so drinking the KKW Koolaid and being so rooted in the politics and bureaucracy to deign the pure history on which what you are holding so high was built on. Rant over.

We should never bash what we do not know.

 

[SahBumNimRush]

I have to say that is a response purely root in ignorance. The Palgwae's, and other form sets are what created the Taegueks, which let's be honest, are a form set designed for teaching children. There is no comparison in the depth of the two form sets. But I suspect that is just hocus pocus to you.

All this talk about teaching the whole form set in a couple of hours/days/weeks supports this assertion.
It truly hurts to see a TKD person so drinking the KKW Koolaid and being so rooted in the politics and bureaucracy to deign the pure history on which what you are holding so high was built on. Rant over.

We should never bash what we do not know.

Andy is a pretty open and genuine person, and I've found that he offers his expertise where he can. I doubt he meant any disrespect other than those formsets have zero interest to him. I mean, I don't have any interest in them either, not because they are worthless, but I would rather spend my time training other parts of the art.

 

[InfiniteLoop]

I have to say that is a response purely root in ignorance. The Palgwae's, and other form sets are what created the Taegueks, which let's be honest, are a form set designed for teaching children. There is no comparison in the depth of the two form sets. But I suspect that is just hocus pocus to you.

All this talk about teaching the whole form set in a couple of hours/days/weeks supports this assertion.
It truly hurts to see a TKD person so drinking the KKW Koolaid and being so rooted in the politics and bureaucracy to deign the pure history on which what you are holding so high was built on. Rant over.

We should never bash what we do not know.

The Palgwae forms have virtually no originality. It's just Shotokan with new move orders

 

[andyjeffries]

I have to say that is a response purely root in ignorance. The Palgwae's, and other form sets are what created the Taegueks, which let's be honest, are a form set designed for teaching children. There is no comparison in the depth of the two form sets. But I suspect that is just hocus pocus to you.

All this talk about teaching the whole form set in a couple of hours/days/weeks supports this assertion.
It truly hurts to see a TKD person so drinking the KKW Koolaid and being so rooted in the politics and bureaucracy to deign the pure history on which what you are holding so high was built on. Rant over.

We should never bash what we do not know.

I think you've read between the lines of what I said and added those 2's to come up with 5.

• I never said anything about the quality of the palgwae series, for all I know they may be vastly superior to Taegeuk poomsae - but to be explicit, I didn't claim anything about how good they are. For my last Dan thesis I examined the Taegeuk series against the Chang-hon series and Shotokan's kata, but I didn't look at Palgwae. I found that I like the progression of the Taegeuk series better than the other two (in terms of taking a beginner to Dan level), but again, I don't know the Palgwae series and I'm not planning on learning them, so I don't have any comments on their quality.
• I'm fairly confident a decent Dan grade Taekwondoin that is driven to learn them (and already knows most of the movements) could learn any coloured form series in a matter of days (lets say less than a week of full time training). Again, I never claimed you'd do them justice and be at standards (and explicitly said the opposite), but would have memorised the poomsae.
• "So drinking the KKW Koolaid", I don't get why you feel someone supporting the Kukkiwon and wanting to 100% be practicing their syllabus as just "drinking the Koolaid", that definitely feels derogatory. Again, I didn't claim that doing Kukkiwon standard Taekwondo is better than other styles, I've didn't said that it's bad if independents/old-schoolers want to keep these old patterns alive. I just explained that Kukkiwon sees them as deprecated (fact) and therefore I personally don't want to learn them.
• The point therefore about "response purely root in ignorance" is surely you reacting to something that wasn't there, and then for some reason claiming me to be ignorant. Wow, OK...

 

[andyjeffries]

rooted in the politics and bureaucracy to deign the pure history on which what you are holding so high was built on.

I forgot to reply to this point, but I don't follow what you mean. It seems like you're saying that modern Taekwondo was "built on" the Palgwae series (as that's the only part you misunderstood me as deigning)?

As I understand it the Palgwae series were completed in 1967 and completely replaced (not built upon) in 1972 by the Taegeuk series. So from 1955 (taking the naming day of Taekwondo as the starting point) to 1967 and 1972 to 2021, it means we've had 61 years of not doing Palgwae poomsae (officially) vs 5 years of some* practitioners using them.

Even ignoring the time spent, given that I think everyone acknowledges that the Taegeuk are a new series and not at all based on the Palgwae series, I don't understand how you got to being the "pure history on which what you are holding so high was built on"?

Maybe you could explain what you meant by that sentence?

* My understanding from talking with senior Taekwondoin (e.g. my Kwan president) and history researchers in Korea is that the Palgwae poomsae weren't entirely accepted and practiced by all dojang in Korea, hence their wholesale replacement. I had those conversations, because if those people told me I should still learn them, I'd likely have done so.

 

[InfiniteLoop]

• I examined the Taegeuk series against the Chang-hon series and Shotokan's kata, but I didn't look at Palgwae.

I did. Palgwae forms were the best TaeKwonDo patterns IMO but the "Korean" influence is non existent, which is why the KKW parted with them.

 

[Dirty Dog]

But you never adopted Sine Wave….ITF mechanics pre SW are obviously closer to the Tageuk forms than with SW.

Like that matters. I don't practice sine wave. That's a long way from saying I can't do the forms with sine wave.