discouraged by the TKD community

[Dirty Dog]

Kukkiwon has had some initiatives to allow people to test for rank transfer from ITF and ATA. I'm not sure if they're still doing that, but they were for a while. But if your certificate is from an unaffiliated school, yeah, you're SOL and have to start at KKW 1st dan.

I think this is very much a grey area. I don't think the KKW has ever had a formal policy about transferring rank from other organization. But I do know we've had several high ranked KKW posters here who had stated that it was common practice to grant equivalent rank to Dan holders from other TKD styles. If memory serves, the person was expected to agree to teach the KKW curriculum from that time, but we all know that's completely unenforceable.

 

[skribs]

I think this is very much a grey area. I don't think the KKW has ever had a formal policy about transferring rank from other organization. But I do know we've had several high ranked KKW posters here who had stated that it was common practice to grant equivalent rank to Dan holders from other TKD styles. If memory serves, the person was expected to agree to teach the KKW curriculum from that time, but we all know that's completely unenforceable.

One thing that's frustrating is trying to navigate what is:

• What is something that happened in the past but has changed
• What is something that people can still get exceptions
• What is something that happened to someone's friend's acquaintances cousin that was misunderstood at some point before that someone told me what happened

 

[InfiniteLoop]

I think this is very much a grey area.

Especially in their brains. I visited a KKW instructors dojang, told him that I'm ITF affiliated, to which he replied: "isn't that Karate?"

Sigh...

 

[andyjeffries]

I think this is very much a grey area. I don't think the KKW has ever had a formal policy about transferring rank from other organization. But I do know we've had several high ranked KKW posters here who had stated that it was common practice to grant equivalent rank to Dan holders from other TKD styles. If memory serves, the person was expected to agree to teach the KKW curriculum from that time, but we all know that's completely unenforceable.

The Kukkiwon definitely used to have a formal policy about transferring rank from other organisations. It was Article 18 of the promotion regulations. I believe these are still current (if a little hard to find on their website) - "World Culture Taekwondo! Kukkiwon will make it"

Your memory is correct though - they assimilate at the same rank, should commit to teaching Kukkiwon and also, that it's a one time deal (i.e. you're switching over and isn't to be used every time you get a new higher Dan rank).

 

[andyjeffries]

One thing that's frustrating is trying to navigate what is:

• What is something that happened in the past but has changed
• What is something that people can still get exceptions
• What is something that happened to someone's friend's acquaintances cousin that was misunderstood at some point before that someone told me what happened

I can imagine.

The only thing I can say is that I'm happy to clear most points up for you as officially as I can. I'm a Kukkiwon licensed master instructor and examiner, and I'm anal about knowing correct details (apparently I'm borderline autistic). So I can make you a publicly stated promise - if you ask a question about Kukkiwon rules and practices, I'll answer if I'm 100% sure, preface with an opinion if I believe it's a certain way (but only if I'm strongly sure, but unable to 100% state it) and find out the answer for you if I don't know at all.

 

[skribs]

I'm anal about knowing correct details (apparently I'm borderline autistic).

No wonder I get along so well with you.

 

[Buka]

I think we’re all formed by our own, first hand personal experiences…..and how we interpret information we learn over the years.

One day, as a young black belt, driving home from the dojo, there was a big sign on the lawn of the fancy high school in the town one of our dojos was in. It sad “KARATE TOURNAMENT, Saturday.”

I’m thinking, “How do I not know about this!”

Psyched, me and a few of the fellas show up on Saturday ready to compete. But it was not a karate tournament, it was an AAU Tae-Kwon-Do tournament. Back then, at least where we were, the name Tae-Kwon-Do was not well known outside the Martial community. They were not looking for competitors, they were looking for spectators.

Three very tall Korean gentleman, with their grey slacks and blue AAU jackets on, made quite the impression on us. We couldn’t fight, we were not part of AAU Tae-Kwon-Do. When I asked why the sign said “Karate” they spoke to each other in Korean, laughed in our faces and glared at us. (They had pretty good stink eye, gotta give them that.) Then they laughed at us some more.

Then one of them said, “Go away, you are not wanted here.” He then made the shoo motion with his hand. And they laughed at us some more.

So we shooed. What else were we to do? But I never forgot it.

Fast forward a decade. The building our old dojo was in was purchased and we were given a two month notice to scram. We trained all over the place for a couple years, I had made a lot of friends in the Arts and they welcomed us with open arms. But eventually I had to open a place, so I did. All the old students came as well as a boatload of new ones. We were a very busy fighting gym.

We became important to the community and did everything to help them. A small greek restaurant opened in the town square. Three small tables and six stools at the counter. I stopped in and ate. Terrific food, really nice man running it. I spread the word, soon a lot of our guys were eating there. His place thrived as everyone spread the word.

So……one Saturday after class I cruise up to Nick’s restaurant. In his window is a large poster for a new Tae-Kwon-Do school in the next town. Nick says to me, “Your partners. I wanted to help, I’d do anything for you after all you've done for me.”

I said, “My partners?” He explained that he told two guys he couldn’t put up the poster because he was loyal to our school. They in turn told him that they were business partners of mine. He said, “Okay, great, let's put it right in the front window.”

He removed the poster. After I ate I cruised the town square. Found four more posters in the windows of places. They all told the same story, that the young men said they were business partners of mine.

After chatting for a while, I went back to my dojo to call this new school that was supposedly business partners of mine. As I get to my door I stop dead in my tracks. There on my door - our sign is completely covered by one of their posters. I must have missed them by mere minutes.

Let me ask you guys who teach or run a dojo - how would you respond to something like that?

 

[SahBumNimRush]

I think we’re all formed by our own, first hand personal experiences…..and how we interpret information we learn over the years.

One day, as a young black belt, driving home from the dojo, there was a big sign on the lawn of the fancy high school in the town one of our dojos was in. It sad “KARATE TOURNAMENT, Saturday.”

I’m thinking, “How do I not know about this!”

Psyched, me and a few of the fellas show up on Saturday ready to compete. But it was not a karate tournament, it was an AAU Tae-Kwon-Do tournament. Back then, at least where we were, the name Tae-Kwon-Do was not well known outside the Martial community. They were not looking for competitors, they were looking for spectators.

Three very tall Korean gentleman, with their grey slacks and blue AAU jackets on, made quite the impression on us. We couldn’t fight, we were not part of AAU Tae-Kwon-Do. When I asked why the sign said “Karate” they spoke to each other in Korean, laughed in our faces and glared at us. (They had pretty good stink eye, gotta give them that.) Then they laughed at us some more.

Then one of them said, “Go away, you are not wanted here.” He then made the shoo motion with his hand. And they laughed at us some more.

So we shooed. What else were we to do? But I never forgot it.

Fast forward a decade. The building our old dojo was in was purchased and we were given a two month notice to scram. We trained all over the place for a couple years, I had made a lot of friends in the Arts and they welcomed us with open arms. But eventually I had to open a place, so I did. All the old students came as well as a boatload of new ones. We were a very busy fighting gym.

We became important to the community and did everything to help them. A small greek restaurant opened in the town square. Three small tables and six stools at the counter. I stopped in and ate. Terrific food, really nice man running it. I spread the word, soon a lot of our guys were eating there. His place thrived as everyone spread the word.

So……one Saturday after class I cruise up to Nick’s restaurant. In his window is a large poster for a new Tae-Kwon-Do school in the next town. Nick says to me, “Your partners. I wanted to help, I’d do anything for you after all you've done for me.”

I said, “My partners?” He explained that he told two guys he couldn’t put up the poster because he was loyal to our school. They in turn told him that they were business partners of mine. He said, “Okay, great, let's put it right in the front window.”

He removed the poster. After I ate I cruised the town square. Found four more posters in the windows of places. They all told the same story, that the young men said they were business partners of mine.

After chatting for a while, I went back to my dojo to call this new school that was supposedly business partners of mine. As I get to my door I stop dead in my tracks. There on my door - our sign is completely covered by one of their posters. I must have missed them by mere minutes.

Let me ask you guys who teach or run a dojo - how would you respond to something like that?

Rumble? HAHA!

On a serious note, that is highly unprofessional.

 

[dvcochran]

I think we’re all formed by our own, first hand personal experiences…..and how we interpret information we learn over the years.

One day, as a young black belt, driving home from the dojo, there was a big sign on the lawn of the fancy high school in the town one of our dojos was in. It sad “KARATE TOURNAMENT, Saturday.”

I’m thinking, “How do I not know about this!”

Psyched, me and a few of the fellas show up on Saturday ready to compete. But it was not a karate tournament, it was an AAU Tae-Kwon-Do tournament. Back then, at least where we were, the name Tae-Kwon-Do was not well known outside the Martial community. They were not looking for competitors, they were looking for spectators.

Three very tall Korean gentleman, with their grey slacks and blue AAU jackets on, made quite the impression on us. We couldn’t fight, we were not part of AAU Tae-Kwon-Do. When I asked why the sign said “Karate” they spoke to each other in Korean, laughed in our faces and glared at us. (They had pretty good stink eye, gotta give them that.) Then they laughed at us some more.

Then one of them said, “Go away, you are not wanted here.” He then made the shoo motion with his hand. And they laughed at us some more.

So we shooed. What else were we to do? But I never forgot it.

Fast forward a decade. The building our old dojo was in was purchased and we were given a two month notice to scram. We trained all over the place for a couple years, I had made a lot of friends in the Arts and they welcomed us with open arms. But eventually I had to open a place, so I did. All the old students came as well as a boatload of new ones. We were a very busy fighting gym.

We became important to the community and did everything to help them. A small greek restaurant opened in the town square. Three small tables and six stools at the counter. I stopped in and ate. Terrific food, really nice man running it. I spread the word, soon a lot of our guys were eating there. His place thrived as everyone spread the word.

So……one Saturday after class I cruise up to Nick’s restaurant. In his window is a large poster for a new Tae-Kwon-Do school in the next town. Nick says to me, “Your partners. I wanted to help, I’d do anything for you after all you've done for me.”

I said, “My partners?” He explained that he told two guys he couldn’t put up the poster because he was loyal to our school. They in turn told him that they were business partners of mine. He said, “Okay, great, let's put it right in the front window.”

He removed the poster. After I ate I cruised the town square. Found four more posters in the windows of places. They all told the same story, that the young men said they were business partners of mine.

After chatting for a while, I went back to my dojo to call this new school that was supposedly business partners of mine. As I get to my door I stop dead in my tracks. There on my door - our sign is completely covered by one of their posters. I must have missed them by mere minutes.

Let me ask you guys who teach or run a dojo - how would you respond to something like that?

Face to face, but I would also leverage my community contacts. The phrase 'smear campaign' comes to mind.
IF, on the outside chance it was precocious student I could work it out with a good and decent instructor/school owner. But someone needed hell to pay.

Originally, our dojang was named Midstate Karate Studio because I was convinced no one knew what the heck Tae Kwon Do was in our area in 1986. Stayed that way for about 3 years.
My sincere apologies if this tainted your opinion of Tae Kwon Do.

We have done a ton of work with AAU. In total we are close to 100 Gold medals and over 1,000 medals total. Like every style, it is rules bound so you learn to work within the rules. From a competition perspective there is none better.
That said, there are bad eggs everywhere.
That said, it does sound like some of the pompous high ranking instructors I have worked with in my days.

 

[MadMartigan]

Let me ask you guys who teach or run a dojo - how would you respond to something like that?

Not sure about where you live, but in Canada that's a form of criminal fraud (False Pretence). Perhaps a quick phone call to let them know in no uncertain terms that if it happens again, you'd pursue charges.

 

[Buka]

Face to face. but I would also leverage my community contacts. The phrase 'smear campaign' comes to mind.
IF on the outside chance it was precocious student I could work it out with a good and decent instructor/school owner. But someone needed hell to pay.

It got even weirder from there. I waited until the following Saturday. I wanted to talk to some of my students about it. Two of them were police officers in the town the offending school was in.

On the following Saturday I went there, posters in hand. Four of my students stood outside, standing by, two of them the police officers, on duty. (They offered, I accepted.)

It looked like just before they were going to hold a class. I took off my shoes, walked across their floor and went up to the guy in charge. Asked him who put these posters up, who put one on my door and what did they think was going to happen by doing so.

He was completely perplexed. You can fake a lot of things, but it's difficult to fake being perplexed. I asked if these were posters from there. He said, yes, but they were only put up around there, six months earlier when they first opened up.

I asked him to please find out who put them up, that I would be back the following Saturday and allow them to apologize, no hard feelings, no harm, no foul.

Went back the following Saturday with the same guys. The place was closed down, their windows soaped up. It was very odd.

 

[Buka]

Not sure about where you live, but in Canada that's a form of criminal fraud (False Pretence). Perhaps a quick phone call to let them know in no uncertain terms that if it happens again, you'd pursue charges.

That would have been the smart thing to do. But nobody ever accused me of being smart.

Whenever a new dojo opened in a radius of five miles (other than Fred Villari) I would always stop by, gifting them a new heavy bag and a couple of kicking shields. Always told them if they needed anything to let me know. And invited them to come down anytime they liked. (I was a distributor and got everything wholesale)

Had I known that school had opened up, I would have done the same for them. And that would never have happened. It was just a really odd experience.

 

[Buka]

Rumble? HAHA!

On a serious note, that is highly unprofessional.

Rumble was my first thoughts on the subject. Maybe reenact Count Dante's Chicago Dojo wars of the sixties. Biggest problem with that - it went against everything I was trying to teach my students.
Sure would have been fun, though.

But those were my first two dealings with TKD, the AAU jerks and the poster incident.

I suffer from Italian Alzheimers. We forget everything except a grudge.

 

[MadMartigan]

That would have been the smart thing to do. But nobody ever accused me of being smart.

Not sure about that. The way you did handle it seemed to have worked out just fine haha.

 

[Buka]

Not sure about that. The way you did handle it seemed to have worked out just fine haha.

It did, yes. But I wish I knew what happened to that dojo. I hate to see dojos close. Even if I don't care for them.

 

[InfiniteLoop]

they assimilate at the same rank, should commit to teaching Kukkiwon and also, that it's a one time deal (i.e. you're switching over and isn't to be used every time you get a new higher Dan rank).

How does that make sense when a large part of teaching is forms that they never done?

 

[Dirty Dog]

How does that make sense when a large part of teaching is forms that they never done?

What makes you think they've never done those forms?
But even if they haven't, it's pretty easy to teach. Someone who is an expert in the Chang Hon forms could be taught the Taegeuk forms in a matter of days.

 

[InfiniteLoop]

What makes you think they've never done those forms?
But even if they haven't, it's pretty easy to teach. Someone who is an expert in the Chang Hon forms could be taught the Taegeuk forms in a matter of days.

The moves yes, but not the methodological difference to the level of an instructor. By methodology I mean the exact delivery of the technique.

 

[SahBumNimRush]

Rumble was my first thoughts on the subject. Maybe reenact Count Dante's Chicago Dojo wars of the sixties. Biggest problem with that - it went against everything I was trying to teach my students.
Sure would have been fun, though.

But those were my first two dealings with TKD, the AAU jerks and the poster incident.

I suffer from Italian Alzheimers. We forget everything except a grudge.

It was a knee jerk response (and completely in jest), but I 100% agree about it going against what you are trying to teach, morally/ethically.

I remember hearing stories in the early days of TSD/TKD, that there were many dojang "turf" wars in South Korea. I don't think things like that would work out well these days from a publicity and liability standpoint.

 

[andyjeffries]

How does that make sense when a large part of teaching is forms that they never done?

The principle isn't that you finish being an ITF practitioner on Day Zero and on Day One get your Kukkiwon certificate and then start to learn the syllabus, style, technical differences etc. The idea is that you get up to speed with those things, but then can transfer your current rank rather than starting again from "No Dan" and testing for 1st, even though you may have got a 5th Dan in ITF.

This isn't a paperwork for "assimilate my Dan", but more like "when recommending someone for Dan rank, you can assimilate their other Dan rank" - the key part is that you're recommending someone for the appropriate Dan level having tested them. So they should have performed a test for the rank they're assimilating in Kukkiwon style and have passed at the appropriate skill level any other candidate would have needed in Kukkiwon style.

So that's not just "be taught the Taegeuk forms in a matter of days" (as @Dirty Dog said), but actually knowing and performing the forms well enough to pass that 2nd Dan or higher Kukkiwon test.

Hope that helps.