discouraged by the TKD community

[SahBumNimRush]

I linked to a competitor in the traditional branch. I trained in a traditional branch. It is still wildly unrealistic sparring and 100% of the students have no concept of how vulnerable they are to getting punched in the face.

The freakin freeze shot is the Karateka
Punching a TKD champion with his hands completely down in a punching range. It's embarrassing how low their comprehension is for punching.

I understood it from the get go, for whatever reason... Maybe it's an IQ thing.. Who knows.

Yes, "a" traditional branch. ITF is a branch of TKD that developed AFTER my "branch." They don't practice the oldest formsets the Koreans practiced in the earliest days of Kong Soo Do/Tang Soo Do. The only reason, I wear the moniker of TKD is that my heritage supported the unification process for a time, adopted the name TKD, then dropped their support after the fall of the KTA.

As others have said, TKD is a widespread art, with many branches. Curriculums vary quite a bit, just as curriculums within Karate vary quite a bit. You won't see anyone in our dojang sparring with their guard down. We use hand techniques regularly in sparring.

I don't think anyone is arguing your experience, or really even the validity of your statements on the video you posted. Merely that not every TKD branch or school falls prey to these deficits in training or curriculum.

I have many friends in ITF schools. Some train in this manner, others do not. So even within the same "style" of TKD, things may vary quite a bit.

 

[SahBumNimRush]

And Kyokushin is useless without cross training

Now that's just a trolling statement.

 

[InfiniteLoop]

Now that's just a trolling statement.

If you spar close range with no face punching, guess what happens when you step into rules that allow it? You get smashed. As anybody would.

 

[InfiniteLoop]

Yes, "a" traditional branch. ITF is a branch of TKD that developed AFTER my "branch." They don't practice the oldest formsets the Koreans practiced in the earliest days of Kong Soo Do/Tang Soo Do. The only reason, I wear the moniker of TKD is that my heritage supported the unification process for a time, adopted the name TKD, then dropped their support after the fall of the KTA.

As others have said, TKD is a widespread art, with many branches. Curriculums vary quite a bit, just as curriculums within Karate vary quite a bit. You won't see anyone in our dojang sparring with their guard down. We use hand techniques regularly in sparring.

I don't think anyone is arguing your experience, or really even the validity of your statements on the video you posted. Merely that not every TKD branch or school falls prey to these deficits in training or curriculum.

I have many friends in ITF schools. Some train in this manner, others do not. So even within the same "style" of TKD, things may vary quite a bit.

ITF practices the oldest TKD forms, since the forms prior to Chang Hon were Shotokan and Kung Fu katas

 

[MadMartigan]

Gotta love it when someone's profile name describes every conversation you'll have with them. Around and around the argument goes, where it stops, nobody knows.

 

[InfiniteLoop]

Yes, "a" traditional branch. ITF is a branch of TKD that developed AFTER my "branch." They don't practice the oldest formsets the Koreans practiced in the earliest days of Kong Soo Do/Tang Soo Do. The only reason, I wear the moniker of TKD is that my heritage supported the unification process for a time, adopted the name TKD, then dropped their support after the fall of the KTA.

As others have said, TKD is a widespread art, with many branches. Curriculums vary quite a bit, just as curriculums within Karate vary quite a bit. You won't see anyone in our dojang sparring with their guard down. We use hand techniques regularly in sparring.

I don't think anyone is arguing your experience, or really even the validity of your statements on the video you posted. Merely that not every TKD branch or school falls prey to these deficits in training or curriculum.

I have many friends in ITF schools. Some train in this manner, others do not. So even within the same "style" of TKD, things may vary quite a bit.

I challenge you to produce footage of TKD sparring that does no include foot fencing

Yes, "a" traditional branch. ITF is a branch of TKD that developed AFTER my "branch." They don't practice the oldest formsets the Koreans practiced in the earliest days of Kong Soo Do/Tang Soo Do. The only reason, I wear the moniker of TKD is that my heritage supported the unification process for a time, adopted the name TKD, then dropped their support after the fall of the KTA.

As others have said, TKD is a widespread art, with many branches. Curriculums vary quite a bit, just as curriculums within Karate vary quite a bit. You won't see anyone in our dojang sparring with their guard down. We use hand techniques regularly in sparring.

I don't think anyone is arguing your experience, or really even the validity of your statements on the video you posted. Merely that not every TKD branch or school falls prey to these deficits in training or curriculum.

I have many friends in ITF schools. Some train in this manner, others do not. So even within the same "style" of TKD, things may vary quite a bit.

What they claim is irrelevant. You don't have knowledge of what they are talking to you about.

Yes, "a" traditional branch. ITF is a branch of TKD that developed AFTER my "branch." They don't practice the oldest formsets the Koreans practiced in the earliest days of Kong Soo Do/Tang Soo Do. The only reason, I wear the moniker of TKD is that my heritage supported the unification process for a time, adopted the name TKD, then dropped their support after the fall of the KTA.

As others have said, TKD is a widespread art, with many branches. Curriculums vary quite a bit, just as curriculums within Karate vary quite a bit. You won't see anyone in our dojang sparring with their guard down. We use hand techniques regularly in sparring.

I don't think anyone is arguing your experience, or really even the validity of your statements on the video you posted. Merely that not every TKD branch or school falls prey to these deficits in training or curriculum.

I have many friends in ITF schools. Some train in this manner, others do not. So even within the same "style" of TKD, things may vary quite a bit.

 

[SahBumNimRush]

ITF practices the oldest TKD forms, since the forms prior to Chang Hon were Shotokan and Kung Fu katas

I guess this is where we get in to semantics. One could argue that because the forms existed prior the name TKD, there are purely TSD/KSD forms. But, I practice MDK TKD, and we still perform those older forms. Would you say that I practice TKD, and only do karate katas? The forms I know come from a small handful of different karate sources, namely Shudokan and Shotokan. There are some arguments for Goju/Wado in there too. That said, I practice TKD, not Shudokan, not Shotokan, but what some call Korean Karate. I mean, Kong Soo Do translates into the way of the open hand, Tang Soo Do translates to the way of the Tang (or Chinese) hand.

Are you arguing that because the Koreans learned karate, and stylized it, as other teachers did in their own way in Japan and Okinawa, that anything they taught as TSD or KSD, cannot be TKD? I mean, that takes out quite a bit of curriculum, even in ITF circles. Not all TKD styles utilize methods taught in the Chang Hon forms (i.e. sine wave power generation).

 

[InfiniteLoop]

I guess this is where we get in to semantics. One could argue that because the forms existed prior the name TKD, there are purely TSD/KSD forms. But, I practice MDK TKD, and we still perform those older forms. Would you say that I practice TKD, and only do karate katas? The forms I know come from a small handful of different karate sources, namely Shudokan and Shotokan. There are some arguments for Goju/Wado in there too. That said, I practice TKD, not Shudokan, not Shotokan, but what some call Korean Karate. I mean, Kong Soo Do translates into the way of the open hand, Tang Soo Do translates to the way of the Tang (or Chinese) hand.

Are you arguing that because the Koreans learned karate, and stylized it, as other teachers did in their own way in Japan and Okinawa, that anything they taught as TSD or KSD, cannot be TKD? I mean, that takes out quite a bit of curriculum, even in ITF circles. Not all TKD styles utilize methods taught in the Chang Hon forms (i.e. sine wave power generation).

Depends on your stance parameters. If it's low Shotokan stances, then I would argue that you are training both Karate and TaeKwonDo, since not all of your techniques are Koreanized.

If you train with TKD stance parameters, then I would say it's TKD with karate kata sequences.

 

[SahBumNimRush]

I challenge you to produce footage of TKD sparring that does no include foot fencing

Competitive sparring under TKD rulesets encourages long range techniques. But that's different than "foot fencing." I'm far from the best fighter, but I'm fine with putting myself out there. Here's some footage of me sparring starting around 4:30 mark. It's under traditional TKD 3 point sparring rules.

What they claim is irrelevant. You don't have knowledge of what they are talking to you about.

I'm not even sure what you're saying here.

 

[InfiniteLoop]

I'm not even sure what you're saying here.

He has zero training time in TaeKwonDo.

 

[InfiniteLoop]

Competitive sparring under TKD rulesets encourages long range techniques. But that's different than "foot fencing." I'm far from the best fighter, but I'm fine with putting myself out there. Here's some footage of me sparring starting around 4:30 mark. It's under traditional TKD 3 point sparring rules.

I'm not even sure what you're saying here.

I have trained ITF for 7 years and I don’t recall any 3 point sparring rules....

 

[SahBumNimRush]

I have trained ITF for 7 years and I don’t recall any 3 point sparring rules....

Once again, you are pigeon holing your definition of "traditional" with ITF. There were multiple ITF stylists that I sparred in that video, and I think you'll find many who have competed within these rulesets. The majority of tournaments in the U.S. from the 60's through the 80's were 3 point style tournaments. Those styles that went with Olympic development offered continuous rules, while most of the traditionalists maintained the 3 point rules.

I have sparred under various rulesets, but the vast majority of my experience comes from 3 point matches.

 

[InfiniteLoop]

Once again, you are pigeon holing your definition of "traditional" with ITF. There were multiple ITF stylists that I sparred in that video, and I think you'll find many who have competed within these rulesets. The majority of tournaments in the U.S. from the 60's through the 80's were 3 point style tournaments. Those styles that went with Olympic development offered continuous rules, while most of the traditionalists maintained the 3 point rules.

I have sparred under various rulesets, but the vast majority of my experience comes from 3 point matches.

Never heard of it. What is it exactly.

 

[InfiniteLoop]

Once again, you are pigeon holing your definition of "traditional" with ITF. There were multiple ITF stylists that I sparred in that video, and I think you'll find many who have competed within these rulesets. The majority of tournaments in the U.S. from the 60's through the 80's were 3 point style tournaments. Those styles that went with Olympic development offered continuous rules, while most of the traditionalists maintained the 3 point rules.

I have sparred under various rulesets, but the vast majority of my experience comes from 3 point matches.

I would call that Open Style point Karate, not TKD.

This is a 3 point competition?

 

[SahBumNimRush]

I would call that Open Style point Karate, not TKD.

Many of the greatest TKD Pioneers in the U.S. hosted tournaments under these rules. Many of their names still grace the names of tournaments that continue to use the rules today. The late S. Henry Cho, the late Ki Whang Kim, Il Joo Kim, Kyong Won Ahn, the late Joon Pyo Choi, who co-founded the Arnold Classic, to name a few.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I would call that Open Style point Karate, not TKD.

The rule set used in a tournament does not define an art.

 

[Buka]

The rule set used in a tournament does not define an art.

That's as well said as anything this thread will have for countless pages.

 

[SahBumNimRush]

That's as well said as anything this thread will have for countless pages.

Fair enough. I'll leave it at that.

 

[J. Pickard]

Then why does the OP mention about going back to TaeKwonDos supposed combative origin?

When I say "origin" I am referring to the pre-unification roots of TKD (essentially karate) being trained and taught for practical combative purposes. It was taught to the Korean and US military in the late '50's early '60's for its effectiveness in combat. Taekwondo was not developed to be just a sport or an acrobatic exercise, it was developed by military men and people of the upper echelon in Korea's political scene to develop fighting ability and refined in combat during the korean war. That is what I mean by combative origin.

 

[_Simon_]

And Kyokushin is useless without cross training

Well. This in itself shows your mindset and perceptual framework. That's very unfortunate. Very black and white thinking huh... I suggest you reflect on your agenda, and engage in actual open discussion rather than making such blind limited statements. But up to you of course