Disadvantages of Kenpo?

[Ceicei]

Uuummmm.

Let's see....

If only the top 4 of each division/color can move up/be promoted at a time, what happens with a large group? They are held back just because they're not in the top 4 places?

Think about who likely will snap up those coveted spots. They will likely be the more aggressive, competitive type students. What will you do with students who are relatively shy? Timid students at lower ranks may not want to continue on because of the early sparring (months or years later with more training, under current system, they may have shed their timidness, welcome more challenge, and would turn out excellent martial artists in the future).

IMHO, I don't think competitions should be used strictly as a promotion process. It would possibly cause Kenpo to become more sport oriented. There are people that want to learn self defense and do not care for the competition (which requires comparing against others) and would rather be judged on their own merits and abilities.

What about physically challenged students?

- Ceicei

 

[Rob Broad]

Kenpo isn't really geared as a competition sport. Mind you we have lots of good competitors, but our art was not created for the the tournament scene. I have trained many people that will never compete in a tournamen, it is not their scene. They come to learn practical self defense, not tournament arts.

This is just my opinion but I do like the idea of more realistic attacks when defending but tournaments have nothing to do with ranks in the art of Kenpo.

 

[kenpo12]

I like what OFK is saying. I don't know that this type of tournament should be the one and only way but I definitely believe in the spirit of what he's suggestiing. It's much the way Judo works. I think the events in these tournaments could use some tweaking but I think OFK is on to something.

[

 

[Touch Of Death]

Tournaments are the biggest money racket. Good or bad this means only wealthier students will get promoted. Where I am, we don't event have public tournaments. How far should people have to travel to be promoted at any where near the rate a southern californian would, where there is a tournament about once a week. I can see how someone that lives in California might come up with this idea, but it ain't gonna happen in these parts.
Sean

 

[Ceicei]

I believe tournaments do have a place. It does give us a way of measuring our abilities and skills (both as students and instructors) as well as meeting other people. However, as a means to promotion, that's where I draw the line.

- Ceicei

 

[kenpo12]

I'm finding it funny that there is so much negativity toward this tournament thing. Lord forbit you have to test your skills against your peers out of the confines of your school. I think that there are many more factors towards being promoted than a tournament, but I also think completing is one of the best ways to show profiency. I think there would be alot fewer black belts and high ranking people if this was how you got promoted, or at least had a big part of being promoted. I think it would stop alot of the political stuff too. It would be put up or shut up. It will never happen but I do like the idea.

 

[Kenpomachine]

Don't count with me for this promotions with tournament results... Even though I have placed before in the top 5, I don't think it's a good idea.
Jujutsu has evolved to judo through this, and I won't like that same evolution for kenpo. As Parker said, you have to tailor dresses for everybody (this is an english-spanish-english translation, so it's only approximate).
As Ceicei and someothers have stated before, not everybody is competition oriented, or have a top health, or whatever. But besides, a tournament oriented martial arts turns into sport, centers in what makes you win (flashy techniques, no forbidden strikes, you name it), and forgets about efficiency in self defense. I've seen some of the techniques done in tournaments, some of them winning, and the coreography was there, but not the content.

And you don't need an attacker from outside your school to do SD techs full strengh. I now, because we work with contact, speed and power

This is another disadvantage of kenpo: it allows people to think by themselves where they want to go... And not two kenpoists seems to arrive to the same place. It'll be overcrowded. :rofl: :rofl:

 

[kenpo12]

Kenpomachine,

You make good points. I don't completely dissagree with you, but I also think tournaments are a good way, in a controlled enviroment, to help get over fears of pressure. I don't think there is any one end all solution, but I think it's funny that if you're not concerned with competing then why are you concerned about rank?

 

[Ceicei]

Originally posted by kenpo12
...but I think it's funny that if you're not concerned with competing then why are you concerned about rank?

People worry about rank, because rank tells them they are progressing and offers a reason for motivation. Without some "atta-boys" on the way, some may lose incentive and drop out. "Wow, I'm at this color level, look at how much I have learned!" As you already know, just simply knowing the material does not necessarily make a person skilled at doing the stuff.

It's like school, some people study to get grades, others study to gain knowledge and make it beneficial for themselves.

Having rank isn't a bad thing. However, I wish more people would study martial arts just for the pure joy of learning.

- Ceicei

 

[rmcrobertson]

I agree that it would be better in many ways, Matt 12, though I can confidently say that I would suck at it.

However, nothing--and I mean nothing--would stop the blather and the lying. Not even death in some arena...I swear, that night the ghosts would start up.

And one of our problems is that, given the present semi-mess, we'd be hard-pressed to ensure that the people doing the testing and the judging could be trusted...

 

[Seig]

Originally posted by kenpo12
I'm finding it funny that there is so much negativity toward this tournament thing. Lord forbit you have to test your skills against your peers out of the confines of your school. I think that there are many more factors towards being promoted than a tournament, but I also think completing is one of the best ways to show profiency. I think there would be alot fewer black belts and high ranking people if this was how you got promoted, or at least had a big part of being promoted. I think it would stop alot of the political stuff too. It would be put up or shut up. It will never happen but I do like the idea.

I do not mean to sound disrespectful and forgive me if I come across this way. This type of mentality tells me that some people have relatively little tournament exposure. Yes, proficiency can be shown for forms but it is then subjective to the judges, what if they are TKD judges? I had an ITF TKD black belt tell one of my yellow belts doing short 1 that he needed to hiss on each move. That black belt and I had a discussion, at first polite and then less than polite when he told me he was right and I was wrong. He had no idea what Kenpo even was. It would do NOTHING to stop the political crap, it would make it ifinately worse. Tournaments are too damned political as it is. At the last tournament I fought in, I fought a 5th degree. In the first 30 seconds I was up 3 nothing, I lost the match. After the fight, he told me I got screwed. He and I both know I beat him, but because of the politics involved, I was not going to win. If any of you really believe that mandating promotions strictly on tournament results you are living in a fantasy world that will see the destruction of your schools.

 

[rmcrobertson]

Geez, Seig was actually ruder than I was in a post.

I loved the hissing bit.

Only thing I've run into that's anywhere near as funny in that category is that I found out, last spring from one of my students, that she went to a continuing education class (she's a Correctional Officer at ISP) that the martial artist who ran the class made them yell, "ki-ai!!" when they swung with the baton...

Alas, I agree. Our problem is like the old joke about finding the Brooklyn Post Office, to which you cannot get from here. Sorry, but considering the obvious phonies and egomaniacs and loons even I've met in only twelve years or so, the theory's great but the practice is hopeless.

And, it kinda reminds me of the great oldish line from "A Man For All Seasons:"
"Yourself, your students and God...not a bad audience, that."

 

[Seig]

I didn't mean to come across as rude. I think they tournament scene has become an absolute disgrace to the martial arts, it's why I quit competing on a regular basis 10 years ago. The final straw for me was at an event in Clearwater, FL. My then instructor pushed me into a tournament I was not even considering competeing in as I had 12 of my own students competing. When I say he pushed me into it, he literally threw gear at me and drug me to the ring. He then put me in against a fairly young black belt that nomatter what I didn't score on. The reason? He went to all the judges before the match and told them to award me no points for anything. His reasoning? He wanted me to quit competeing and strictly teach full time. This was immediatel following a tournament we had gone to in Jacksonville where the judges awarded me points that Ihad not earned and stole a match from someone they didn't like. In the past 10 years this has not gotten better, it has only gotten worse. Sparring in a tournament anymore is not about pitting yourself against someone else, it's about playing a game.

 

[rmcrobertson]

I liked the mildly rude, in this case.

I have very limited experience at tournaments, and I don't compete--my head's wrong for it. But the first one I went to, I saw a friend get robbed sparring because while she was breaking ribs, her opponent was tapping her on the top of the head a beat later...apparently judges don't look down below the eyebrows. Another tournament? Ridiculous forms--not different, not incomprehensible to me, not bad, not even gawdawful...ridiculous. Another? Ludicrous, posed (and slow! slower'n me!) "self-defense," routines in which, well, somebody "won," because of Who They Were. Another? Bob White having to stomp into the middle of a ring and tell two black belt competitors that if he saw ONE MORE example of disgraceful behaviour, he was calling off the rest of the tournament sparring. And always, loonbox parents, hyped up out of control children, swaggering nonsense passed off as tough, REAL martial arts, etc. etc., etc...


And the sad thing is, none of this is a shock to anybody, espeically not Seig.

Frankly, the remarkable thing at this point is all the GOOD stuff I've seen at tournaments--remarkable, because as far as I can see in my limited experience the system is mostly corrupt and permanently ruined.

And, alas, I guarante it's not just kenpo. ESPN tells me that.

It'd be nice if we could go with the suggestions. But, no. And for similar reasons, I would NEVER join any national giverning body--because I pretty much know exactly what sorts of people would be running it.

 

[Dominic Jones]

I recently took 3 of my students up to an open tournament. They competed in the forms and the sparring. For two of them it was their first tournament. They had a great time, enjoying the spectacular kicks, Ninjitsu demonstrations etc. They were of course nervous before entering their events-but did good . They were all winners, in my book, for having the guts to perform in front of a crowd.

I entered the forms and sparring myself and felt the pressure as always (It was only my 5th competition in 14 years). I wanted to win but came 3rd and 4th in the Sparring and Forms respectively. My students enjoyed watching me and hopefully didnft spot all the mistakes I made

I think competitions are great for the following reasons:
Exposure to other martial art styles or different clubs of the same style.
Testing out our moves under pressure, stress conditions.
Motivating us to do better if we get beat. Or motivating us to continue to win.
Meet interesting people who also have a love for the martial arts.
Give us a clear goal to work for.
Etc. Etc.

Deep down we know that competitions are not combat but they can be good fun. If we see decisions that we feel are incorrect, then we just have to be even better next time (Remember, it always helps if you position your opponent so that the Judges can see your techniques )

Itfs easy to complain or make excuses. If you see problems; why not make constructive criticism to the tournament organizers so that they can be fixed for next time OR organize a tournament for yourself (hard work but satisfying).

Tournaments can be equitable, well organized and enjoyable. If they are run by a team of people committed to running the best tournament they can.


Finally, my Ed Parkers American Kenpo Club is not interested in competing every weekend but once or twice a year. No problem.

I think that all blackbelts, instructors should compete. I understand that some are busy organising, judging etc. but for the rest of you...

Cheers Dom
:asian:

 

[Brother John]

Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka
Agreement on the best way to perform Star Block is only important when the judgement of proficiency is completely subjective.

If Kenpoists were evaluated based on competitive performance, the best way to do a star block would become self-evident.

Evident by whose standards? By what judge or group of judges?
It wouldn't work!

Listen to Seig!!! Evidently MUCH understanding and experience with the joke that is martial arts competition.
It would ruin it, completely. Those elements w/in Kenpo that are bad now (Mostly the political) would amplify quick and amplify HUGE!

Besides, look at even half-way decent tournament fighters.
I wouldn't want to train to move like that, to work like that.
It's tag, and bad tag at that. Who wants to train to be "proficient" at that? Kenpo would degenerate so very badly, it'd be sad indeed.

I see where you are coming from OFK....
but you've got to look a few moves ahead.

Your Brother
John

 

[cfr]

I only took Kenpo for 3 months. Ive also been in MA for only 2 yrs now. Im aware that because of this, my opinion doesnt count to alot of you and thats fine. In addition to that forgive me as Im sure some of this has already been covered. I tried to read all 10 pages of your replies, and I actually made it through the first 6. But I just couldnt do it any more. The problems I see with Kenpo are:

1; The emphasis on forms. Obviously this can be said for any traditional MA that uses them. As I see it, you are on 1 side of the fence or the other with this topic. I know that alot of you say it makes you a better fighter. Cool. Great. I wouldnt dispute that due to my lack of Kenpo experience. Opinion of course.

2; The close minded-ness. This could be argued of course that this is from the people in Kenpo and not the art itself. Lets take the ground fighting topic for example. Too many Kenpo people insist that they can apply their techs on the ground. No proof to back it up. But they just know they are right. Why? Because all the other Kenpo people are agreeing with you? My school doesnt do as much ground work as I would like to see. Not even close. Now I could claim that the concepts from my school would enable me to fight off the best bjj guy. But I find it more realisitc to say: "Yes my techs probably could be applied on the ground. I'd try them if I needed to. BUT I DONT KNOW. I DONT KNOW CAUSE I HAVENT TRIED IT. IM OPEN TO MY SYSTEM NOT BEING COMPLETE." Not just insist that Im right and that my system is perfect.

3; I know this has already been said. But since Im writing more in this post than I have all year, I will go for it. The over analyzation is lame. I dont want to be hanging out, intelectualizing, conceptualizing, and theorizing, when an average street fighter walks up and smacks me in the face. Try it. Dont talk about it. Now I know alot of you are saying "you just dont understand" and thats fine.

4; The complexity of techs. Im of the school of thought that techs should be simple. Not hard. Now I know that if I just practiced for 47 years those techs would be simple. But I want to learn to do what comes naturally without it taking the rest of my life.

Normally I dont participate too much around here. Especially not in the Kenpo forum. But this one was just too interesting to pass up. :rofl:

 

[Goldendragon7]

CFR, I'm glad that the string titillated you enough to post.... isn't that what forums are for...LOL.
Thanks for you post, you make some good points, (oh and, you don't need to apologize for being a relative beginner or for expressing your views ..... many others out there that have much more time than you are not quite so polite and seemingly have mastered the existence of life.. your comments are as welcomed as anyone's, whether anyone agrees or not, they are your thoughts) allow me to comment on a few from my point of view.

Originally posted by cfr
The problems I see with Kenpo are:
1; The emphasis on forms. This can be said for any traditional MA that uses them. As I see it, you are on 1 side of the fence or the other with this topic.

All good "systems" develop drills and exercises to be able to "pass on" their principles and findings. They may come in the shape of what some term "drills, roadwork, exercises, fundamentals, patterns, and any host of other names". The purpose is to teach coordination, conditioning, strategies, and many other factors that may be needed depending on what the particular "system ideals" are.

If one area or another seems to be over emphasized by an individual or organization.... that does not mean "everyone" trains the same way. I think this is a big misunderstanding here.

Originally posted by cfr
The problems I see with Kenpo are:
2A); The close minded-ness. This could be argued of course that this is from the people in Kenpo and not the art itself.

2B) Lets take the ground fighting topic for example. Too many Kenpo people insist that they can apply their techs on the ground. No proof to back it up.

But they just know they are right. Why? Because all the other Kenpo people are agreeing with you? My school doesn't do as much ground work as I would like to see. Not even close. Now I could claim that the concepts from my school would enable me to fight off the best bjj guy. But I find it more realistic to say: "Yes my techs probably could be applied on the ground. I'd try them if I needed to. BUT I DON'T KNOW. I DON'T KNOW CAUSE I HAVEN'T TRIED IT. IM OPEN TO MY SYSTEM NOT BEING COMPLETE." Not just insist that I'm right and that my system is perfect.

2A) Yes, I agree 100 percent!

2B) Due to the lack of written ground defenses within many organizations, and coupled with individual instruction that may not deal with the ground issues enough, don't think that there isn't material there and taught by others. It may not be common knowledge and may not wanted to be released on a medium such as a writing only forum.

I do agree with you however, the "believe me because I say so" is not a great comeback and is suspect at best. Proof may not be offered on the forum but an invitation to discuss in person may be much better.

Originally posted by cfr
The problems I see with Kenpo are:
3; The over analyzation is lame. I don't want to be hanging out, intellectualizing, conceptualizing, and theorizing, when an average street fighter walks up and smacks me in the face. Try it. Don't talk about it.

Analysis Paralysis! Yes, this can and is a huge problem for some that have never stepped in the ring or on the mat, other than as an instructor with willing students to prove their points.

Many discussing points here though, since we are miles and in some cases countries apart, the best we can do with this medium (forums) are "TALK" about our Art. So, with that in mind, realize where we are here. Sooooooo many times I wish I could say..... "hey... come over here so you can show me what you are talking about, I'm not sure I understand what you are saying" I know the reverse is true. What else can we do here that would better that?

I think we all really want to be effective in our execution of our material in the end, but as the saying goes... "feeling is believing".

Originally posted by cfr
The problems I see with Kenpo are:
4; The complexity of techs. I'm of the school of thought that techs should be simple. Not hard. Now I know that if I just practiced for 47 years those techs would be simple. But I want to learn to do what comes naturally without it taking the rest of my life.

I find that it depends a lot on the instruction that you receive. Some teach with methods that ARE very hard ..... yet others make the same thing seem easy through the teaching of the ideals and understandings of the material. Mr. Parker used to say; "anything that is complicated is constipated".

Originally posted by cfr
Normally I don't participate too much in the Kenpo forum.

Thanks for your comments and keep posting!
:asian:

 

[cfr]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7

Thanks for your comments and keep posting!
:asian:

Cool. Thanks for the welcome.

 

[pete]

Due to the lack of written ground defenses within many organizations, and coupled with individual instruction that may not deal with the ground issues enough, don't think that there isn't material there and taught by others. It may not be common knowledge and may not wanted to be released on a medium such as a writing only forum.

given the popularity of the topic, this seems like an 'opportunity' for someone with an actual Kenpo-based ground fighting training method to make a few bucks on the book, video, and seminar circuit... not to mention, do a real service to the art.