Kenpo Contact Manipulation

[Dark Kenpo Lord]

Doc, first off thanks! I was not looking to pass out "correct" answers just dribbling out my view as you know.
The control thing I think is mis-understood though because typically people believe that their has to be contact to have control. There are instances where by we can control an opponents actions through prepatory positions, baiting, feinting, and so forth. This is what I was talking about. Control is not always about contact, is it? Control begins before contact is made, or should begin before contact is made. Manipulation, can be obtained through phsycological and physical as well, however when calling it "contact manipulation it is blaitently(sp?) obvious that we have "contact".
Great Post and good reads.... Thanks.

:asian:

I've been teaching the control aspect of the four ranges for many years. A simple stance change to lead them in the right direction for your attack is the standard analogy I use to illustrate this concept. I think you're correct that most people think you need contact to have control, which definitely is not the case. BTW, it's blatently

Dark Lord

 

[Rainman]

Depends on the context control manipulation is used. Sub cat under contact manipulation it is control and containment with your locking, holding and everyones favorite ETC!

Control manipulation as a catch all by itself does have multiple meanings by definition in websters. It just depends where and how it is placed. No categories are ever complete because of overlap, placement and understanding. All change, expand and contract over time.

 

[Doc]

Doc, first off thanks! I was not looking to pass out "correct" answers just dribbling out my view as you know.
The control thing I think is mis-understood though because typically people believe that their has to be contact to have control. There are instances where by we can control an opponents actions through prepatory positions, baiting, feinting, and so forth. This is what I was talking about. Control is not always about contact, is it? Control begins before contact is made, or should begin before contact is made. Manipulation, can be obtained through phsycological and physical as well, however when calling it "contact manipulation it is blaitently(sp?) obvious that we have "contact".
Great Post and good reads.... Thanks.

incidently, Rainman has his own views and opinions, and is by no means as you know a puppet. Some things we agree on and some we don't. That's why we (I think I speak for both of us?) get along so well, because we both enjoy a good debate on occassion. The journey is long, no need to make it harder then it already is. :asian:

Well actually Todd you are correct, but like I said, I teach from a strict "Kenpo Curriculum" so we differ on the expression but not the intent. The "out of contact but still in control" aspect is addressed in one of the subcategories of distance 2. It is called "Spatial Distortion," and actually can physically misalign an attacker with no contact, thus controling as you stated. Subtle but effective and proven over and over again. Nice to hang out with "thinkers." Reminds me of the "old Man." He loved thinkers but they were rare.

 

[Doc]

I've been teaching the control aspect of the four ranges for many years. A simple stance change to lead them in the right direction for your attack is the standard analogy I use to illustrate this concept. I think you're correct that most people think you need contact to have control, which definitely is not the case. BTW, it's blatently

Dark Lord

:idunno:

 

[sumdumguy]

I've been teaching the control aspect of the four ranges for many years. A simple stance change to lead them in the right direction for your attack is the standard analogy I use to illustrate this concept. I think you're correct that most people think you need contact to have control, which definitely is not the case. BTW, it's blatently
Dark Lord

Hey Clyde, you don't know me and I remember you, don't think your fooling anybody here! Good for you, this was posted to enlighten other less knowledgable people not "Masters" such as yourself who know it all and have done it all..... I am not going to play the personal attack game here this forum is set up for EVERYBODY to discuss ideas concepts and theories. I choose to play nice (here). Happy Kenpoing....

Doc, Sir
Spatial Distortion is a topic all by itself. I think for now left off this forum until such time as people are ready and willing to accept the mere Idea of the concept. I try to steer clear of the really really good stuff for obvious reasons. Great Point though. Thank You. :asian:

KenpoMachine,
I am glad to have helped even if only in a small way. Every new room we walk into is dark until someone turns on the light.... Something like that.
:asian:

 

[Kenpomachine]

It is called "Spatial Distortion," and actually can physically misalign an attacker with no contact, thus controling as you stated

Spatial distortion as in the relativity theory? You've arisen my curiosity. Can you expend on this?

KenpoMachine,
I am glad to have helped even if only in a small way. Every new room we walk into is dark until someone turns on the light.... Something like that.
:asian:

I agree with that

 

[Doc]

Spatial distortion as in the relativity theory? You've arisen my curiosity. Can you expend on this?

SPATIAL DISTORTION - A concept that utilizes a fluctuation of anticipated time and space intersection in conjunction with the Line of Sight fluctuation on the visual cortex to disorientate and momentarily weaken and misalign your attacker. Although prevalent in all assaults, it is most obviously evident in torso-to-torso type assaults where the opponent attempts to use his body weight as the initial assault vehicle. When used in initiated striking assaults structural integrity is significantly impacted creating subtle and defensively effective Negative Body Posture.

:supcool: (I see the thief lurking)

 

[ob2c]

...I know there are some not posting (hiding in plain sight:supcool: ) but soaking up every word we say for "playback" at another time.

Right again. :ultracool
And enjoying it, especially the concept of catagorizing concepts as subsets of other concepts. Every once in a while the mud clears for me- good discussion.

 

[Kenpomachine]

SPATIAL DISTORTION - A concept that utilizes a fluctuation of anticipated time and space intersection in conjunction with the Line of Sight fluctuation on the visual cortex to disorientate and momentarily weaken and misalign your attacker. Although prevalent in all assaults, it is most obviously evident in torso-to-torso type assaults where the opponent attempts to use his body weight as the initial assault vehicle. When used in initiated striking assaults structural integrity is significantly impacted creating subtle and defensively effective Negative Body Posture.

:supcool: (I see the thief lurking)

Thanks for the information. I'm gonna go back and think over it, and try to digest it. Now they call it food for thought for something :lol:

 

[psi_radar]

Forgive me Doc, I've got a college education but for the life of me I couldn't visualize this, it's pretty codified.

SPATIAL DISTORTION - A concept that utilizes a fluctuation of anticipated time and space intersection in conjunction with the Line of Sight fluctuation on the visual cortex to disorientate and momentarily weaken and misalign your attacker. Although prevalent in all assaults, it is most obviously evident in torso-to-torso type assaults where the opponent attempts to use his body weight as the initial assault vehicle. When used in initiated striking assaults structural integrity is significantly impacted creating subtle and defensively effective Negative Body Posture.

The concept sounds like a methodology for performing a feint of some variety, but the definition alludes to a level of complexity I'm just missing. You say it's been proven time and again on a physical level--I'm intrigued and would like to hear an example in layman's terms.

thanks

 

[sumdumguy]

Forgive me Doc, I've got a college education but for the life of me I couldn't visualize this, it's pretty codified.



The concept sounds like a methodology for performing a feint of some variety, but the definition alludes to a level of complexity I'm just missing. You say it's been proven time and again on a physical level--I'm intrigued and would like to hear an example in layman's terms.

thanks

This really goes hand in hand with Isolation. The ability to move a limb or body part forward or toward an opponent with out telegraph. I.E. trunk rotation or motion. This relates to a smaller mass gaining distance on the target without perception of the opponent until it is too late. Our depth perception is the slowest of the three to compute. The brain can be trained but will always be harder to perceive actions of depth then hieght or width. You can do a simple experiment with a class mate with this. Face off with your opponent and test the theory.
:asian:

 

[kenpo2dabone]

In the UKF we use 8 stages of engagement not just 4. It is my understanding that Mr. Pick felt that the orginal four needed to be broken down further to be properly understood. In my opinion it is kind of like saying that all techniques have only one step. However we teach then in steps i.e Step 1- step back inward block step 2- right snap kicj to groin step 3- chop to the neck. Sometimes it is required of an instructor to break down those steps into smaller steps and so on. Here are the 8 stages of engagement that we use in the UKF. I will be happy to answer any questions regarding them, should anybody have some on monday when I et back from my trip. Anyway her they are.

1. Out of Your Personal Range of Controlled Engagement and In the Tactical Area of Response

Visual clarification of the stimuli is the process of the beginning of the conditioned response. Clarity of the opposing action and the recognition of danger begins this process. The assembly of resources, internal, external and universal activation, and the conscious commitment to unify energy. Natural response to the unfolding reality brings progress. Progress supports enlightenment. The embodiment of a natural way is reflective on one's ability to lose control, and the loss of that control reflects the lack of continuity with the laws of the universe. Co-joined energy manifests in the dynamic nature of peace and collection personifies the projection of this energy. Refusal of a negative human to enter your peaceful state is unyielding victory. Victory is multi-faceted.




2. In Your Personal Range of Controlled Contact
Up to and including your Four Rings. Physical observation is digested of the enemy. The nature of the attack is cataloged, and action unfolds. Decision is forthright on the course of action. If an attack is imminent, the detachment process is complete. Action to action; attack the attack. Commitment to the depth of attack, and life and death is platformed. Critical mass. In an atom, critical mass is achieved when several heavy particles are occupying the same space, therefore creating extraordinary chains of catastrophic events. Harmony permeates your vision, and penetrates your enemies dwelling.




3. Controlled Impact Penetration and Target Creation
Penetrating the dimension in which you are attacking. Dimensional steps in maneuvering to penetrate the center of the opponents mass is referred to as penetrating the spinal ring. When the spinal ring is penetrated, and the action completes its cycle, the understanding is that you have gone through your target, not to your target. Penetration of a human's spirit disables the will to resolve. Relentless pursuit and constant invasion in an expanding domination of the enemy's physical dimensions. Connected sequential attack. Synergistic engagement. Total and complete unification of the laws of the universe, unfolding and blooming. The sequence is natural and real. The mighty redwood begins as a seed from a single point, and the sequence and impulse to manifest destiny is underway.




4. Target Impact Manipulation
The resultant of impact penetration. Simply understood as if you hit someone, this is where they will be after you hit them. This continuous process maintains the attack in an unfolding sequential state of physical domination. Assessing the depth of a continuing attack. Impact penetration and impact manipulation are exchanged and connected. The physical destruction of your opponents will to continue. Breath and stamina are destroyed. Spirit wanes and fades, expanding and acting on one's energy.




5. Physical Body Control Manipulation
The contoured physical state of controlling your opponents actions by canceling all his dimensions. Common terms of wrestling and grappling are applicable. Locks and hugs. A constant physical attachment with your opponent, maneuvering to tactical advantage and to physically dominate. Energies are united and harmony with the universe has been established. Spirit domination is conjoined to one's control. The wind pushes the sail on course, charts are plotted and manifest. All control of your opponent has been dominated. And as the wind passes, the aftermath and the void of wind has energy as the sail bellows in anticipation.




6. Control Manipulation Maintenance
Physically controlled state of opponent domination as survey is made of the environment. The process of attachment and tactical arrangement of your four ring domination. Assessment of the conscious level of your enemy. Decision to inaugurate a new attack is determined. From survey of the physical plane, and survey of the enemy's state of life and the ability to retaliate an offensive attack. The course is set, the sail full and in control.




7. Control Manipulation Release
The physical release of your opponent in a tactical advantage for you, and canceling his ability to gain advantage on you. Capture your energy for complete control. Disengaging harmony from your opponent, remove the wind. Mission complete. Resolved. If no contact made, victory. If death is created, molecular change begins. Fill your sail and inhale as you exhale the bad wind, life.



8. Extraction
The physical maneuvers that places you in an expanded tactical area of response, and the maximum distance from danger without compromise, gaining physical visual control of your environment. Personal search of your body for injury. Attachment with your way, gathering back the loose lines, focus in on the journey as seen and lived. Expanding back in, conjoining destiny and circumstance, nothing personal is lost, acceptance of unfolding events and digestion of the resultant.

And just to throw something else out there, Think about how each of your weapons in there ranges passes throught these stages at different intervals in the techniques in relation to your attackers weapons\targets.

Enjoy and Salute,

Mike Miller UKF

 

[psi_radar]

Gentlemen,

First of all, thanks for the dialogue, it's been interesting and informative. However, I'm still feeling a bit lost.

"This really goes hand in hand with Isolation. The ability to move a limb or body part forward or toward an opponent with out telegraph. I.E. trunk rotation or motion. This relates to a smaller mass gaining distance on the target without perception of the opponent until it is too late. Our depth perception is the slowest of the three to compute. The brain can be trained but will always be harder to perceive actions of depth then hieght or width. You can do a simple experiment with a class mate with this. Face off with your opponent and test the theory. "

Can't this statement be simplified to:

If you throw a limb out in front of your opponent's face, the shock of the closeness of that object will make him/her believe that your core and centerline is within range of any arm or leg strike.

I'm sure it could be said more concisely but I had had some bad news today and I'm not much for copy editing.

In the process of trying to define what we DO in Kenpo, there's a tendency to overcomplicate the definitions of our actions. I think this is a subject for another thread which I will post shortly.

Kenpo2dabone, I'll speak to your response there as well.

thanks guys.
:asian:

 

[Rainman]

Gentlemen,

First of all, thanks for the dialogue, it's been interesting and informative. However, I'm still feeling a bit lost.

"This really goes hand in hand with Isolation. The ability to move a limb or body part forward or toward an opponent with out telegraph. I.E. trunk rotation or motion. This relates to a smaller mass gaining distance on the target without perception of the opponent until it is too late. Our depth perception is the slowest of the three to compute. The brain can be trained but will always be harder to perceive actions of depth then hieght or width. You can do a simple experiment with a class mate with this. Face off with your opponent and test the theory. "

Can't this statement be simplified to:

If you throw a limb out in front of your opponent's face, the shock of the closeness of that object will make him/her believe that your core and centerline is within range of any arm or leg strike.

:asian:

No. The hand is quicker than the eye. This is the point of isolation. It looks like you may be out of range but with the rotation of the trunk, which comes after the launch, you are indeed in contact penetration range thus moving you into contact manipulation. Isolation is the hand moving first with nothing else until the time is right to pivot and rotate close the percieved gap and hit the target. The point being it is easier to see and react to body movements then hand movements when they are isolated. You can relate this to a boxer who has an excellent jab such as Roy Jones Jr.

 

[Dark Kenpo Lord]

In the UKF we use 8 stages of engagement not just 4. It is my understanding that Mr. Pick felt that the orginal four needed to be broken down further to be properly understood. In my opinion it is kind of like saying that all techniques have only one step. However we teach then in steps i.e Step 1- step back inward block step 2- right snap kicj to groin step 3- chop to the neck. Sometimes it is required of an instructor to break down those steps into smaller steps and so on. Here are the 8 stages of engagement that we use in the UKF. I will be happy to answer any questions regarding them, should anybody have some on monday when I et back from my trip. Anyway her they are.

1. Out of Your Personal Range of Controlled Engagement and In the Tactical Area of Response

Visual clarification of the stimuli is the process of the beginning of the conditioned response. Clarity of the opposing action and the recognition of danger begins this process. The assembly of resources, internal, external and universal activation, and the conscious commitment to unify energy. Natural response to the unfolding reality brings progress. Progress supports enlightenment. The embodiment of a natural way is reflective on one's ability to lose control, and the loss of that control reflects the lack of continuity with the laws of the universe. Co-joined energy manifests in the dynamic nature of peace and collection personifies the projection of this energy. Refusal of a negative human to enter your peaceful state is unyielding victory. Victory is multi-faceted.




2. In Your Personal Range of Controlled Contact
Up to and including your Four Rings. Physical observation is digested of the enemy. The nature of the attack is cataloged, and action unfolds. Decision is forthright on the course of action. If an attack is imminent, the detachment process is complete. Action to action; attack the attack. Commitment to the depth of attack, and life and death is platformed. Critical mass. In an atom, critical mass is achieved when several heavy particles are occupying the same space, therefore creating extraordinary chains of catastrophic events. Harmony permeates your vision, and penetrates your enemies dwelling.




3. Controlled Impact Penetration and Target Creation
Penetrating the dimension in which you are attacking. Dimensional steps in maneuvering to penetrate the center of the opponents mass is referred to as penetrating the spinal ring. When the spinal ring is penetrated, and the action completes its cycle, the understanding is that you have gone through your target, not to your target. Penetration of a human's spirit disables the will to resolve. Relentless pursuit and constant invasion in an expanding domination of the enemy's physical dimensions. Connected sequential attack. Synergistic engagement. Total and complete unification of the laws of the universe, unfolding and blooming. The sequence is natural and real. The mighty redwood begins as a seed from a single point, and the sequence and impulse to manifest destiny is underway.




4. Target Impact Manipulation
The resultant of impact penetration. Simply understood as if you hit someone, this is where they will be after you hit them. This continuous process maintains the attack in an unfolding sequential state of physical domination. Assessing the depth of a continuing attack. Impact penetration and impact manipulation are exchanged and connected. The physical destruction of your opponents will to continue. Breath and stamina are destroyed. Spirit wanes and fades, expanding and acting on one's energy.




5. Physical Body Control Manipulation
The contoured physical state of controlling your opponents actions by canceling all his dimensions. Common terms of wrestling and grappling are applicable. Locks and hugs. A constant physical attachment with your opponent, maneuvering to tactical advantage and to physically dominate. Energies are united and harmony with the universe has been established. Spirit domination is conjoined to one's control. The wind pushes the sail on course, charts are plotted and manifest. All control of your opponent has been dominated. And as the wind passes, the aftermath and the void of wind has energy as the sail bellows in anticipation.




6. Control Manipulation Maintenance
Physically controlled state of opponent domination as survey is made of the environment. The process of attachment and tactical arrangement of your four ring domination. Assessment of the conscious level of your enemy. Decision to inaugurate a new attack is determined. From survey of the physical plane, and survey of the enemy's state of life and the ability to retaliate an offensive attack. The course is set, the sail full and in control.




7. Control Manipulation Release
The physical release of your opponent in a tactical advantage for you, and canceling his ability to gain advantage on you. Capture your energy for complete control. Disengaging harmony from your opponent, remove the wind. Mission complete. Resolved. If no contact made, victory. If death is created, molecular change begins. Fill your sail and inhale as you exhale the bad wind, life.



8. Extraction
The physical maneuvers that places you in an expanded tactical area of response, and the maximum distance from danger without compromise, gaining physical visual control of your environment. Personal search of your body for injury. Attachment with your way, gathering back the loose lines, focus in on the journey as seen and lived. Expanding back in, conjoining destiny and circumstance, nothing personal is lost, acceptance of unfolding events and digestion of the resultant.

And just to throw something else out there, Think about how each of your weapons in there ranges passes throught these stages at different intervals in the techniques in relation to your attackers weapons\targets.

Enjoy and Salute,

Mike Miller UKF

Seems you guys are overcomplicating something that doesn't need to be. All other stages are going to be sub-categories of the four, and they are clearly defined. I can't seem to get past all the mystical unfolding the universal secrets and sailing analogies without a bit of a chuckle either.

Dark Lord

 

[Kenpomachine]

Now, many thanks to all of you. Rainman, your example shed a bit more light to my understanding of spatial distorsion

 

[Doc]

Forgive me Doc, I've got a college education but for the life of me I couldn't visualize this, it's pretty codified.

Yes I understand. The knowledge is so specific and drawn from such a wide variety of human body, and non-human body related sciences, it can be a bit disconcerting until someone actually physically teaches you its application.

Even then rather than trying to "understand" it, it's best to know when and how to use it, and understand it much later. Ed Parker always said, "learn how first, understand later." Unfortunately many want to understand everything now, and speak of concepts and principles they can't put into practical application. Ed Parker called that "Hypothetical Kenpo." "If you do this then I'll do this." they say. Except one thing, "They can't do this." because they spend all their time talking about it instead of doing it.

I have several M.D.'s as students. I also have a couple of Dr's of Chiopractic Medicine, a Dr. of Physical Therapy and Sports Medicine, and a licensed Acupuncturist in our main location. None of them understand what I do, they only know it works and subscribe to the methodology, so no big deal.

You’re kind of on the right track in one of its applications. Its complexity or simplicity is predicated on the knowledge of the individual. Unfortunately, some “me too’s” (not you obviously) sit back, offer nothing, and chime in after others have had real dialog in an effort to increase their understanding. These "know-it-alls" would reduce everything they don’t understand to a level of simplicity commensurate with their own meager knowledge level, rather than accept there may be really significant information they don’t have a grasp of.

I believe Ed Parker Sr. called it “Full Cup Syndrome.” Some of these people have been discrediting information I've been desseminating for years only to resurface later to embrace the same information, with the qualifier, “I’ve been doing that for a long time.” They should go back to beating the Neanderthal bag and let adults have their discussions.

At any rate, one use of “Spatial Distortion” examines how the human body determines its relationship with other objects in space through its senses and focuses primarily on the Visual Cortex Line of Sight, and its affect on base Startle Reflex Mechanisms. Its very nature precludes an individual from being capable of compensating, even with advance notice, and it does break down structural integrity creating momentary weakness and a lack of coordination.

A very simplistic example that is not combat related to help you understand:

Have you ever been focused on an object while moving, and been distracted enough to lose your place in space in anticipation of some physical action that requires a significant shift in weight, balance, and muscle use?

Like looking at a well-endowed woman while walking and anticipating “stepping off of a curb” only to prematurely “miss.” Now the ground didn’t move, but you expected your foot to drop in height, so your body anticipated the change in height, adjusted your weight distribution in anticipation of the extra weight on one side of your body, and your arm swing moved to counter-balance the action.

When the “drop off” didn’t occur, for a second you felt like an idiot. You were momentarily weak, uncoordinated, startled and confused. And although you recovered quickly, for that moment you were extremely vulnerable. A good understanding of how these mechanisms work will allow you to induce the same effect, subconsciously and totally destroy a person’s structural integrity without their knowledge as they initiate an assault.

That’s the “Spatial Distortion” I was speaking of as I understand, use, and teach it to my students. Hope that helps a bit, and please excuse the insert rants not directed at you. Idiots get old, but continue to be idiots nevertheless.

 

[sumdumguy]

Great example Doc! I don't think I would have related "spatial distortion" quite that way?
Riddle me this, When in combat and using this practice, doesn't the line of sight of the opponent vs our movement, i.e. isolation effect an opponent somewhat similarly? Or, are you saying that this is an effect of an anticipated (mental) motion or movement of the body?
Maybe I am just really confused? Yep I think so......... :asian:

 

[rmcrobertson]

Since some--not all, but some--of the stuff written here is either pseudo-science (three bops with a copy of, "The Dancing Wu Li Masters," for the guilty parties) or poetry, I'd suggest that useful lines of discussion would include: a) the fake science of kenpo; b) the intellectualism of kenpo; c) the personal use of pseudo-science and poetry in kenpo; d) the aesthetic quality of poetic expressions in kenpo.

 

[Dominic Jones]

Hi

Dr Chapel talked about each Stage of Contact/Range having increasing numbers of sub-category(s) as the range decreases. That is, Stage 1 has 1 sub-category; Stage 2 has 2 or more sub-categories; Stage 3 has 3 or more sub-categories Stage 4 has 4 or more categories.

Does each individual Stage have 1 “new” category thus ending with 4 categories at Stage 4 or does each individual Stage have more than 1 new category thus ending with more than 4 categories at Stage 4.

Can each sub- category be further divided into new sub-sub-categories?

If possible Dr Chapel could you elaborate on the sub-category(s) of the Contact Penetration Stage.


On a final thought, are the sub-categories related to the 8 Considerations of Combat (Environment, Range, Positions, Maneuvers, Targets, Natural Weapons, Blocks, Cover) as Touch of Death hinted at.
Stage 1 (Out of Reach) relates to Environment, Range, Maneuvers
Stage 2 (Within Contact) relates to Environment, Range, Maneuvers, Positions, Targets
Stage 3 (Contact Penetration) relates to Environment, Range, Maneuvers, Positions, Targets, Natural Weapons, Blocks
Stage 4 (Contact Manipulation) relates to Environment, Range, Maneuvers, Positions, Targets, Natural Weapons, Blocks, Cover

Cheers Dom :asian: