Differences between Kenpo and Kempo?

John Bishop said:
Every thing discussed on this topic by me and many others has been done out in the open here, on the Kajukenbo Cafe, at the Kenponet, and other forums.

I invite Mr. Juchnik to come to this forum and discuss the topic first hand. Not to send students here to speak for him. I know he sells a video tape called "the contraversy" or something like that. But all martial arts knowledge shouldn't be for sale. He has the opportunity to speak for himself here and put matters to rest if he feels the information being discussed here is incorrect. Simple as that.
Me calling Mr. Juchnik would prove absolutely nothing to the members here. And I find it odd that he would not want to answer these questions out in the open where they were asked, instead of behind the scenes. Kosho Ryu is not a secret society where you have to be a dues paying member to learn it's history.
There are presently 3 Kosho Ryu topic threads active right now that are being read by thousands of Kenpo people. Where is Mr. Juchnik to speak up for system, and himself? If there is misinformation being put out here, then he should come on and correct it.

No more messengers, let's here from Mr. Juchnik himself.
Click to expand...


All martial arts knowledge shouldn't be for sale, sir then I guess I should be given copies of all the articles you ever wrote. I shouldn't have to pay for those pesky magazines. Nor should I have to pay for Emparado's memoirs which he was supposedly writing in the West Virginia Mountains a decade ago. I shouldn't have had to pay for the copy of The Martial Arts Encyclopedia I have. I shouldn't have to pay for all the gas I bought going to and from martial arts classes and seminars and planes tickets to Hawaii, The east coast and Australia in the name of the arts, just to name a few.
All Knowledge comes at some cost. The price of a tape is not a big deal.

kelly
 
That quote from Kimpatsu (Tony Kehoe) is brief and to the point. So much so that it may be overlooked by those who need more "words" to be convinced.

Tony is a keen Budoka and a professional translator. In this kind of discussion, his statements should be afforded the respect that a Consultant Surgeon would merit when giving a medical opinion. In contrast, most of us are keen amateurs, with the kind of knowledge level that is often described as "a dangerous thing".

The fact that he has an outrageous online persona that gets him banned from forums is a shocking waste of his worth to the community. He just won't lay down and shut up when he knows he's right. He also has a dim view of Christianity and it is usually his forthright rejection of "Belief" and "Faith" that seals his fate. His advocacy for Atheism often results in offence being taken by those who count themselves as Believers, and as any forum worth being a member of will attempt to clamp down on offensive behaviour... he ends up signing his own death warrant (won't back down...).

Strangely, it seems that everyone who goes to Japan ends up in a bar with Tony at some stage and as far as I can tell, they all reckon he's a decent chap.




SO anyway... Short answer is "M or N, doesn't mean anything to a Japanese". Shorter answer "History doesn't always make sense".
 
Professor in regards to your post. No I would not be embarrased. If there was a lie told it rests on Mitose's head. I was never led down a false path. Logicly speaking you must view anything being put forth by a person with a record like Mitose's with skepticism. If Mitose made the whole thing up, and it's proven. Then what happens? I get to shed the reputation of Mitose from the art? When askedI can honestly give my oppinion
about who I think made that system grow and who I think deserves the credit for the development of the art in the last 20+ years Without the stigma of Mitose.
I said on the phone and in posts that I was willing to concede if it was proven Mitose made it up. Would it be logical for me not to?
I know who did the work to make Kosho Ryu what it is, and I know the possibilities of where Kosho Ryu came from.
If I might diverge from the origional point for a second.
If you'll notice I never said John Bishop or yourself were wrong in any of my posts. Any issues that arose came from discrepancies I obseverved I have specificly pointed them out in previous posts. For example whether or not Kempo was spelled with an N/M I don't think I stated It was specificly spelled either way. What I did do was to cite specific examples that contradicted John to show that historicly speaking it has been spelled both ways. Because historicly speaking it has been spelled both ways.
Back to task.
Here is where I might take some heat from the Kosho groups. Those who study Kosho need to be prepared to be wrong. They need to be man/women enough to deal with it and understand it does not take away from the art they do. I'm not saying we arewrong. What I'm saying is don't take a position and make it god. If Mitose made it up then so what. There have been literally millions of people who have been better off over the years from what is possibly his lie. Let's look at it how many systems have sprouted from his teachings.

Kelly
 
John Bishop said:
Every thing discussed on this topic by me and many others has been done out in the open here, on the Kajukenbo Cafe, at the Kenponet, and other forums.

I invite Mr. Juchnik to come to this forum and discuss the topic first hand. Not to send students here to speak for him. I know he sells a video tape called "the contraversy" or something like that. But all martial arts knowledge shouldn't be for sale. He has the opportunity to speak for himself here and put matters to rest if he feels the information being discussed here is incorrect. Simple as that.
Me calling Mr. Juchnik would prove absolutely nothing to the members here. And I find it odd that he would not want to answer these questions out in the open where they were asked, instead of behind the scenes. Kosho Ryu is not a secret society where you have to be a dues paying member to learn it's history.
There are presently 3 Kosho Ryu topic threads active right now that are being read by thousands of Kenpo people. Where is Mr. Juchnik to speak up for system, and himself? If there is misinformation being put out here, then he should come on and correct it.

No more messengers, let's here from Mr. Juchnik himself.
Click to expand...

Whose a massenger? Who was sent here? I came her before hanshi Juchnik ever knew I was posting. Give me a break.
kell
 
wow.........i want to read more tony kehoe posts.
and as far as mitose being a fraud......if thats the way it is, then so be it.....i will not lose my love for the arts. I think thomas mitose would be some ticked off though!
 
I didn't know lizards could type. Or was it a different animal in that Dr. Dolittle movie. Either way no anger here. Just questions.

kelly
 
Tripitaka of AA said:
Tony is a keen Budoka and a professional translator. In this kind of discussion, his statements should be afforded the respect that a Consultant Surgeon would merit when giving a medical opinion. In contrast, most of us are keen amateurs, with the kind of knowledge level that is often described as "a dangerous thing".

The fact that he has an outrageous online persona that gets him banned from forums is a shocking waste of his worth to the community. He just won't lay down and shut up when he knows he's right. He also has a dim view of Christianity and it is usually his forthright rejection of "Belief" and "Faith" that seals his fate. His advocacy for Atheism often results in offence being taken by those who count themselves as Believers, and as any forum worth being a member of will attempt to clamp down on offensive behaviour... he ends up signing his own death warrant (won't back down...).
Click to expand...
Totally. Tony has never backed down from his beliefs, and that is because he has character. He has made people mad, said things that are controversial to the "public" and perhaps aren't PC, but that's freedom of speech and to me, his right.

For instance, if Tony and another individual were sitting in a bar arguing over Christianity tooth and nail, heated words were exchanged and emotions stomped upon and suddenly there was a massive earthquake that opened up the floor and his opponent fell into the crevace hanging on by one finger, Tony would be the FIRST to risk his life to save them. Unless they said like, "IT'S A GI" or something ;)

Just my humble opinion.
 
Oh, you must be talking about Kempatsu (as I knew him from e-budo.com)?? What happened to him? He and I, almost a year ago, actually had a *very courteous* discussion on religious topics for a few days over there at e-budo. It was just two of us for a while on that thread with a large audience of lurkers. There were actually users who were betting how long it would take before there would be insults thrown. Even a few posted to me on the thread as well as privately saying they were amazed that we could converse so civilly for so long (Huh, people? Respect goes a long way, ya know? It's a two way street). There never were any insults between us even though we disagreed with each other and it lasted for several posts until some other people took offense at some of his comments and jumped in with some diatribes (read: mud-slinging). I then left because the others were downright rude to him and I didn't return back to e-budo. Oh well, for what it was worth, we had a nice thing going for a time.

The point of why I brought this up is I sincerely believe that it is very much possible to carry on an extensive and thought provoking conversation if the people debating remember to stick by one rule: no personal shots (these aren't necessary). That was the rule Kempatsu and I agreed and stuck to during these few days. I miss him because I find him quite intelligent and very capable of being courteous.

- Ceicei
 
kelly keltner said:
Professor in regards to your post. No I would not be embarrased. If there was a lie told it rests on Mitose's head. I was never led down a false path. Logicly speaking you must view anything being put forth by a person with a record like Mitose's with skepticism. If Mitose made the whole thing up, and it's proven. Then what happens? I get to shed the reputation of Mitose from the art? When askedI can honestly give my oppinion
about who I think made that system grow and who I think deserves the credit for the development of the art in the last 20+ years Without the stigma of Mitose.
I said on the phone and in posts that I was willing to concede if it was proven Mitose made it up. Would it be logical for me not to?
I know who did the work to make Kosho Ryu what it is, and I know the possibilities of where Kosho Ryu came from.
If I might diverge from the origional point for a second.
If you'll notice I never said John Bishop or yourself were wrong in any of my posts. Any issues that arose came from discrepancies I obseverved I have specificly pointed them out in previous posts. For example whether or not Kempo was spelled with an N/M I don't think I stated It was specificly spelled either way. What I did do was to cite specific examples that contradicted John to show that historicly speaking it has been spelled both ways. Because historicly speaking it has been spelled both ways.
Back to task.
Here is where I might take some heat from the Kosho groups. Those who study Kosho need to be prepared to be wrong. They need to be man/women enough to deal with it and understand it does not take away from the art they do. I'm not saying we arewrong. What I'm saying is don't take a position and make it god. If Mitose made it up then so what. There have been literally millions of people who have been better off over the years from what is possibly his lie. Let's look at it how many systems have sprouted from his teachings.

Kelly
Click to expand...
One other thing while feeling spry here at 11:22 pm california time. I was lookong at Mitose's manuscriipt for What is True Self-Defense, and I noticed kempo was spelled with an M and an N in several places. Go figure?

kelly
 
Mr. Juchnik has been gracious enough to contact me via email. I have sent him the following response:

" Thank you very much for your kind offer of communication.
Several Kenpo practitioners have been discussing Kosho Ryu topics and yourself at the talk forum: www.martialtalk.com . You will find some very strong opinions and beliefs in these discussions, but I feel that civil debate and discussion can be a very important contribution to the learning process. I know that we could probably have some very fruitful discussions on various Kenpo topics, and we may sometime in the future. But at this time I would like to invite you to participate in the discussions at Martial Talk. There are many more people there than just me interested in Kenpo history, and you are someone who has much information to share. I hope you will take this opportunity to share some of your knowledge with the Kenpo community. "

I hope he accepts my invitation to participate in our discussions here.
 
Ceicei said:
Oh, you must be talking about Kempatsu (as I knew him from e-budo.com)?? What happened to him? - Ceicei
Click to expand...

He's still at large on E-Budo.com, but banned from just about everywhere else :(. Moved back to Tokyo (from Osaka), and is starting up his own Translation business (having grown tired of working for others). He always uses the Username "Kimpatsu" and if anyone is curious, just do a search on any Forum and you'll usually find some fine examples of work. There are usually only three subjects though; Grammar, "dogi/gi", religion.... ;)
 
Kelly stated: Here is where I might take some heat from the Kosho groups. Those who study Kosho need to be prepared to be wrong. They need to be man/women enough to deal with it and understand it does not take away from the art they do. I'm not saying we arewrong. What I'm saying is don't take a position and make it god. If Mitose made it up then so what. There have been literally millions of people who have been better off over the years from what is possibly his lie. Let's look at it how many systems have sprouted from his teachings.


I say: That's good, Kelly. I totally respect your viewpoint and couldn't agree more.
 
Tripitaka of AA said:
He's still at large on E-Budo.com, but banned from just about everywhere else :(. Moved back to Tokyo (from Osaka), and is starting up his own Translation business (having grown tired of working for others). He always uses the Username "Kimpatsu" and if anyone is curious, just do a search on any Forum and you'll usually find some fine examples of work. There are usually only three subjects though; Grammar, "dogi/gi", religion.... ;)
Click to expand...
Thanks for the spelling correction--it had been a while. I did stop over at E-budo last night for a few minutes to check the member list but didn't stay to browse.

- Ceicei
 
Hello,

It has been interesting to watch this unfold, centralizing on Hanshi Bruce Juchnik, which in some respects it is correct and some not. He is the keeper of the flame so to speak. Trying to teach what his teacher told him, to go find and to keep his teachings (Mitose) to others alive.

If you will notice that Hanshi Bruce has gone to other Masters and asked their imput and then incorporated some of the Katas and Tech's they knew to be in the Art of Mitose's teachings, He even went to Terry Lee to see what the Master taught him in the last year of his exposure to the Master.

I think the through way Hanshi Bruce went down the path to find the information, put it together to compose the Art of the Late GGM Mitose, then present it to the best of his ability. He will survive it just fine, better then the others I would suppose.

The thought that runs through my mind is James Mitose and his son Thomas along with, Al Tracy who has a different story then either of the other mentioned persons.

Since Sijo Emperado was to side with Thomas Mitose on the proper lineage to be handed the Disciple ship, the fact that Thomas Mitose is a person in Sijo's organization, I would suspect there is more out there then has been turned as of yet.
When I mentioned the topic was going to be aired on TV over at the San Jose Kenpo board it was not something they were familiar with, no one had contacted Al Tracy. I would figure that will occure about the time they are going to contact Hanshi Bruce.

So if you are going to point the finger at anyone it will have to be into the corner of Thomas Mitose and Sijo Emperado, considering he knew James Mitose the longest. (along with others who are now being interviewed).

If Hanshi Bruce Juchnik is to be believed as he has stated in several books.
He thought his teacher (Mitose) was telling him the truth, also what turned up in Japan helped him stay on that path. He wrote about it extensively, with all the work that was put into and trying to confirm the information. I think in his mind he did confirm it and therefore went forth and continued what he thought was the right path.

Al Tracy on his board tells a different story and at times tells the Kosho people they are on the wrong path. He has quite a bit of information and research that he tells on his web site.

It will be interesting to see how it unfolds in the next year.

Regards, Gary
 
kelly keltner said:
All martial arts knowledge shouldn't be for sale, sir then I guess I should be given copies of all the articles you ever wrote. I shouldn't have to pay for those pesky magazines. Nor should I have to pay for Emparado's memoirs which he was supposedly writing in the West Virginia Mountains a decade ago. I shouldn't have had to pay for the copy of The Martial Arts Encyclopedia I have. I shouldn't have to pay for all the gas I bought going to and from martial arts classes and seminars and planes tickets to Hawaii, The east coast and Australia in the name of the arts, just to name a few.
All Knowledge comes at some cost. The price of a tape is not a big deal.

kelly
Click to expand...
Not really. I have never talked to anyone of note in the martial arts who would'nt freely discuss history and events. People come on this and many other forums everyday and volunteer information. And websites are full of free information.
I personally have never refused anyone free information. I'm open to discussions by phone, email, forum, and thru my website. As are most martial artists I've dealt with. And if you don't want to pay "those pesky magazine prices", you can read the information on my website, or just ask me for it. It is free. In fact I have to pay out of my pocket to put it on my website so I can give it away free.
So no, not all knowledge is for sale.
 
In response to hearing the phrase, "Give 'em hell, Harry" one day, Harry Truman responded, "I never gave them hell. I gave them the truth, and they thought it was hell."

Signed,

Pundit lurker.
 
i agree john......with the martial arts we are given a gift, and as students and teachers, its our responsibility to keep that gift alive, even with all of the arguing, or stories, whether true or false....people come to us to learn, and for myself, i feel that it is a gift to be able to teach.

shawn
 
John Bishop said:
Not really. I have never talked to anyone of note in the martial arts who would'nt freely discuss history and events. People come on this and many other forums everyday and volunteer information. And websites are full of free information.
I personally have never refused anyone free information. I'm open to discussions by phone, email, forum, and thru my website. As are most martial artists I've dealt with. And if you don't want to pay "those pesky magazine prices", you can read the information on my website, or just ask me for it. It is free. In fact I have to pay out of my pocket to put it on my website so I can give it away free.
So no, not all knowledge is for sale.
Click to expand...
I did not say all knowledge was for sale. I said it came with a cost. The difference being a little tricky verbage.
To gain one thing many times you must give up another. Many times the the cost is time coupled with money. The result being what you want, and what you want costs you that time and money.
You are correct John all Knowledge is not for sale, but all knowledge comes at some cost. Sometimes that cost could be as cheap as a phone call.
kelly
 
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