Differences between Kenpo and Kempo?

[John Bishop]

John

First and foremost make the phone call and quit dancing around the issue.
second the word kempo has been spelled with both an m and an n in various places and times in history. I quoted Bruce A. Haines book which was published in 1968 in a previous post. If you look in the footnotes section in the back much of the information he used came from interviews he did with Mitose around 1958-60. In that book Kosho Ryu Kempo is spelled with an M.
Thirdly I never called anyone, especially Thomas Young a liar. My personal opinion is that it problably didn't matter much to Mitose how Kempo was spelled. It problably didn't matter to Young either. Did you audio or video tape the interview you did with him? Bottom line is the certificate says what it says, and the fact remains that Thomas Young had an close eleven year relationship with Bruce Juchnik. Yes Paul Yamaguichi is a friend of mine, no I have not seen his certificate.
Bottom line is make the call man. If you need the number email me.

kelly

Wow, I go out of town for a couple of days, and look what happens.
Kelly, I don't know you, or have any clue as to your standing in the Kosho Ryu organization. I'm sure you consider yourself a devoted student of Bruce Juchnik. But if Mr. Juchnik wants to talk to me, he can contact me himself. Funny, over the last 15 years, I have been told by several people like you that "Bruce Juchnik wants to talk to you". Seems like everytime one of my articles came out, or something came up on a website or talk forum, I get the calls or emails about how Mr. Juchnik wants to talk to me.
Well if Mr. Juchnik wants to talk to me so bad he can email me and I'll give him my phone number. (No, I won't post my personal phone number on the internet). It seems odd that he has never attempted to talk to me at the many Northern California events we've attended. We've even been within arms reach of each other several times at these events. I'm not hard to find. I've had people from all over the country call me at work, or contact me thru the magazine editors.
I have made my statements in public, and Mr. Juchnik also has the ability to post here, and correct anything he feels is incorrect information about him, Kosho Ryu history, or his organization. And, don't use the excuse that he's above these discussions, or he's too busy. We all have busy lives.

I have already said that I have talked to a living Thomas Young, so why would I want to see a supposed document that contridicts the information he gave me? He's dead, so I can't confirm with him that the document is real or not. And no, I was old fashion in the 80's and didn't use computers, video tapes, and tape recorders for all my research and writing. I do have notebooks with dates, times, and notes from every interview I ever did for the 66 magazine articles I wrote, and the books I contributed to. So, I guess it's just a matter of you saying my notes are wrong, so you don't have to believe me.
If this document is so important to support Mr. Juchnik's changing the Ke"N"po spelling he once used, to the "Ke"M"po spelling he now uses; then he should post it on his website along side the certificate Mitose gave him, which by the way uses the "Ke"N"po spelling.

About Bruce Haines book "Karate's History and Traditions". I do have the book, and the document it was developed from. All the research and interviews are in the masters thesis that Bruce Haines did in 1962 for the University of Hawaii. It's called "Karate and it's development in Hawaii to 1959". And yes he in every instance refer's to Mitose's art as "Kosho Ryu Ke"N"po". And you don't have to believe me, a copy of the thesis can be purchased from the University of Hawaii.

About the A&E documentary "THE GATEWAY - Martial Arts in Hawaii." I am not a paid researcher. I have been exchanging new and old research with Prof. Jaime Abregana on the Hawaiian Kenpo arts, and Hawaiian Lua (two parts of the 5 part documentary). I have also been asked to help with some scriptwriting, interviews, and research projects. This is a very exciting project for Kenpo people because a lot of questions may finally be answered.

 

[Karazenpo]

Dr. Dave wrote:

Prof Shuras:

You know I'm with you on most stuff most of the time. But I fail to see how one is unable to look forward without looking back. I don't drive the countryside with my gaze fixed in the rear-view mirror. I tell my history buff students that the kenpo history is a mess, made worse by politics and paper trails, but that they should be grateful to the forefathers for their ingenuity because it has, at each level and regardless of the causes, created a fine family of systems to study.

The butterfly does not emerge from its coccoon concerned about life as a caterpillar; it concerns itself with the business of being a butterfly, and proceeds with life from that point, forward. Snakes to do not ponder the fates of their shed skins. Phoenix's arise from the ashes to fly off, not pick through the ashes looking for the bones of their former selves.

I say: Yes, Dave, we are usually on the same page but let me give a little more indepth rationale behind my thoughts. There is also a saying: Dwell on the past, you rob the present but IGNORE the past you rob the FUTURE. Yes, the past of our arts is a 'tangled web' but as a history major, I can tell you this backed by fact, all history is a tangled web but that doesn't mean we should cut out U.S. and World history form our educational curriculum, does it? Let's just take some fairly current history-John Kerry's version of his tour of duty in Vietnam. Now, that goes back only to the late 60's and many witnesses and fellow military personel of that time period have come forward and given two different versions of the same event. The book 'Unfit to Serve' is in dire conflict to Kerry's version. I'm in no way passing judgement either way but just giving an example of history in general. Another example, the Pasadena incident with Mitose. This weekend I had the pleasure of speaking to a kempo brother again whom I met a couple of years back. He is of EPAK and is also a respected and very knowledgable historian. He spoke of the Pasadena situation involving Mr. Mitose and Mr. Parker. He stated in conducting interviews of some who were there he got conflicting reports as to Mitose's performance. One witness whom he named was impressed by Mitose, another whom is also named, wasn't. Remember, this historian is of EPAK so there is no bias toward Kosho ryu. He has contributed to this board and if he wishes to comment on this, fine. My point being is, again, this situation happened in the mid 60's and we still get two perspectives of the same event. That's the way it is and always will be when it comes to historical events. Martial artists of this era , the 21st century, are more educated and more inquisitive than ever before and perhaps it is up to this new generation to at least attempt to untangle this web the best we can. No, like any other history, we will never have all the answers but we surely can do much better than the myths that have been perpetuated all these years. Understanding some of the negative aspects of our history, once uncovered, will also help the public and the martial arts community in general from being 'taken' by any up and coming charletons of the future which reflects my opening daoist saying: 'Dwell on the past, you rob the present but ignore the past, you rob the future'. So, we shouldn't obsess over the history but we should have a decent understanding of our roots. Again, always a pleasure, Dr. Dave.

 

[kelly keltner]

Ok here we go. How many times have I offered to make the connection between you and Bruce Juchnik how many times have I been told no. As far as the M/n spelling thing it is silly you know it and I know it. All I have ever said is that it is spelled both ways. In Bruce Haines book that was published in 1968 and republished in the mid-nineties kempo is spelled with an M. If the document that Bruce Haines book was developed from the n spelling was used then why the change? Does it really matter?

Bruce Juchnik could spell it Kosho Ryu Kempo or Kosho Ryu Kenpo It wouldn't matter. Would you like it spelled Kosho Ryu Kenpo in all future written works? I can ask if he would do that to make you happy.
As far as the magazine article goes there is still a discrepancy there. If you didn't wish to speak to Mr. Juchnik I suppose you could check with Thomas Young's family and ask to see the certificate.

So you can't confirm your article except your own personal notes, and you won't confirm the certificate? Interesting paradox wouldn't you say.

If Mitose's art came from Okinawa or Japan it doesn't matter. If Mitose made the whole thing up it doesn't matter. Great masters have talked to mists in their backyards and used that as justification to created their own arts, people have dreamed they were taught by their dead grandfathers and created their own arts. These arts are considered legitimate by todays standards. One of them was used as a standard part of the LAPD'S training curiculum for years. The LAPD set the standard for officer training in most of the U.S.A. They invented S.W.A.T. for goodnes sake. What were they thinking implementing an art like AKIDO when Ueshiba was a guy talking to fog in his back yard. Kajukenbo came out of the Palama settlements in Hawaii. Yeah I suppose all the students that came out of those classes were candidates for catholic sainthood.

If you have been at events in the past where you knew Bruce Juchnik was there, Why didn't you walk up to him and say"Hi I'm John Bishop I heard you wished to speak with me." So I would say the question goes both ways. Why doesn't Mr. Juchnik talk to John Bishop? Why doesn't Mr. Bishop talk to Mr. Juchnik?
When given an oppurtunity to rectify this situation you don't take it. Why doesn't Mr. Juchnik take it? I don't know, all I can do is offer to help make it happen.

kelly

 

[KENPOJOE]

Hi Folks!
I read this thread today and decided to add my 2 cents to the entire issue...
1."what is the difference between KeMpo and KeNpo?"
If you refering to the word itself and it's meaning, then the word itself comes from the mandarin chinese term "Chuan Fa" or the "Law of the fist" not way [tao or do] or method as some people erroneously refer to it. In cantonese is is refered to as "Ken Fat". When the art was brought to the ryukyu islands [Okinawa] the native tongue of Hogun was used to translate the chinese charaters [sp] and then translated the individual kanji into Ken-Po = Kenpo. This form of the term is used in several english translations of okinawan texts and was even used by the All Okinawa Kenpo Karate League comprised of Fusei Kise, Shikichi Odo and others...I have seen this certificate with the logo that would later be adopted by the Chito ryu system and the english clearly states Kenpo. When the Japanese pronounce this term, using the later Japanse systax, they pronounce it KeMpo [BTW, in Japan, Kempo is a generic reference to chinese martial arts]. The difference is similar to the spanish/puerto rican pronunciation of certain words and phrases "yo me llamo" in spanish as opposed to "Jo me Jamo" in the puerto rican dialect.

I hope that I was of some service,
KENPOJOE

 

[KENPOJOE]

One other thing; In the book Karate's History and Traditions written by Bruce A. Haines. Which was first published in 1968. Kosho Ryu Kempo Is spelled with an M. It goes on to explain Mitose's art. There is a revised edition currently available through Tuttle Publications.

kelly

Hi Folks,
Regarding Bruce Haines book,
It's sad that in neither version they took the time to correct Ed Parker's name as being Edmund, and not edward as is listed in both versions of the book. BTW, I made a point of called Mark Wiley,who was associated with Tuttle at the time, and mentioned it to him and another Tuttle rep about the misspelling, was anything done about it? no.
The same may hold true for the spelling of Kenpo/kempo.
BEGOOD,
KENPOJOE

 

[John Bishop]

Every thing discussed on this topic by me and many others has been done out in the open here, on the Kajukenbo Cafe, at the Kenponet, and other forums.

I invite Mr. Juchnik to come to this forum and discuss the topic first hand. Not to send students here to speak for him. I know he sells a video tape called "the contraversy" or something like that. But all martial arts knowledge shouldn't be for sale. He has the opportunity to speak for himself here and put matters to rest if he feels the information being discussed here is incorrect. Simple as that.
Me calling Mr. Juchnik would prove absolutely nothing to the members here. And I find it odd that he would not want to answer these questions out in the open where they were asked, instead of behind the scenes. Kosho Ryu is not a secret society where you have to be a dues paying member to learn it's history.
There are presently 3 Kosho Ryu topic threads active right now that are being read by thousands of Kenpo people. Where is Mr. Juchnik to speak up for system, and himself? If there is misinformation being put out here, then he should come on and correct it.

No more messengers, let's here from Mr. Juchnik himself.

 

[KENPOJOE]

... I have complete faith that Professor Jaime Abregana is conducting an unbiased, intensive and factual investigation in an honest attempt to seperate fact from fiction and present an historically accurate history of the birth of the martial arts in Hawaii. ... His lineage is through Marino Tiwanik's C.H.A. 3 Kenpo which was a forerunner of Kajukenbo. I'll say something else about the Okinawan connection we have discussed on this forum. Professor Eugene Sedeno stated that Professor Chow taught forms in those early years. He recalls that the forms were Okinawan. Now, couple that with others who stated Mitose practiced Naihanchi Shodan. Sijo Emperado stated he recalls the elders of the time saying the kenpo was Okinawan in origin but never heard any facts to back up that belief. Again, as a history major I can tell you, all history, world & U.S., has controversies and inaccuracies but hopefully all the major questions of Mitose's background will finally be answered.

Hi Folks!
Dear Joe Shuras,
Just wanted to make a couple of points clear here...
CHA# is not a forerunner of Kajukenbo, Rather, Marino Tiwanak was Adriano's first Black Belt in kenpo/kajukenbo before he created CHA3 [named after the location where Tiwanak taught Central or chinese housing area or association -building 3].
In regards to Mitose/Chow forms, Mitose indeed taught the Nihanchi form, whther he had learned it from Mutsu's text that he took the pictures from to use in "What is self defense" or had learned it from other sources is unsure, however Chow did know the form and it would be the foundation for the "lines" of techniques and basics that he would teach later [Such as Hansuki] that would later become forms. Brian Adams, author of "The Medical Implication of Karate Blows" which would later be renamed "Deadly karate Blows" with the pics changed [a real travesty to do that, i think!], told me when I interviewed him in California that He had film footage of chow doing a form as he had filmed it himself! William Marciarelli, who trained along with Prof. Nick Cerio under Prof Chow, also confirmed that Chow did do forms as well as techniques. But remember, Kenpo/kempo has always been a technique based system first and foremost!
I hope that i was of some service,
KENPOJOE

 

[KENPOJOE]

Hi Folks!
Been reading this thread because of a phone call I had with Joe Shuras yesterday and there is one aspect of this thread that kind of bothers me...

Kelly: John Bishop is under no obligation to contact Hanshi Juchnick if he does not desire to do so. You made the offer to help him and if he doesn't do it, that's his perogative. But when you try to make a poll out of it to see if you get support that borders on sheer stupidity. Either the guy does it or he doesn't and you shouldn't try to force him to do so.
John:Bruce Juchnick doesn't have to answer to you or anyone else on this board or any other board on the net. He's probably too busy working on his organization to be wasting his time reading this stuff anyway. IMHO, if you did indeed call him you'd probably find a really likeable person who you would have a wonderful conversation with on the martial arts. I remember the first time he ever came to new england and he pointed at me during the seminar and said "I'm so glad you are here!" because i wasn't afraid to ask questions and I knew what to ask him and he sincierely appreciated my asking them.

In closing, it never ceases to amaze me how people carry their testicles or ovaries in a cyber wheelbarrel when they are on the net and they think that other famous martial artists have nothing better to do than go online and answer their posts. Sorry folks, but most times they are busy teaching,doing seminars,creating videos/DVDs and in general, promoting the martial arts and many of them consider posting to the boards a waste of time and effort. Sorry to be the harbinger of bad news but it is the truth.
I hope that I was of some service,
KENPOJOE
PS: Dear Kelly,I have a copy of thomas young's certificate from mitose and when i find it,i'll scan it and paste it here to clarify this whole point regarding this particular matter.
BEGOOD!

 

[John Bishop]

Hi Folks!
In closing, it never ceases to amaze me how people carry their testicles or ovaries in a cyber wheelbarrel when they are on the net and they think that other famous martial artists have nothing better to do than go online and answer their posts. Sorry folks, but most times they are busy teaching,doing seminars,creating videos/DVDs and in general, promoting the martial arts and many of them consider posting to the boards a waste of time and effort. Sorry to be the harbinger of bad news but it is the truth.
I hope that I was of some service,
KENPOJOE
BEGOOD!

Kenpo Joe:
I sure hope your speaking in generalities about the people who hide behind "cyber monikers" so they can talk trash. I have a whole lot more respect for someone that uses their "real" name and are up front about who they are, and where they're from. (But if you really are referring to me, you can check my profile, I'm pretty easy to find. So next time we're in the same neighborhood, feel free to explain to me why you think I'm carrying my testicles in a cyber wheel barrel.)

And no, Mr. Juchnik does not have to come on the forum and answer any questions. But please, enough with the "he's too famous" to waste his time talking with us mere students of the arts. Ego is one of the most distasteful aspects of the arts. And I'm sure many share my opinion that it is very damaging to the arts. Buy the way, GM Sam Kuoha wasn't too famous, or too busy to speak up when questions were raised about him and Prof. Chow.
Let's face it, the internet is the best way to address a large audience instantly, all over the world.

 

[KENPOJOE]

Kenpo Joe:
I sure hope your speaking in generalities about the people who hide behind "cyber monikers" so they can talk trash. I have a whole lot more respect for someone that uses their "real" name and are up front about who they are, and where they're from. (But if you really are referring to me, you can check my profile, I'm pretty easy to find. So next time we're in the same neighborhood, feel free to explain to me why you think I'm carrying my testicles in a cyber wheel barrel.)

And no, Mr. Juchnik does not have to come on the forum and answer any questions. But please, enough with the "he's too famous" to waste his time talking with us mere students of the arts. Ego is one of the most distasteful aspects of the arts. And I'm sure many share my opinion that it is very damaging to the arts. Buy the way, GM Sam Kuoha wasn't too famous, or too busy to speak up when questions were raised about him and Prof. Chow.
Let's face it, the internet is the best way to address a large audience instantly, all over the world.

Hi John,
I was not just refering to individuals who hide behind the "cyber fascade" of fake names and rerouted accounts [ALTHOUGH THEY ARE THE MAIN CULPRITS], I also refer the the people who think that they are so "famous" themselves that they feel they can call out other people in the martial arts and expect them to come running to respond to them on the net or are complete unknowns who feel the internet gives them the power to call upon these people and have them appear at their beckon call. many martial artists of note that I know are completely disillusioned with the net and specifically martial arts message boards. They feel they cannot adequetely get their message accross and end up being the target for trolls and the subject of flame wars and in the end, they simply find it a waste of time and effort and would much rather spend their time teaching the arts they love to do. As far as the "genitalia in a cyber wheelbarrel" line, we have all been guilty of it at some point in our cyber careers. BTW, we have chatted on the phone before because I called you awhile ago,remember?
Many higher ranked instructors consider it a "no win" situation in regards to addressing boards such as this, and IF the person knows how to use a computer and IF they can get online and IF they can find this website abd IF they choose to sign up to join and IF they take the time to read an entire thread and IF they decide to take the time to type up a response and IF they know how to send it then MAYBE it will happen! John, that's a lot of IFs!
Admittedly,Ego is a distinct problem in the martial arts and especially on the net, [hence the wheelbarrel analogy] Distance breeds animosity and therefore a flase sense of security and bravado in many ways,but by the same token, it can be one of the impetuses that drive us to be better and succeed because of our value and "self worth"
In regards to GM Kuoha, I applaud his ability and willingness to answer questions regarding his art and his relationship with Prof. Chow. I was privilaged to have interviewed him for my TV show at Bruce Titcomb's school in Reading,MA years ago and he, his daughter Kaimi, his wife and the other high ranking black belts in attendence was gracious and personable to me and my film crew. By the same token, Sam Kuoha writes this board because he wants to, not because of some cyber quasi "challenge" hurled at him or anyone else, rather, most martial artists are familiar with the Magazines or TV programs in the mainstream media and when martialtalk.com get a mention it's a big deal!
I agree that the internet is indeed a great way for many people to find out about different arts,but that does not nessecitate individuals taking time from their schedules to respond to these inquiries, rather, simply send an email to hanshi juchnick's email or call him [use a cel phone after 7 or 9pm and call for free!]
In closing, I am intimately familar with your work and have all your martial arts articles that were published and have enjoyed your work. Keep writing and educate the martial arts as well as the general public.
I hope that I was of some service [sorry if this got off topic]
KENPOJOE

 

[John Bishop]

Joe:

I agree with you on many points you made. What I wanted to get across is the point that these forums are "the new media". And yes, we know of forums that are just trash talk by a bunch of mindless cowards, hiding behind the anonimity of a computer and a made up nickname. And I think we agree that it is a total abuse of this worldwide communicative tool.
The adminstrators and moderators here at Martial Talk are enforcing policies that make the forum friendly to users, and a very valuable educational tool.
Like I said, the internet allows for instant worldwide communication to the masses. And like the written media, it is only as good as the editorial guidelines it pratices. But it can accomplish a lot more than the printed media because it is a source of information and communication, that can be added to, corrected, and updated immediately.
When Mr. Juchnik produced the video "The Contraversy", I'm sure he did it so that he could address the issue in front of a much larger audience then he could thru phone calls and seminars. He proposes to be the head of a system that gave birth to millions of Kenpo practitioners around the world. Why would he not want to send his message to a much larger audiance, or at least correct mis-information?
Unlike some of the other trash talk forums, many people come here to be educated. If I call Mr. Juchnik, and Joe Shurus calls Mr. Juchnik, and you call Mr. Juchnik, well that's 3 people he's educated. How about hundreds or thousands of Kenpo people who have been following these threads in search of knowledge?

 

[Mekugi]

Hi Folks!
When the art was brought to the ryukyu islands [Okinawa] the native tongue of Hogun was used to translate the chinese charaters [sp] and then translated the individual kanji into Ken-Po = Kenpo.

HEY Joe!

Good to seeya!

Minor / semi-irrelevant lexiconographic points I thought I would share:

Hogen simply means "dialect" gleaned from my recent schooling, so it means nothing specific. In effect, the common name for the dialect should go as "Okinawaben". Further precision and snootiness on the subject will involve what is called "Shuri" ben , a standard for the islands based on the soft tones found in Kyoto at that time, for some reason. Which of course has sub-dialects, to further confuse the masses. Oh imagine that!

Anyway, Ken and Hou were the two sounds combined to form Kempo phonetically. The H in Hou is turned to P, after the "n" sound, which becomes M in this case because of a "glottal stop". Ugly business really, those glottal stops.

I would simply LOVE to post a picture of the Kanji here, maybe one of hte powers-that-be could arrange that? I have the tools for a JPEG!

(snip)[BTW, in Japan, Kempo is a generic reference to chinese martial arts]
I hope that I was of some service,
KENPOJOE

This is not necessarily true. Kempo is borrowed term and that is 100% fact. However, it should be recognized that there are also many other words and terms that are borrowed from China by Japan. This is due to the fact that Japan simply adopted the Chinese hieroglyphs for the written language. In effect, you have words for things that have no physical connection to China other than the characters were borrowed and the term gleaned into the spoken language. It could be argued that the Kempo’s connotation, as part of the budo vocabulary, has been borrowed numerous times without any influence from China. This, erroneosly, this is viewed as a direct connection to China. Supporting this notion, I know of two koryu bujutsu that use this term without any connection to any Chinese influence; as much as Japan can be, that is.

 

[kelly keltner]

Just a couple of questions.

Who stated that Bruce Juchnik was too famous to talk to anyone. I don't think that verbage came from my chubby little fingertips?

Next Bruce Juchnik didn't send me to this forum. Who's claiming that he is?

Then Who stated in post #6 of this thread? I would like to someday see a copy of this certificate,
and then went on to state in post #61 "why would I want to see a supposed document that contradicts the info he gave me?" (refering to the same document in post #6)

Finally a statement was made regarding Bruce Juchnik having a lot to lose in regards to this investigation. That is nonsense, this invsetigation is problably the best thing that has happend to kenpo I spelled it with an N just for you John, and for Kosho Ryu specificly. Do you think that Kosho Ryu just goes away, or that people will stop studying it just because Mitose may or may not have made it all up. In fact if it is proven that Mitose made it up then most of the credit of Kosho Ryu's growth goes to one man. Even if Kosho Ryu is a Mitose invention I will continue to study it.

Kenpojoe you are right I was a little out of line when I posted that poll, and I was bordering on stupidity. I do believe my points been made though. I would appreciate you posting your copy of that certificate.

kelly

P.S.
This is my real name I don't use false monikers I am an easy guy to get a hold of if anyone (yes this includes you john) wants to.

 

[BlackCatBonz]

if anyone would like any kanji, just PM me and let me know.....i can brush the characters, scan them, and email them to you....along with some instructions on how to brush them if you want

shawn

 

[Tripitaka of AA]

拳法
Ken + Hou

Pronounced "Kempo" (with a long "o")

 

[Karazenpo]

Hi Folks!
Dear Joe Shuras,
Just wanted to make a couple of points clear here...
CHA# is not a forerunner of Kajukenbo, Rather, Marino Tiwanak was Adriano's first Black Belt in kenpo/kajukenbo before he created CHA3 [named after the location where Tiwanak taught Central or chinese housing area or association -building 3].
In regards to Mitose/Chow forms, Mitose indeed taught the Nihanchi form, whther he had learned it from Mutsu's text that he took the pictures from to use in "What is self defense" or had learned it from other sources is unsure, however Chow did know the form and it would be the foundation for the "lines" of techniques and basics that he would teach later [Such as Hansuki] that would later become forms. Brian Adams, author of "The Medical Implication of Karate Blows" which would later be renamed "Deadly karate Blows" with the pics changed [a real travesty to do that, i think!], told me when I interviewed him in California that He had film footage of chow doing a form as he had filmed it himself! William Marciarelli, who trained along with Prof. Nick Cerio under Prof Chow, also confirmed that Chow did do forms as well as techniques. But remember, Kenpo/kempo has always been a technique based system first and foremost!
I hope that i was of some service,
KENPOJOE

Hello KenpoJoe, Yeah, maybe I didn't make myself clear or should have chosen a different word than 'forerunner' when I mentioned C.H.A #3 and Kajukenbo. What I meant was Marino Tiwanik (founder of C.H.A#3 Kenpo) is indeed Sijo Emperado's first black belt but many times he is erroneously listed as the first black belt in Kajukenbo. I received the following information directly from C.H.A. #3 people that Tiwanik's art was based on the early Kenpo that Emperado learned from Chow and Mitose and is actually referred to as Mitose's Kenpo because during that point in time that is what Chow essentially taught. Actual historical accounts show that the Kajukenbo concept is a later interpretation of which the original method was also based on Mitose's Kenpo. Again, Tiwanik is often confused as being Kajukenbo's first black belt because he was Emperado's first black belt and I was trying to make reference to the fact that his system was based on the 'forerunner' to Kajukenbo, if that makes sense, lol. I recently discussed this with Professor Abregana who's roots are C.H.A. #3 Kenpo. Joe, I'm looking forward to our meeting. I'm sending out e-mails today. I'll be in touch soon for a date that is suitable to all. Take care, Professor Joe

 

[Karazenpo]

Kelly stated: "Finally a statement was made regarding Bruce Juchnik having a lot to lose in regards to this investigation".

Kelly, I don't know if you are referring to one of my posts but I don't believe I stated he had a lot to lose but I must admit the implication is there and I stand by that. I have had indepth conversations from one of Hanshi's student's whom I've known for several years now and not through just the 'net'. I also did a seminar for him. He is Sensei John Evans of New Hampshire and I have much respect for the man although we don't always agree on things but what's wrong with that!, lol. Sensei John is the one who put me in touch with the well respected Shihan Mike Brown, historian of the Sei Kosho Shorei Kai of Hanshi Juchnik's organization. Also bear in mind I stated I have heard many, many good things of Juchnik from these people and I believe them so there is no bias on my part. However, learning what I have from them I'm just saying that if the Tanamaha connection for all intensive purposes appears to be factual and it seems to be and if and I say IF the Shaka In Temple and Mitose's Japanese training and his 21st decendant of Kosho thing proves false than Hanshi Juchnik and the Sei Kosho Shorei Kai will have to correct and rewrite the history of their system, of which they have professed for quite sometime now was factual. Yes, I think that is, in a sense, a lot to lose. Will Hanshi Juchnik still refer to himself as the 22nd decendant if it is proved there was no 21st? Believe me, I've had many rock'm sock'm arguments with John Evans over this history as he has had with others as you have had. The Kosho people have stood by this history 100 per cent. Will they finally admit, if proven true, that Mitose LIED about his art? Wouldn't you agree and I don't mean this to be derrogatory, so please don't take it that way, but don't you feel they'll be some embarrassment here. I would be a little embarrassed and I would also be a little upset that I was led down a false path. I agree with you, it doesn't take away Mitose's contribution to the martial arts in Hawaii in any way, shape or form. I agree, it will make no difference in the effectiveness of your art and he will still be the founder of this Hawaiian-derived Kenpo. I will always give him the credit of 'planting the seed that was nurtured and cultivated into the many fine systems we have today' BUT some serious corrections will have to be made regarding his lineage. Is this not an accurate, fair and unbiased assessment? Respectfully Professor Joe Shuras

 

[Karazenpo]

I took this from the Japanese arts section of this forum. It was posted by pknox. DOES THIS SOUND FAMILIAR? WHERE DID I HEAR THIS BEFORE! LOL.


The art was founded by Doshin Sho, and is supposed to be at the very least derived from the Shaolin temple arts. I guess it really depends on if you're talking about lineage or techniques.

So was born in Japan in 1911, and after traveling to China at age 17, lived there for some time. While in China (Beijing) he studied with Wen Laoshi. So succeeded him as the 21st master of the Northern Shorinji Giwamonken school. At that point, So's system was well within the orthodox lineage of Shaolin. Once So took over, he added to the art moves he had learned from other systems, and renamed the system Shorinji Kempo.

After WWII, So changed the focus a bit, using Shorinji Kempo as a way to rebuild the character and morale of the recently defeated and therefore depressed Japanese. So later went on to found a Zen temple in Japan that had his martial art at the forefront of its teachings.

I guess the simple answer would be that Shorinji Kempo's founder has a direct lineage to Shaolin, and the foundation art upon which Shorinji Kempo takes many of its techniques is definitely Shaolin, the art that is currently taught as Shorinji Kempo has been modified a bit from the original Northern Shaolin temple teachings.

Note that I am not a practitioner of Shorinji Kempo, just someone who is somewhat interested in its history, so anyone who is a practitioner, please feel free to correct any mistakes I have made.

 

[Karazenpo]

Found this one too. The poster is Kimpatsu, he's of Shorinji Kempo and lives in Japan:


There's no real semantic difference; the glottal stop "n" can also be pronounced as the plosive "m" in the middle of Japanese words. What then happens is that certain words adopt the "m" as convention; "shimbun" ("newspaper") is one such example.
Shorinji Kempo uses the "m" by convention, so we all use it for conformity. Other forms of kenpo choose to use the "n".
But there's no real mystery about it.
HTH.

 

[Mekugi]

That's Tony Kehoe, a good friend and one of the best linguists/translators in Japan, hands down. He'll go blow for blow with anyone with knowledge and etymology of Japanese -or- English (even a great deal of Chinese and trust me, I have been schooled by him many, many times- David TESTIFY!! ) He is fervent supporter of the "KeMpo" angle from my experience and against the use of "gi" - I just had to throw that in. Simply and obliviously this is because of his advanced and seemingly fluent use of the language. My wife, Japanese and a schoolteacher, heard him speak and was amazed by his skill, accent and education and was in disbelief that he was not born here.

Found this one too. The poster is Kimpatsu, he's of Shorinji Kempo and lives in Japan:


There's no real semantic difference; the glottal stop "n" can also be pronounced as the plosive "m" in the middle of Japanese words. What then happens is that certain words adopt the "m" as convention; "shimbun" ("newspaper") is one such example.
Shorinji Kempo uses the "m" by convention, so we all use it for conformity. Other forms of kenpo choose to use the "n".
But there's no real mystery about it.
HTH.