Differences between Kenpo and Kempo?

[kelly keltner]

One other thing; In the book Karate's History and Traditions written by Bruce A. Haines. Which was first published in 1968. Kosho Ryu Kempo Is spelled with an M. It goes on to explain Mitose's art. There is a revised edition currently available through Tuttle Publications.

kelly

 

[John Bishop]

Dear Mr. Bishop

I have given you the oppurtunity to call Mr. Juchnik and see a copy of Thomas Young's certificate. On That certificate ken/mpo is spelled with an M. It doesn't matter in various places in history it's spelled both ways. Many different reasons have been put forth as to why the difference in spelling. I have even heard that it was spelled with an n because because it was related to Mitose's buhddist name Kenposaikosho and the spelling with an n would be considered more personal. The fact is that it is spelled both ways.
Who Knows

kelly

So let me get this right. The certificate that James Mitose gave to Thomas Young has "Kempo" spelled with a "M". And then we can all see that the certificate that James Mitose gave to Bruce Juchnik has "Kenpo" spelled with a "N". So Mitose didn't even know how to spell Kenpo/Kempo?

And then I'm suppose to ask Mr. Juchnik for a copy of Thomas Young's certificate, so that I will know that Thomas Young was lying to me when he told me that James Mitose "always" spelled "Kenpo" with a "N"?

So then, it would only make sense that the certificates that Jiro Nakamura, Paul Yamaguichi, William Chow, Bobby Lowe, Arthur Keave, Rick Alemany, Eugene Sedeno, Arnold Golub, and Ray Arquilla received, all had "Kempo" spelled with a "M"? I don't think so.
You say Paul Yamaguichi is your friend. Have you seen his certificate from Mitose? If so, how did Mitose spell Kenpo/Kempo on that one?

 

[Mekugi]

As a note here, the Bubishi that Mr. McCarthy is writing about (the old Japanese document that includes illustrations, mind you) is likely a copy of a "White Crane Fist" document that made it's way to Okinawa. Mr. McCarthy focuses on this in his work, as it is the most probable source for the document. How it arrived in Okinawa, however, is a little more complicated.

Furthermore, at his seminars, Mr. McCarthy gives step by step instruction, analysis and interpretation in terms of the Japanese Kata and the Chinese "White Crane". From what I understand it is perhaps *the most* complete approach anyone has ever attempted regarding the outside influences on Okinawa martial arts.

If anyone is interested in this type of material, Mr. McCarthy does travel the world teaching his wares and is available for seminars and clinics.

Mr. McCarthy also heads the "International RyuKyu Karate Jutsu Reasearch Society" which is open for membership.
For more information, please check out:
http://www.society.webcentral.com.au/

NOTE: I don not have a connection to Patrick McCarthy, so I am not advertising for him. I thought it would be nice to post information on here for those interested, seeing that it came up in the thread of conversation.

-Russ

Hello,
One of the writings regarding Kempo coming from China to Okinawa to Japan is this, Patrick MCCarthy writes:
A sixth possibility is that the "Bubishi" was brought to Okinawa by Uechi Kanbun (1877-1948), the founder of Uechi-ryu. The Uechi-ryu karate-do tradition tells us Uechi went to Fuzhou (china) in 1897 where he ultimatly studied Guangdong Shaolin Temple Tiger Boxing directly under master Zhou Zihe (Shu Shiwa in Japanese).
Regards, Gary

 

[GAB]

Hello Mekugi,

Thanks for posting the web and the other information, I hold Mr Patrick McCarthy in high esteem. I have (like i said) purchased quit a few of his books and others on the topic of Motobu, Bubishi, and Okinawan Martial Arts.

I believe the information he is showing us through his translations is very good for understanding where/how the Martial arts we know, got across the big pond. Regards, Gary

 

[Karazenpo]

As I was reading these posts, very interesting to say the least and I also heard the one that the publisher confused Mitose's Buddhist name of Kenposaikosho for the name of the art but that's not why I'm posting. I know I'm a little sidetracked here but some thing 'rang a bell' in my head when I was reading one of the posts. It was on Mitose's education being weak. BINGO! We all can agree that there has been a long controversial battle as to either prove or disprove whether Mitose went to Japan at the age of 3-4 years and stayed throughout his formulative years, maybe about 15 years, so he comes back to Hawaii at 18-19 years old after receiving his education in Japan. Has anyone every checked school records in Hawaii to see if he attended school there during these years? Surely, there must be some record if he did. He would have had to enter a public school, wouldn't he? He appears to have some sort of education. These are public records. He must have had teachers and classmates? Has anyone ever explored this possibility?

 

[GAB]

Hello:
I have heard that James M. Mitose, went by various names in his life it would be interesting to be able to follow the trail, via the AKA.
They did not have the ability to hook them up as well in days gone by, but they must have done something about AKA. ie. interned, school, jail, going to Japan and returning, etc.
Maybe when he was on the mainland he might have used similar names, and they could be checked and cross checked? (back to hawaii)
Good thought, Professor.
Regards, Gary

 

[KenpoDave]

Dave mentioned on the San Jose Kenpo board, we are all from the same denomination of Kenpo, I like that and it is very correct. Being from James Mitose!
Regards, Gary

Actually, I said, "We are all denominations of the same art."

 

[Karazenpo]

Hello:
I have heard that James M. Mitose, went by various names in his life it would be interesting to be able to follow the trail, via the AKA.
They did not have the ability to hook them up as well in days gone by, but they must have done something about AKA. ie. interned, school, jail, going to Japan and returning, etc.
Maybe when he was on the mainland he might have used similar names, and they could be checked and cross checked? (back to hawaii)
Good thought, Professor.
Regards, Gary

Yes Gary, this is true. He did use an alias which has been recently uncovered by the forthcoming A&E investigation scheduled for release in early 2005. Perhaps the 'Mitose enigma' will be finally coming to a conclusion. However, the controversy will never end unless all are willing to keep an open mind and accept the facts as 'facts' whatever they may be. I have complete faith that Professor Jaime Abregana is conducting an unbiased, intensive and factual investigation in an honest attempt to seperate fact from fiction and present an historically accurate history of the birth of the martial arts in Hawaii. Some on this forum are concerned over 'bias' in this investigation. All I can tell you is Professor Abregana is a man of integrity but also remember he has nothing to gain and nothing to lose no matter what direction this investigation takes. His lineage is through Marino Tiwanik's C.H.A. 3 Kenpo which was a forerunner of Kajukenbo. I'll say something else about the Okinawan connection we have discussed on this forum. Professor Eugene Sedeno stated that Professor Chow taught forms in those early years. He recalls that the forms were Okinawan. Now, couple that with others who stated Mitose practiced Naihanchi Shodan. Sijo Emperado stated he recalls the elders of the time saying the kenpo was Okinawan in origin but never heard any facts to back up that belief. Again, as a history major I can tell you, all history, world & U.S., has controversies and inaccuracies but hopefully all the major questions of Mitose's background will finally be answered.

 

[GAB]

Dave,

Thank you, Gary

 

[Mekugi]

OK...I don't believe that someone would have a Buddhist (Bukkyo) name of "Kenposaikosho"; I suppose it could happen, but I would like to see the proof at the Terra where that name would be registered.

Secondly, the Hepburn system has been around since the turn of the 20th century for romanizing the Japanese language. If he was educated in Japan, it certainly didn't sink in at all because the little rule that follows the "m" and "n" is obvious. As far as his English went, he seems to have been very capable of writing letters on his own and he had at least some mastery of the language. I would reason that he wanted to call it "kenpo" for his own reasons, and not because of being illiterate.

As I was reading these posts, very interesting to say the least and I also heard the one that the publisher confused Mitose's Buddhist name of Kenposaikosho for the name of the art but that's not why I'm posting. I know I'm a little sidetracked here but some thing 'rang a bell' in my head when I was reading one of the posts. It was on Mitose's education being weak. BINGO! We all can agree that there has been a long controversial battle as to either prove or disprove whether Mitose went to Japan at the age of 3-4 years and stayed throughout his formulative years, maybe about 15 years, so he comes back to Hawaii at 18-19 years old after receiving his education in Japan. Has anyone every checked school records in Hawaii to see if he attended school there during these years? Surely, there must be some record if he did. He would have had to enter a public school, wouldn't he? He appears to have some sort of education. These are public records. He must have had teachers and classmates? Has anyone ever explored this possibility?

 

[bzarnett]

Although we all talk about Kenpo or Kempo, there are actually additional spellings found in various books depending on when the initial translation was done in the 20th century. Funakoshi's book includes a spelling of Kenpo with very specific accents that would render linguistically both spellings incorrect.

In addition, Japanese-to-English and English-to-Japanese dictionaries sometimes spell Kenpo differently as well (print versions).

In Ed Parkers Infinite Insights book, he makes comments that it was Chow who spelt it with an n versus m to make a distinction. Saying that, the first English translation of Funakoshi's book was available in the late 40s I believe and spelt Kenpo with an n although the entire word was heavily accented.

---
Bryan Zarnett
Sphere of Influence
www.SphereOfInfluence.ca

 

[GAB]

Hello,
Hello:

Least we forget, James Mitose was first and foremost a con man.

That said I still feel he has a solid place in history, we cannot get around that whether we spell it with an M or an N.

I also think this will prove without a doubt, the genuis of the various Major players, in the development of Kenpo and Kempo.

I think he liked playing the ends against the middle and back again. Part of his warped sense of stability. I am truly looking forward to the A&E Doc, the people who unravel this, need all the help they can get.

If what the Professor said is true, That the persons are Honorable, (I have no reason to doubt the statement.)

I wish them good luck. This in my mind is sort of like having a different set of indivduals (commission) to review it, put it into its proper context, along with the other 4 parts that will be aired.
Regards, Gary

 

[Karazenpo]

Hello,
Hello:

Least we forget, James Mitose was first and foremost a con man.

That said I still feel he has a solid place in history, we cannot get around that whether we spell it with an M or an N.

I also think this will prove without a doubt, the genuis of the various Major players, in the development of Kenpo and Kempo.

I think he liked playing the ends against the middle and back again. Part of his warped sense of stability. I am truly looking forward to the A&E Doc, the people who unravel this, need all the help they can get.

If what the Professor said is true, That the persons are Honorable, (I have no reason to doubt the statement.)

I wish them good luck. This in my mind is sort of like having a different set of indivduals (commission) to review it, put it into its proper context, along with the other 4 parts that will be aired.
Regards, Gary

Correct Gary, regardless of his character, he does have a solid place in history and it is soooooooooo obvious why some still insist on cutting him out of their lineage. I said this once, I'll say it again and for the 100th time, I will stand by it and dispute it with anyone. Their are currently 3 Key figures in the Hawaiin-derived Kenpo and they are: Mitose/Chow/Emperado. Bottom line! If you studied with Gascon, Pesare, Cerio or Villari, you're connected to Emperado who is connected to Chow and Mitose. If you studied under Parker, you're connected to Chow who is connected to Mitose. If you studied under Chow, you're connected to Mitose. If you studied with Tracy, you're connected to Chow & Mitose. If you studied with Thomas Young, you're connected to Mitose. Redundant, I know, but do I need to go on? The question is not the above but the question or controversy is who did Mitose train under? After that, whether some like it or not, it's etched in stone. Man, why don't the Democrats just cut Richard Nixon out of the lineage of the presidency because he resigned in disgrace over the Watergate scandel! Hell, that should negate any positive contributions he accomplished as president, right? or maybe the Republicans feel Bill Clinton's ethics, character and morals are definitely in question after his impeachment, so, while we're at it, let's cut him out of the lineage too, despite all his positive accomplishments. See what I mean? I am not a fan of 'Mitose, the man', he could have been another Charles Manson (hypothetically), but I'm a firm believer in the phrase, 'give the devil his due' and it is totally historically innaccurate to cut him from YOUR lineage because you don't like the man, sorry, he was there, he was the catalyst that started this kenpo thing. Was he a good, solid martial artist of his day, some say yes, some say no. I don't know either, never saw him do anything, never saw a lot of people do anything but that doesn't matter either because his decendants have certainly proved themselves to be great martial artists! Isn't the goal of every teacher is to train their students in the hopes they surpass their chief instructor someday? or is it all ego and b.s.? Again, I wish not to argue with anyone but we have rely on the facts as best we can when discussing history and whether Mitose trained in Japan, Hawaii, both or was self taught from a book and a few lessons does not negate the FACT of his position in history and the lineage of the many kenpo offshoots we have today. Respectfully submitted, Professor Joe Shuras

 

[The Kai]

Here's is a rather far out theory.....

It was the interaction between Miose, Chow and some of the senior students (i.e. Emperado) that gave rise to Kenpo. In my little humble Dojo we acknowledge both Miose and Chow. Other infuencial figures (Parker, Emperado etc.) are acknowledged (BTW your lineage comes through Mr. Alemany).
Currently love him or not Hanshi Juchnik is a hell of a organizer, and leader fot the Kenpo arts. yes, he has his own adgenda (so do I). As a leader he is a Lighting rod for all good and bad comments.
Mr Chapel - I have not had the opurtunity to work with him and do look forward to doing so. He too is a leader
Perhaps two strong forces do not co-exist well?
In defense of Hanshi Juchnik< I;m not doubting Me. Chapel's comments, but I have seen hanshi do Kata and he is damm good. So maybe things change? Maybe Mr. Chapel saw Hanshi at a point of re-educating his motions (from Tracy's Kenpo to a Japanese "flavor"). I don't know I was'nt there, Mr Chapel is highly regarded-but I wanted to put my 2 cents out there
Here's my outlook True Martial Artists are a rare breed (less than %5 of population or so), Discount the fools, and Mcdojo spawned Black Belts and the number becomes rarer. kenpo is a awesome martial Art, let's work together to get Kenpo organizes, loosely organized and erecognized!~
Todd

 

[Kenpomachine]

EPAK people Mitose is like the grandfather who existed but never showed up. Yes, he could have taught Chow many things, but the grandson saught his kwoledge elsewhere, besides what he learnt from his dad. Plus, this is not a bloodline.

 

[The Kai]

[besides what he learnt from his dad}
True, very true

 

[Karazenpo]

EPAK people Mitose is like the grandfather who existed but never showed up. Yes, he could have taught Chow many things, but the grandson saught his kwoledge elsewhere, besides what he learnt from his dad. Plus, this is not a bloodline.

In all due respect, there it is again. Some perpetuate myths of Mitose, other Chow. Who ever said Chow studied under his father? Yes, I've read it too on the net and in magazine articles. His father, from everything I have researched was no Kung Fu master and taught him nothing. Chow stated he learned secret techniques of Kung Fu from his father and grandfather through 'DREAMS'...... Yes, this is fact, as stated in an interview with Adriano Emperado, not to mention other sources have also quoted Chow on this. If anyone has verfication that will hold up to scrutiny that he did, please let me know and I will defend it. Believe me, this is in no way discrediting Professor Chow as far as his legendary fighting prowess & knowledge goes but c'ome on, if Hanshi Juchnik posted that Mitose studied kenpo form his grandfather in Japan through 'dreams' everyone would be all over him, true? The only other connection we have of Chow's training with another instructor is Professor Henry S. Okazaki in Danzan ryu Jui Jitsu, however, we can also make a connection with Mitose and Okazaki, no paper trail from either one of them, though. I attempted to track if he went to some kwoons in Hawaii in his pursuit of the Chinese arts but I was told during that era in Hawaii, there was much prejudice and he would not have been welcome. Chow was not full Chinese and would have been treated the same way as Bruce Lee was in San Fransico in the 60's. This is what I have been told anyway. The only paper trail from Chow is his certificate signed by Thomas Young, Mitose's first black belt. Techniques shown in Mitose's book, irregardless whether it has been plagarized or not, also show up in EPAK, Gm. Robert Trias' Shuri-te (Okinawan Shorei-ryu Kenpo Karate), Chow's Kempo and other Hawaiian-derived Kenpo/Kempo/Kajukenbo systems. Since Mr. Parker never learned anything from Mitose then it most likely came from Chow. The first recognition of such techniques of Mr. Parker's were in his early book of (1960) entitled Kenpo Karate: Law of the Fist and Empty Hand. Others on this forum have stated that specific techniques from this book and Mitose's have survived today in EPAK, perhaps modified but none the less the basis. Chow was an 'uke' in that book (Mitose's), so yes, I would have to say Mitose taught Chow 'some things'. You see, I'm just attempting to get away from any personal bias, feelings, alliegances or whatever, and conduct a factual account of history. I have asked specific sources on this question on Chow's father teaching him Kung Fu for a verification and documentation but have been ignored. Silence sometimes says it all! So, I guess I got my answer. Respectfully submitted, Professor Joe Shuras

 

[Kenpomachine]

Well, you misunderstood me completely. That was just a comparison between lineage (Mitose-Chow-Parker) and a family. In this example, the father was Chow and the grandson is Parker. So it was the grandson the one who sought kwnoledge besides what he learnt from his father, not Chow (in this comparison Chow's dad would be Mitose). That's why I said also that it was not a bloodline I was talking about.

I thought it was clear, but I guess my english is not that good, ha.

So here it is again, missing verb included
"EPAK people thinks Mitose is like the grandfather who existed but never showed up. Yes, he (Mitose) could have taught Chow many things, but the grandson (Parker) saught his kwoledge elsewhere, besides what he (Parker) learnt from his dad (Chow).

 

[Karazenpo]

Well, you misunderstood me completely. That was just a comparison between lineage (Mitose-Chow-Parker) and a family. In this example, the father was Chow and the grandson is Parker. So it was the grandson the one who sought kwnoledge besides what he learnt from his father, not Chow (in this comparison Chow's dad would be Mitose). That's why I said also that it was not a bloodline I was talking about.

I thought it was clear, but I guess my english is not that good, ha.

So here it is again, missing verb included
"EPAK people thinks Mitose is like the grandfather who existed but never showed up. Yes, he (Mitose) could have taught Chow many things, but the grandson (Parker) saught his kwoledge elsewhere, besides what he (Parker) learnt from his dad (Chow).

Sorry about that, I had a rough day!, lol. It's probably that I'm so used to that position being taken by some when it comes to Mitose and lineage that I didn't read deep enough into your post. Again, I apologize for misinterpreting it. After reading it again, you did a good job, it was me that screwed up. Respectfully, Professor Joe Shuras

PS: I do stand by what I stated in the post and welcome other people's insights.

 

[Mekugi]

Well, despite the spellings you find in various books, phonetically you will hear this word pronounced keMpo in Japanese every time, regardless of what any cheese-smelling whitebread like myself would say.

Although we all talk about Kenpo or Kempo, there are actually additional spellings found in various books depending on when the initial translation was done in the 20th century. Funakoshi's book includes a spelling of Kenpo with very specific accents that would render linguistically both spellings incorrect.

In addition, Japanese-to-English and English-to-Japanese dictionaries sometimes spell Kenpo differently as well (print versions).

In Ed Parkers Infinite Insights book, he makes comments that it was Chow who spelt it with an n versus m to make a distinction. Saying that, the first English translation of Funakoshi's book was available in the late 40s I believe and spelt Kenpo with an n although the entire word was heavily accented.

---
Bryan Zarnett
Sphere of Influence
www.SphereOfInfluence.ca