Demonstration of effects from a strike to carotid sinus (St - 9) - Video
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BlackCatBonz
Master Black Belt
there is fight footage of arlovski vs silvia floating around.
in a birds eye view replay, it is pretty clear that silvia hits arlovski with what looks like a pretty weak misplaced punch that happens to land on the side of arlovski's neck, what happens next is arlovski looking awful sleepy and falling to the mat while silvia lays blows to his head.
in a birds eye view replay, it is pretty clear that silvia hits arlovski with what looks like a pretty weak misplaced punch that happens to land on the side of arlovski's neck, what happens next is arlovski looking awful sleepy and falling to the mat while silvia lays blows to his head.
I do not believe that most UFC/PRIDE fighters actually target the side of the Neck as that is illegal in their sport. However miscues and near misses happen all of the time and therefore it is bound to happen every now and then.
Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com
Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com
BlackCatBonz
Master Black Belt
Brian R. VanCise said:
I completely agree, even in the sport of boxing there are numerous examples of guys getting knocked out by weak punches that the receiver hardly felt, or the thrower getting lucky.
Law of averages, simply put. If you are striking away at someones head eventually you will connect and possibly even connect with their neck.
Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com
Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com
To me the pimp seam quite under influence. He had troubles walking before the strike. Even more after, of course. The Pimp made several mistakes. He wanted to fight when everybody else, even the prostitute try to discourage him. He went straight to the guy. But most importantly, he didn't seam to notice several things :
-The guy was not alone.
-The guy and his friends were wearing matching sport trousers and white T-shirt with the karate logo on them.Although it is no proof that they migh be karate experts, it clues I would ponder a little before doing anything.
Obviously the Pimp was stupid and drunk. IMHO he was looking for it.
Now the strike migh have work the same way on a normal guy. I don't know.
But I disagree with DavidCC about the pressure points. Sure a lot of people find them useless in fight. For the one who worked with them you know their efficiency in training. My wrists and arms are still feeling the one we worked two weeks ago. And it is very true that most of them are hard to find and precision is not current in street fights. But my own master had a clinic with another master of our federation and during their sparing and grapling this guy was able to reach precisely several pressure points with his thumbs or toes. So it is doable even against other veteran fighters.
And I know this is a recurent subject in Black belt magasine. So even the experts disagree on this. I think you think pressure ponts are useless until you fight someone who know how to use them.
-The guy was not alone.
-The guy and his friends were wearing matching sport trousers and white T-shirt with the karate logo on them.Although it is no proof that they migh be karate experts, it clues I would ponder a little before doing anything.
Obviously the Pimp was stupid and drunk. IMHO he was looking for it.
Now the strike migh have work the same way on a normal guy. I don't know.
But I disagree with DavidCC about the pressure points. Sure a lot of people find them useless in fight. For the one who worked with them you know their efficiency in training. My wrists and arms are still feeling the one we worked two weeks ago. And it is very true that most of them are hard to find and precision is not current in street fights. But my own master had a clinic with another master of our federation and during their sparing and grapling this guy was able to reach precisely several pressure points with his thumbs or toes. So it is doable even against other veteran fighters.
And I know this is a recurent subject in Black belt magasine. So even the experts disagree on this. I think you think pressure ponts are useless until you fight someone who know how to use them.
Stephen Daedalus
White Belt
Speaking from a medical perspective rather than a martial one, I should point out that a strike to the caratoid sinus is effective because of the brief but intense reaction that can be elicited from the Vagus Nerve. It is the impact on this nerve and brief disruption in virtually the ENTIRE parasympathetic nervous system. You can floor someone with a strike there, although as others have mentioned it is transitory.
More importantly you should know that (especially in older individuals) it is possible to dislodge a clot with a direct hit to the CS. Needless to say, while rare, this would be a very unfortunate and deadly consequence. It is ALSO important to note that with a good hit to the Vagus nerve in the wrong person, you can discover other exciting flaws in their anatomy, such as a potentially lethal arrythmia.
So, do yourselves and friends a favour and DON'T practice this on people, even drunken idiots and friends. Remember that the line "but we were just playing around" sounds a lot like "manslaughter" to a prosecutor.
Edit: Really, this is not a "pressure" point in the traditional sense that you'd use. You're talking about one of the most important and far reaching cranial nerves that regulates the sympathetic motor functions for every part of your body that you care to name (except above the neck that is). Earlier in a post a woman talked about how worried a doctor was about self-massage of the CS, and I could not agree with that doctor more. At the least you could pass out (vasovagal syncopy anyone?) which I suppose is "desirable" effect in a martial art, but you can do terribly unfortunate things to the nerve, the brain, the blood vessels, and of course, you ARE striking at a VERY weak point in the body. That kind of strike has no place outside of a fight for your life, in which case you had better hope your assailant doesn't have a muscular neck or any sense of defense. Remember, it is instinctive to protect the face and throat, which is why knife fighters often feint to the face with their off hand to open a way for a knife strike. MOST people will at least deflect your strike out of animal instinct, and if they are so intoxicated or highly trained that they DON'T flinch away or block... well then we're back to it being dangerous for your target OR you.
More importantly you should know that (especially in older individuals) it is possible to dislodge a clot with a direct hit to the CS. Needless to say, while rare, this would be a very unfortunate and deadly consequence. It is ALSO important to note that with a good hit to the Vagus nerve in the wrong person, you can discover other exciting flaws in their anatomy, such as a potentially lethal arrythmia.
So, do yourselves and friends a favour and DON'T practice this on people, even drunken idiots and friends. Remember that the line "but we were just playing around" sounds a lot like "manslaughter" to a prosecutor.
Edit: Really, this is not a "pressure" point in the traditional sense that you'd use. You're talking about one of the most important and far reaching cranial nerves that regulates the sympathetic motor functions for every part of your body that you care to name (except above the neck that is). Earlier in a post a woman talked about how worried a doctor was about self-massage of the CS, and I could not agree with that doctor more. At the least you could pass out (vasovagal syncopy anyone?) which I suppose is "desirable" effect in a martial art, but you can do terribly unfortunate things to the nerve, the brain, the blood vessels, and of course, you ARE striking at a VERY weak point in the body. That kind of strike has no place outside of a fight for your life, in which case you had better hope your assailant doesn't have a muscular neck or any sense of defense. Remember, it is instinctive to protect the face and throat, which is why knife fighters often feint to the face with their off hand to open a way for a knife strike. MOST people will at least deflect your strike out of animal instinct, and if they are so intoxicated or highly trained that they DON'T flinch away or block... well then we're back to it being dangerous for your target OR you.
kaizasosei
Master Black Belt
This is from wikipedia. I just typed in carotid sinus and found this:
Carotid sinus reflex death
Carotid sinus reflex death is a disputed mechanism of death in which manual stimulation of the carotid sinus allegedly causes strong vagus nerve impulses leading to terminal cardiac arrest. Carotid sinus reflex death has been pointed out as a possible cause of death in cases of strangulation and hanging, but such deductions remain controversial. Studies have however suggested that the carotid sinus reflex can be a contributing factor in other mechanisms of death by reducing blood pressure and heart rate, especially in the elderly or in people suffering from carotid sinus hypersensitivity. A carotid massage can also possibly dislodge a thrombus, or some plaque. This could lead to any number of life threatening effects, including, but not limited to pulmonary embolism, heart attack, and stroke. All of these are potentially lethal. [4]
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If you want further proof, get a friend to give you a substantialy strong chop to the area when you are not expecting it. I garantee, it need not be that hard of a chop, but you will see some stars.. otherwise, if you are not in good physical shape, it might be better to avoid fooling around with the bodys weak spots.
I know that there is truth in this. I once got chopped when not expecting it in the least, and i did see some stars. It made me think that had the strike been stronger, i might have passed out.
In certain other training exercises, we would strike each other there over and over again. However, i think if you are bracing for it and aware, it is less likely to have that effect as when it come suddenly to shock the system.
j
Carotid sinus reflex death
Carotid sinus reflex death is a disputed mechanism of death in which manual stimulation of the carotid sinus allegedly causes strong vagus nerve impulses leading to terminal cardiac arrest. Carotid sinus reflex death has been pointed out as a possible cause of death in cases of strangulation and hanging, but such deductions remain controversial. Studies have however suggested that the carotid sinus reflex can be a contributing factor in other mechanisms of death by reducing blood pressure and heart rate, especially in the elderly or in people suffering from carotid sinus hypersensitivity. A carotid massage can also possibly dislodge a thrombus, or some plaque. This could lead to any number of life threatening effects, including, but not limited to pulmonary embolism, heart attack, and stroke. All of these are potentially lethal. [4]
-----------------------------------------------
If you want further proof, get a friend to give you a substantialy strong chop to the area when you are not expecting it. I garantee, it need not be that hard of a chop, but you will see some stars.. otherwise, if you are not in good physical shape, it might be better to avoid fooling around with the bodys weak spots.
I know that there is truth in this. I once got chopped when not expecting it in the least, and i did see some stars. It made me think that had the strike been stronger, i might have passed out.
In certain other training exercises, we would strike each other there over and over again. However, i think if you are bracing for it and aware, it is less likely to have that effect as when it come suddenly to shock the system.
j
Stephen Daedalus
White Belt
Thank you Kaizasosei, this is a less confirmed but still very real risk factor. I suppose on one hand it DOES lend credence to "killing blows", but in the modern world it's more important to remember the danger. An earlier poster (much earlier, I only realized after posting that I ressurected an OLD thread sorry!!!) talked about the drop in BP that initiates the "faint" or "Vasovagal Syncopy" is a result of a precipitous and brief drop in BP. If someone has a fault in their anatomy however, or a pre-existing medical condition, I'm sure all of you can see how such an event carries a (relatively small) but very real risk. Ask any doctor or ER nurse and mention the H's and T's" and they'll list "Hypotension" as one of the H's. Those H's and T's are conditions that can lead to Ventricular Tachycardia or Fibrilation, and therefore, to death and usually unsuccessful attempts to resuscitate.
Of course, this is a martial arts forum, and I can imagine that on the practical usage scale for Krav Maga and some others, this is a totally valid thing to utilize. It also highlights just how valuble a knowledge of human anatomy and the relationship between various system is a key part of life in general, and martial arts in particular. Don't just look at a chart of "pressure points", get out a copy of Grey's Anatomy (the show was named after the book for the record) that is THE bible of anatomical references and a lovely piece of art. Aikido and Judo practictioners already study the body's weakness relating to joints and motion, and physics in regards to shifting momentum and forces. It just further goes to show that Martial Arts can contain virtually every aspect of life and exploration if you chose that.
OP
OP
http://www.myvideofight.com/UFC/Evans-vs-Machida-Video
Check it out. Machida clearly knocks out Evans with a strike to the carotid sinus.
You need to have strike points in your arsenal. It is absolutely clear that a straight punch landed on S-9 and he went down. There's a reason so many of the blows in kata fall on S-9.
Check it out. Machida clearly knocks out Evans with a strike to the carotid sinus.
You need to have strike points in your arsenal. It is absolutely clear that a straight punch landed on S-9 and he went down. There's a reason so many of the blows in kata fall on S-9.
