Demonstration of effects from a strike to carotid sinus (St - 9) - Video

[Makalakumu]

That video would never be accepted as proof in a scientific peer review journal.

And you know this because you regularly read peer reviewed journals? Especialy ones that deal with the medical effects caused by martial arts moves?

I happen to regularly read peer reviewed journals. There are lots of different types of evidence that are used in these journals...including anecdotes that have been videotaped.

Again, if you have evidence that is contrary to the measured effects of applying pressure to baroreceptors, I encourage you to provide it. You seem to have a very strong opinion on this and I'm curious if its supported by anything.

 

[BlackSheep]

I encourage you to provide it. You seem to have a very strong opinion on this and I'm curious if its supported by anything.

I’m the skeptic; you’re the one making the claim. The burden of proof is on you, not me.

 

[Makalakumu]

I’m the skeptic; you’re the one making the claim. The burden of proof is on you, not me.

That is fair. However, IMHO, I feel that any reasonable standard of proof has been met. If we still disagree on this, I'm okay with that.

In order to acheive a higher standard, here is what I suggest...have someone mark the point out on your body and then blast you there with a strike. See what happens. We are dealing with a repeatable exeriment and it should work on everyone, right? I'm serious. Give it a go, because that is the only way to acheive a higher standard of proof then what I've already given.

You brought up Dillman and I feel like I should address that. Just to set the record straight, I am not a student of his lineage. And the fact that he went off the deep end with kyusho does not negate the medically proven fact that certain areas of the body are vulnerable to attack. The accupressure terminology may be throwing people off and I've considered dropping it for that reason. Why not just refer to this point as a baroreceptor? The answer is that I think that referencing the body like this gives some cultural information.

 

[BlackCatBonz]

I think that a good experiment to try is simply taking your blood pressure, massage the point, take it again, massage it some more.......see what kind of results you get with differing massage pressures..........then get a friend to hit it.
sounds like fun, no?

 

[BlackSheep]

I think that a good experiment to try is simply taking your blood pressure, massage the point, take it again, massage it some more.......see what kind of results you get with differing massage pressures..........then get a friend to hit it.
sounds like fun, no?

Why don’t you do that and video it for us to watch?

You guys keep suggesting that I should try and prove your argument, that’s your job!

 

[rutherford]

You guys keep suggesting that I should try and prove your argument, that’s your job!

It's not an arguement. It's only a discussion because upnorthkyosa is nice enough to humor you.

He is the instructor, and this is his hosted forum for his school. The benefit of the doubt is definitely with him.

 

[BlackSheep]

I watched the vid again and it looks like the back of ***** forearm hits ***** jaw. This is what caused the KO, that and a lot of alcohol. My explanation is just as good as yours. The problem is that you can’t tell much from the video.

 

[BlackSheep]

He is the instructor, and this is his hosted forum for his school. The benefit of the doubt is definitely with him.

Appeal to authority

 

[7starmantis]

Why don’t you do that and video it for us to watch?

You guys keep suggesting that I should try and prove your argument, that’s your job!

Yes because you would certainly accept as proof and fact a video filmed by someone else (who believes in that "stuff")

7sm

 

[Makalakumu]

Why don’t you do that and video it for us to watch?

You guys keep suggesting that I should try and prove your argument, that’s your job!

If I were to videotape myself doing this, it would meet a lesser standard of proof. The simple fact is that there are plenty of vids on the internet of people doing this, but you can't really know until you try it yourself.

Blackcatbonz's experiment would also be a good one...and much safer then the one I indicated.

Experiments in science should be repeatable by anyone, including skeptics, who should, in the spirit of honest inquiry, be willing to repeat experiments.

Failure to do so defeats the purpose of scientific inquiry.

 

[Makalakumu]

I watched the vid again and it looks like the back of whities' forearm hits blackies’ jaw. This is what caused the KO, that and a lot of alcohol. My explanation is just as good as yours. The problem is that you can’t tell much from the video.

I don't think its possible to tell whether this person is intoxicated from the video. That is clearly different then the strike, the location of the strike, and the after effects of the strike. However, if he was intoxicated with a depressent, that would make him more suseptible to the effects of a sudden lowering of blood pressure.

The direction of this strike to this vital area is up and in, so often contact is mistake for under the jaw. However, if you slow this video down and examine it closely, one can see contact is made, under the jaw, on the neck.

 

[BlackCatBonz]

Why don’t you do that and video it for us to watch?

You guys keep suggesting that I should try and prove your argument, that’s your job!

I dont need to prove anything to you.
you need to prove it to yourself.
If I was to videotape myself, anyone else that watches it could simply say i was acting for the camera.
I've given enough shiatsu treatments to know the effects of carotid sinus stimulation.
I've been choked enough to know that it isn't simply the brain being starved of blood.

 

[Blotan Hunka]

Actually I think thats a Brachial Plexus Origin stun shot.

 

[Edmund BlackAdder]

Pressure point stuffs all fake. If it was real, they'd be doing it in the UFC on Spike TV and PPV, dontchaknow?

 

[Flying Crane]

Blackcatbonz's experiment would also be a good one...and much safer then the one I indicated.

Yeah, but I like your idea better.

 

[RoninPimp]

Pressure point stuffs all fake. If it was real, they'd be doing it in the UFC on Spike TV and PPV, dontchaknow?

-Pretty much. If it works they'd use it.

 

[Edmund BlackAdder]

-Pretty much. If it works they'd use it.

That's why they don't allow eye gouges, finger locks, small joint manipulation, etc. And everyone knows that "real" fights have time limits, allow for ref stopages, weight classes and "no touch zones". Very real stuff indeed. But, I am drifting here. Think I'll pick this up elsewhere.

 

[Flying Crane]

well, I did a quick search of my own on Yahoo for Carotid Sinus. The description of the location and the effects of massage certainly give me the impression that what Upnorth suggests could be what happened in the video. Do we know for sure from just watching the video? Of course not, and Upnorth was decent enough to admit that, and concede that there could be another explanation. But what he is describing is clearly NOT mystic mumbo-jumbo, it is based in solid medical science, and the information is clearly there for those who wish to open their eyes and their minds and look at it.

Being sceptical and playing the Devil's Advocate is one thing, but arguing for the sake of arguing is another. Sometimes people just refuse to open their mind to something, for no good reason.

 

[Carol]

Six years ago, I started experiencing Supraventricular Tachichardia events, and had a perform Cartoid Sinus massage on me...including encouraging me to perform the same manoever on myself should an event happen. The manoeuver can stop SVT events, which saves the patient from being administered a node blocking drug to the heart.

The ER docs that checked me out after each event all got very very skittish at the idea of me performing Carotid Sinus massage on my self. Why? If I press to hard, that would cause me even more problems.

What John says makes sense to me.

 

[green meanie]

I honestly don't know what exactly is going on in that video -nor do I care. I liked it anyway. Thanks!