Death sentence on television?

[Archangel M]

And I think that many of you are full of needless pessimism and far to quick to accept death as an option.

 

[ballen0351]

I have never advocated having abortions because you are poor, you picked that subject. I'm amazed however that you think so many of these situations are merely temporary and don't affect people in the long run. You have an extreme case of false optomism.

I didn’t say they won’t affect you mentally but it’s not worth dying over. There is nothing worth dying over in this world to me except my kids Id gladly lay my life down to save my kids but other than that life is too good. Even on my worst days I think if my birth mom made it all the way to that clinic that day Id not even be here. For All the bad I’ve seen and done in my life I’ve seen just as much good. For all the dead children I’ve pulled out of car, Rape victims I’ve interviewed, Body’s I’ve stepped over, fights I’ve been in, the times I’ve been shot at, watched my friend get gunned down 25 yards from me in a training accident, loose several friends in a Helicopter accident. I’ve also had my sons hug me and say "I love you daddy", looked at my wife on our wedding day, Watched my kids be born, Hung pictures on my desk my daughters colored for me, Had a person I talked out of blowing his brains out find me a year later to thank me, Found a missing child and reunited her with her family, Had a woman hooked on Heroin for 15 years send me a card stating she been clean for 6 months thanks to me. So yes maybe I do see the good in alot because I have seen so much bad I choose not to dwell on it. I would not consider it false optomism.

 

[granfire]

So now you want to kill old people and babies? Hunting season on anyone under 9 months and over 70 right?

I don't hunt. So why do you jump down my throat?

Maybe you are too young to have seen a much loved person to become a living shell, not even a shadow of themselves. I have seen it twice. And I find it would have been much more merciful and dignified if either woman could have been spared such 'existence'

As to your 'killing babies' kick:

I do understand where you come from.
But you still fail to see that you will never have the inside knowledge about what it means to be pregnant.

You approach the problem with tunnel vision. In a perfect world you might be right. But we are not living in Utopia, people are not perfect.
There are close to 7 billion people on this planet. About half of them female. that makes it to around 3.5 billion different situations on if or why not to have a child or not to.

One of the more popular views in this world, dominated by men, is that the bun is to be carried in the oven, no matter what. But then again, in many parts of the world woman is still regarded as chattel, a lesser being. Burns the male ego to not have a say so about the bun. You think it's sexist, I am sure, but smarter people than myself have analyzed and come to the conclusion that much of the worlds violent problems root in deep hatred for women...when I get a chance I will dig up the source for you.

bill's '9-drop-walk' theory is ridiculous. Truly spoken from the perspective of the absolute ignorant.

Also, in the perspective of the 'adoption clinic' The problem of those children are not that mother does not want them. Maybe spend some time with the social workers that deal with those who fall through the cracks. Born to women who made all the wrong choices, leaving these little lives with more problems than most people can handle.

And then there is the little fact that there are next to no adoptive homes for those unwanted babies that have outgrown the cute phase.

So, unless there is a serious argument and not silly histrionics....

 

[Tez3]

Your position is yours alone, you cannot make judgemant calls on others lives. A victim of a bully or a paedophile may well believe life isn't worth living as numerous suicides have shown. You can't understand no more than I can what life is like for some people, for many it is a living hell and suicide is the only way out.
You may have done many things but you are not the only one, many here can say as much if not more than you. It doesn't change how life is for some and why they feel they cannot live any longer or why they feel they cannot bear a child. However you view life and however lucky you are, you have no right to speak for anyone other than yourself.

 

[ballen0351]

I don't hunt. So why do you jump down my throat?

Maybe you are too young to have seen a much loved person to become a living shell, not even a shadow of themselves. I have seen it twice. And I find it would have been much more merciful and dignified if either woman could have been spared such 'existence'

As to your 'killing babies' kick:

I do understand where you come from.
But you still fail to see that you will never have the inside knowledge about what it means to be pregnant.

You approach the problem with tunnel vision. In a perfect world you might be right. But we are not living in Utopia, people are not perfect.
There are close to 7 billion people on this planet. About half of them female. that makes it to around 3.5 billion different situations on if or why not to have a child or not to.

One of the more popular views in this world, dominated by men, is that the bun is to be carried in the oven, no matter what. But then again, in many parts of the world woman is still regarded as chattel, a lesser being. Burns the male ego to not have a say so about the bun. You think it's sexist, I am sure, but smarter people than myself have analyzed and come to the conclusion that much of the worlds violent problems root in deep hatred for women...when I get a chance I will dig up the source for you.

bill's '9-drop-walk' theory is ridiculous. Truly spoken from the perspective of the absolute ignorant.

Also, in the perspective of the 'adoption clinic' The problem of those children are not that mother does not want them. Maybe spend some time with the social workers that deal with those who fall through the cracks. Born to women who made all the wrong choices, leaving these little lives with more problems than most people can handle.

And then there is the little fact that there are next to no adoptive homes for those unwanted babies that have outgrown the cute phase.

So, unless there is a serious argument and not silly histrionics....

Didnt jump down your throat just saying what you said in a different way.

And I have seen it. I watched a former Marine Corps Sgt Major go from a strong stone faced man to a frail shell that needed nurses to change his diaper. Even with all that its not my place to say he should be put down like a stray cat. If he decided it was time for him to go I would support him its his life not mine.

I feel the same about the unborn baby. Its his life he should make the choice not the mother. To say times are tough for woman so they should be able to get abortions is just a stupid argument. #1 if they are that tough maybe they should not be having sex and working on taking care of their problems. The times are not so tough that they are not able to enjoy life and have sex.
#2 If you actually believe that argument that times are to tough for kids then why stop at the unborn are times not hard for a mother of a 3 year old why can she have the option to kill a baby?
Its a false argument to say she has a reason and you dont know what it is.

 

[ballen0351]

Your position is yours alone, you cannot make judgemant calls on others lives. A victim of a bully or a paedophile may well believe life isn't worth living as numerous suicides have shown. You can't understand no more than I can what life is like for some people, for many it is a living hell and suicide is the only way out.
You may have done many things but you are not the only one, many here can say as much if not more than you. It doesn't change how life is for some and why they feel they cannot live any longer or why they feel they cannot bear a child. However you view life and however lucky you are, you have no right to speak for anyone other than yourself.

Im not arguing against suicide. Suicide is your choice what choice did the baby have in an abortion?

If you feel your life is too bad to bear a child then dont have sex and you wont have too

 

[Archangel M]

If this argument is going to deliniate into a "Life Cult" vs "Death Cult"....I am happy with the side I have chosen.

 

[Tez3]

Im not arguing against suicide. Suicide is your choice what choice did the baby have in an abortion?

If you feel your life is too bad to bear a child then dont have sex and you wont have too

It's so simple for you isnt it? There aren't any issues that aren't clear to you, nothing is grey all is black and white ie 'do as I say and everything will be fine'. You aren't open to understanding any woman's point of view.

With you it's all sick and ill people must be made to live despite their own choices, no one was advocating bumping people off, just saying that sometimes a life can be no life. All women must be made to carry their babies. All unwanted children must be adopted and all women must abstain from sex whether they are given the choice to or not if they don't want a baby.
As Granfire said there are approx 3.5 billion women in the world do you speak for every single one of them? do they have to obey you too?

 

[ballen0351]

It's so simple for you isnt it? There aren't any issues that aren't clear to you, nothing is grey all is black and white ie 'do as I say and everything will be fine'. You aren't open to understanding any woman's point of view.

With you it's all sick and ill people must be made to live despite their own choices, no one was advocating bumping people off, just saying that sometimes a life can be no life. All women must be made to carry their babies. All unwanted children must be adopted and all women must abstain from sex whether they are given the choice to or not if they don't want a baby.
As Granfire said there are approx 3.5 billion women in the world do you speak for every single one of them? do they have to obey you too?

life or death is black and white
I don't speak for any of the trillions of woman I speak for the dead children

 

[Archangel M]

Comparing terminally ill people who may want to die to aborting babies is a false comparison. It's like comparing suicide to murder.

 

[CanuckMA]

But should it be your decision? Just because your tired of going to vist dear old mommy in the home. Im not against someone killing themselves its their life go for it. Im not against stop treatment orders but to go to the step of euthanasia without the consent of the person being killed is wrong.

You have no idea what my views on euthanasia. Have a look at previous posts on other threads to get a clue on my background. You may have an idea on my views of people deciding who lives and who dies.

But there reaches a point where enough is enough. And that point can come when it is not within that person's grasp to end their own life. My mother has seen and experienced unspeakable horrors. Who are you to decide what is best for her?

 

[Archangel M]

How many times do we have to say it. NOBODY IS SAYING ANYTHING ABOUT SUICIDE or a person being able to decide THEIR fate.

As a matter of fact we have stated (multiple times) that a person deciding for themselves their fate is not a problem.

But as I said before. If you could make it so would you not make it so that your mother was "cured"? Of course you would because life is better than death. Linking this discussion to abortion where the unborn has the potential for a full, healthy and happy life is starting to become foolish.

 

[granfire]

Didnt jump down your throat just saying what you said in a different way.

And I have seen it. I watched a former Marine Corps Sgt Major go from a strong stone faced man to a frail shell that needed nurses to change his diaper. Even with all that its not my place to say he should be put down like a stray cat. If he decided it was time for him to go I would support him its his life not mine.

I feel the same about the unborn baby. Its his life he should make the choice not the mother. To say times are tough for woman so they should be able to get abortions is just a stupid argument. #1 if they are that tough maybe they should not be having sex and working on taking care of their problems. The times are not so tough that they are not able to enjoy life and have sex.
#2 If you actually believe that argument that times are to tough for kids then why stop at the unborn are times not hard for a mother of a 3 year old why can she have the option to kill a baby?
Its a false argument to say she has a reason and you dont know what it is.

Aight, you don't want to see.
And, as many times before, when arguments crumble 'stronger' ones, no matter how asinine, are brought forth.

Where oh where did anybody say 'kill 3yo'. That is such a stupid argument, it baffles the mind.

You don't see the big picture. If you see it at all.
It takes two to tango. But only one is left holding the bag.
And for heaven's sake, who, but you compared a broken human being to a stray cat?!
You know what, a stray cat gets a more dignified end than the old. Having to need a nurse is one thing, but when mind and body are gone, the only reason to not end that life is the selfish reason that we are so morally superior, we don't kill people.

Your theory excuses the sperm donor from all responsibility. And how could he own up. He can't carry the child and give birth.

"should not have sex' I seldom heard more ignorant remarks.

No, wait, I take that back. I am surrounded by bible thumpers, that is about all you hear.
Birth control consists of the 'just say no' at best they allow you a penny to pinch between your knees.
As there are many people, there are many reasons to have sex. And even from a scientific perspective, reproduction is only one of many.


Go look up statistics, they are abundant: Single mothers have a hard time to make ends meet. and that is regardles of reason why they are single.

Yes, maybe they can pull themselves out of the muck by their own boot straps having a baby out of wedlock or being young and uneducated, but the odds are heavily against them.

I do give - indeed - life that has been around for a few years precedence over a lump of cells that will die when it leaves the womb.
However, I do not consider myself to be in the position to judge.

However, this thread started out as a case to put the execution of prisoners on TV...kind of ironic when you think about it.

 

[Tez3]

life or death is black and white
I don't speak for any of the trillions of woman I speak for the dead children

But you would have their choices stopped because of your beliefs not theirs.

I'm not saying you are wrong, I'm saying your beliefs are yours and neither of us has the right to push our beliefs on anyone. Women should have the right to chose. I wouldn't talk a woman into having an abortion nor would I pressure her to, I would support the choice she made, if asked for advice I would see she had all information on all options and listen while she went over them all, I wouldn't advocate anything. It's not my body I can't decide anything for her.

Not everyone believes as you do, that it's a baby in the early stages, if it has no organs, no brain formed yet etc they won't see it as a baby.

You won't change people's minds with melodramatic statements, what will change women's minds is proper concrete help, support financial and mental if they are to keep their babies, this isn't coming from you because all you give out is 'if you don't want a baby don't have sex'. that will help no one.

Rubbing people's noses in it because they have made a mistake isn't the way to help, give them a solid reason to keep their babies, that would help. Don't say oh things could get better, tell them yes I will adopt, I will help financially, I will support you in this difficult time etc. Don't sneer at them and say they should have kept their legs crossed.
Understand those that cannot go through with a pregnancy because of medical reasons, or because they've been raped or the victim of incest, don't lump them into the 'convenience' bag. Support the victims of war who have been raped and feel they can't carry the baby of their rapist, imagine instead what it would be like to have the baby of monsters growing inside you.

It's hard perhaps to think of the babies who could have been born but our duty is to the living not the maybe could have been people. there is so much suffering now that we would be better helping than thinking about what could have been and for all we know perhaps will be in another life.

 

[Tez3]

Going back to the OP what was the motive for showing a girl having a abortion? Was it a serious documentary? I doubt it was something that was being shown in a whimsical way.

 

[aedrasteia]

Tez

thanks for your many posts.
Go here to see the full episode: it was thought-provoking and serious.
No easy decision is the title.

www.mtv.com/videos/no-easy-decision-special/1654990/playlist.jhtn

Its also helpful to be familiar with 2 other MTV shows: 16 and Pregnant and Teen Mom.
These shows are well known to teen girls I've done SD classes with and we've talked about the issues because I make 'self-defense' as wide a topic as i can: part of 'protecting yourself and your dreams for a positive future'. Along with good health, understanding the pressures to drink/smoke/be Perfect/be hot/be thin/be sexual.
Refusing to buy into the pressures (esp. thin) is as big an accomplishment as learning
a palm-heel strike. And much much much much harder.

you can see episodes of those additional MTV shows on their website too.

Here's one of several summaries (from Irin Carton of Jezebel):

"MTV is said not to have sought advertisers for the commercial-free 30-minute special, which aired at 11:30pm last night. You can watch the full episode here, but here's the gist. The first half focused on Markai, who was featured in 16 And Pregnant while pregnant with her daughter Zakaria. As Dr. Drew pointed out later, 1 out of 4 teen moms have a repeat pregnancy, and more than 60 percent of women who have abortions already have at least one child. (my emphasis)

Markai misses an appointment for her Depo Provera shot and, unaware that it is no longer effective, doesn't use a backup method with her partner James. She's then shown discussing the options with James, her friend Chambray, and eventually her mother, all of whom are supportive of whatever she decides. James and her mother both remind her that, having been through rough times before the birth of her daughter, Markai has now graduated from high school and is saving for college, and everyone is worried about the family's ability to provide for a second child. "I just want to make the best 'What if,'" she says. The conversations feel a little staged, but there's no staging the real and conflicted emotions Markai is feeling.
She eventually speaks to a supportive counselor and then is dropped off by James at a clinic. (It's said that he isn't allowed inside for the procedure, which is not always the case, and nothing inside the clinic is shown on camera.) When he takes her to dinner afterwards, Markai lashes out at him for calling her fetus a "thing," and says there's no way he can understand her pain. She reminds him that their daughter was once a collection of cells.
Read more: http://jezebel.com/5720450/mtvs-abortion-special-didnt-disappoint#ixzz1ABKHmZrk

hope this helps, thanks again, A
​

 

[Tez3]

Adrasteia, thank you so much for that. Understanding situations is part of finding a solutions to problems.
Thank you too for teaching your teens that self defence is more than just martial arts techniques, they are lucky to have you.

 

[Blade96]

Blade, it's me that's on his list, he sent me a PM called me names saying I was a piece of work and said he was putting me on ignore. Of course if I'm quoted he still has to read it. The posts that annoyed him so much were where I was supportrf an autistic lad on here.

why would you supporting an autistic lad on here annoy him?

I knew that the "what about my sick grandmother" stories would arise and it doen't change what I said. My grandmother died a slow death of cancer too. And if I had a magic wand that could have cured her and granted her more life I would have waved it. Why? Because life is better than death.

No its not. Keeping a shell of a human being alive just because he is human and 'we euthanize animals, not people' even though the human has absolutely NO quality of life, they're just existing, not really living, same with the abuse and bullying victims, they see no escape, and with the internet bullying now, 'just dont use the internet' as my mother, who is a teacher and should no better, thats her stupid simplistic solution to cyberbullying, fact is being alive and breathing IS more terrible than death in lots of cases. Anyway keeping someone alive no matter what cause he is human and not an animal regardless of anything is selfish and immoral and uncaring. Thats how I see it.

So now you want to kill old people and babies? Hunting season on anyone under 9 months and over 70 right?

You like to jump to conclusions like a flea on a hot stove? and generalize too?

And I think that many of you are full of needless pessimism and far to quick to accept death as an option.

Then you are jumping to conclusions too about people.

Your position is yours alone, you cannot make judgemant calls on others lives. A victim of a bully or a paedophile may well believe life isn't worth living as numerous suicides have shown. You can't understand no more than I can what life is like for some people, for many it is a living hell and suicide is the only way out.
You may have done many things but you are not the only one, many here can say as much if not more than you. It doesn't change how life is for some and why they feel they cannot live any longer or why they feel they cannot bear a child. However you view life and however lucky you are, you have no right to speak for anyone other than yourself.

I agree!

If this argument is going to deliniate into a "Life Cult" vs "Death Cult"....I am happy with the side I have chosen.

Good if you are happy with your self and your own beliefs. I'm happy with mine too.

life or death is black and white
I don't speak for any of the trillions of woman I speak for the dead children

and there you have it folks. straight from the horse's mouth

How many times do we have to say it. NOBODY IS SAYING ANYTHING ABOUT SUICIDE or a person being able to decide THEIR fate.

As a matter of fact we have stated (multiple times) that a person deciding for themselves their fate is not a problem.

But as I said before. If you could make it so would you not make it so that your mother was "cured"? Of course you would because life is better than death. Linking this discussion to abortion where the unborn has the potential for a full, healthy and happy life is starting to become foolish.

sure we would. I'd also make it s no one has to be bullied, no one has to be mentally ill, no one should suffer anything bad. and no animals would suffer either. But since we can't we have to accept death as an option and a way out. and I do believe life is not always worth living. Some life you're not really alive. You merely exist. Ever heard of living dead?

 

[Blade96]

anyway this is my favorite thread in a long time here, a good strong heavy debate with lots of arguments back and forth, both pro choice and pro life. glad that bill and ball and to a lesser extent archangel and luckykboxer and a couple of others present the totally opposite view and makes it a fun debate thread. I think its also the first time I had the chance to get into an abortion thread since i joined this forum. pass the popcorn please

 

[billc]

If you like this head over to "liberal Pacifism" or "Why Ann Coutler is great." Or, Check out Liberal Movies. We are having an interesting talk about happiness over there.