CST power generation and structure

[guy b.]

How does it work and why is it different?

Any info much appreciated, thanks

 

[Wing Chun Auckland]

Guy,
I will describe my interpretation of what it is and how it is done. These may not be perfect interpretations. But I will not be pulled into a discussion where I have to defend it or get in an argument. I describe this on the assumption that you are being sincere and are genuinely curious. Otherwise, I wouldn't have bothered. I am a pretty well-informed wing chunner and have made my choice. And I respect others who have made their choice.

In a nut shell, this is how it is practiced.
1. SNT must be learned to be done against pressure tests. Each move must be achievable against someone using muscular strength to prevent you. The movements must also be able to be done with pressure from other angles. The better you get at this the more effortless the moves become and it feels as though no strength is being exerted.

2. Chum kiu turning and stepping needs to be learned against resistance. Can you turn when someone tries to prevent you by putting one hin frontront of your shoulder and one hand behind. If not, you are not connecting the upper and lower body. Can you step or walk forward with pressure on the chest? If not, your body is not integrated.
Once those chum kiu basics are in place, chum kiu is about doing the powerful and strong SNT movements learned while turning or stepping. Which create multi-directional force which adds more force and power to moves and makes then hard to stop.

3. BilJee is not so much about getting out of hard positions like others practice. Again, it is another expression of force concepts. Instead of a straight axis for turning like in BilJee, we now learn how to bend and twist the spine. Pressure tests are done to see if you can twist the spine or bend down or back up against resistance. Like the chum kiu tests, if you cant then you have weakness in the chain of movement and force and you will not be able to demonstrate the moves as well. Biljee is also about acceleration and long bridge moves. Also all moves in BilJee need to be learned against resistance and this is the hardest one to perform.

Chi Sao is learned right from the beginning as the force concepts you learn in it feed off the SNT and vice versa. Chi sao is not used to score points or tag a partner. It is pretty much purely used as a tool to develop structure, stance, alignment and force.

The way to achieve the hand movements in all these forms is a combination of theories and ideas that work. Alot of things we naturall do when move an arm forward against resistance are intuitive but dont work. So there is a lot of unlearning we have to do. Too many details in here to mention.

CST style to me is more about an engine. Once you have the above established you are free to do whatever movements or techniques you like. The difference is that each movement will be very powerful and is a brutal and scarey thing to be on the other end of as your body is shocked and disrupted. I experienced this personally when I shifted from another lineage.

 

[guy b.]

Guy,
I will describe my interpretation of what it is and how it is done. These may not be perfect interpretations. But I will not be pulled into a discussion where I have to defend it or get in an argument. I describe this on the assumption that you are being sincere and are genuinely curious. Otherwise, I wouldn't have bothered. I am a pretty well-informed wing chunner and have made my choice. And I respect others who have made their choice.

In a nut shell, this is how it is practiced.
1. SNT must be learned to be done against pressure tests. Each move must be achievable against someone using muscular strength to prevent you. The movements must also be able to be done with pressure from other angles. The better you get at this the more effortless the moves become and it feels as though no strength is being exerted.

2. Chum kiu turning and stepping needs to be learned against resistance. Can you turn when someone tries to prevent you by putting one hin frontront of your shoulder and one hand behind. If not, you are not connecting the upper and lower body. Can you step or walk forward with pressure on the chest? If not, your body is not integrated.
Once those chum kiu basics are in place, chum kiu is about doing the powerful and strong SNT movements learned while turning or stepping. Which create multi-directional force which adds more force and power to moves and makes then hard to stop

Thanks very much for the info. Does CSL VT also contain the drills that train movement against force, e.g. poon sau? If so then what is the extra benefit of training forms against force as well?

Chi Sao is learned right from the beginning as the force concepts you learn in it feed off the SNT and vice versa. Chi sao is not used to score points or tag a partner. It is pretty much purely used as a tool to develop structure, stance, alignment and force.

Sounds like poon sau and seung ma tui ma drills in WSL VT. Do you do these drills in CSL VT?

The way to achieve the hand movements in all these forms is a combination of theories and ideas that work. Alot of things we naturall do when move an arm forward against resistance are intuitive but dont work. So there is a lot of unlearning we have to do. Too many details in here to mention.

Would you be able to mention some that you think are different to the way standard YM VT approaches these things?

CST style to me is more about an engine. Once you have the above established you are free to do whatever movements or techniques you like. The difference is that each movement will be very powerful and is a brutal and scarey thing to be on the other end of as your body is shocked and disrupted. I experienced this personally when I shifted from another lineage.

Is there a particular way of using the body compared to standard VT approaches that you think makes CSL VT different in terms of this power development?

 

[KPM]

^^^ CSL VT?

 

[guy b.]

^^^ CSL VT?

CST. Confused by all the acronyms

 

[Wing Chun Auckland]

Does CSL VT also contain the drills that train movement against force, e.g. poon sau? If so then what is the extra benefit of training forms against force as well?

So I guess you mean poon sau as in rolling. Yes Poon sau is done against force. Why not just do poon sau then? My own thoughts why:
1. A teacher needs to "set you up" to do one of the SNT moves. This includes stance, posture and giving specific details about how to move the arm and what to think of. You are unlikely to work this out yourself in poon sau because in poon sau you constantly rolling.
2. I suppose there are moves in SNT that don't regularly come up in chi sao or poon sau.
3. Once you can can do that wide range of SNT moves against an opposing force, you can easily apply it and connect the dots in poons sau or chi sau.

Sounds like poon sau and seung ma tui ma drills in WSL VT. Do you do these drills in CSL VT?

I think WSLVT do lots of seung ma tui stepping drills. We don't do them like WSL. But in my school we sometimes practice pressuring someones chi sau structure to make them step back. The other person tries to hold their ground.

Would you be able to mention some that you think are different to the way standard YM VT approaches these things?

One of the theories used is circular theory. There's lots of expressions of this but I will explain a basic one which might still be hard to do over a forum. If we think of our arms like hoola hoops with one part of the hoop attached at the shoulder joint which lets the hoola hoop roll up or down. Better example maybe is if held the hoola hoop in my hand. If I hold the hoop vertically, and you are pushing the hoop on the other side along the strongest points for me is you pushing that forced along the vertical plane. However, if you push in another direction (e.g. horizontally), you will easily move this structure. So this is like a tan sau. If you put force into my tan structure, I am going to be able to deal easily with the force going directly into it and directly pushing into the shoulder joint. Also my relaxed shoulder joint can roll up or down with the pressre along that vertical plane. However, if you exert some sideways pressure on my tan, my shoulder or chest is going to have to tense up and use muscle to hold it. This is weak.
The opposite is true with the bong. I will be able to handle force along the horizontal plane easily and let the bong rotate side to side with the different pressure along this plane. However, if you were to exert vertical pressure, my bong won't hold.
This has implications for many other things. For example, if you were pushing your hand into a bicycle wheel, there is a very small point where the force will go directly into the point the axis. A little bit above or below that and the wheel is going to turn up or down. The effect of pusing hard and then being rotated up or down, is a sudden jolty collapse of your structure.

Is there a particular way of using the body compared to standard VT approaches that you think makes CSL VT different in terms of this power development?

Yes. For one with a lot of other WC I notice the hips locked forward. This locks the upper body with the lower body. You lose a lot of power and structure by doing this. So the hips and knees need to be springy and while sinking. Every joint really needs to be active.
That is just one way. We spend a lot of time standing and getting our alignment right which eventually results in a light floating feeling in our spine.
And we dont do anything that creates muscular tension in the body. E.g. elbows in which creates tension in the chest and shoulder.

 

[guy b.]

A teacher needs to "set you up" to do one of the SNT moves. This includes stance, posture and giving specific details about how to move the arm and what to think of. You are unlikely to work this out yourself in poon sau because in poon sau you constantly rolling.

Coaching details are certainly discussed with beginners during poon sau in WSL VT, but it is really the shape and force exchange of the drill that trains the body, rather than an idea being learned first then applied to the drills. I think that even without any coaching, long periods spent doing the poon sau drill enforces a certain way of using the body.

2. I suppose there are moves in SNT that don't regularly come up in chi sao or poon sau

There are a number of structured drills in VT which I think addresss all of the force receiving structures in the system

I think WSLVT do lots of seung ma tui stepping drills. We don't do them like WSL. But in my school we sometimes practice pressuring someones chi sau structure to make them step back. The other person tries to hold their ground.

Is there any reason for not doing the steppling drills? Long periods are spent on these in WSL VT

If you put force into my tan structure, I am going to be able to deal easily with the force going directly into it and directly pushing into the shoulder joint. Also my relaxed shoulder joint can roll up or down with the pressre along that vertical plane. However, if you exert some sideways pressure on my tan, my shoulder or chest is going to have to tense up and use muscle to hold it. This is weak.

What is tan used for in CST VT?

What forces are applied to tan in your poon sau drill?

The opposite is true with the bong. I will be able to handle force along the horizontal plane easily and let the bong rotate side to side with the different pressure along this plane. However, if you were to exert vertical pressure, my bong won't hold.
This has implications for many other things. For example, if you were pushing your hand into a bicycle wheel, there is a very small point where the force will go directly into the point the axis. A little bit above or below that and the wheel is going to turn up or down. The effect of pusing hard and then being rotated up or down, is a sudden jolty collapse of your structure.

What is bong used for in CST VT? Do you use any drills to train bong?

Yes. For one with a lot of other WC I notice the hips locked forward. This locks the upper body with the lower body. You lose a lot of power and structure by doing this. So the hips and knees need to be springy and while sinking. Every joint really needs to be active.

Can you post an example of the kind of hips forward posture you mean compared to a good example from CST VT?

We spend a lot of time standing and getting our alignment right which eventually results in a light floating feeling in our spine. And we dont do anything that creates muscular tension in the body. E.g. elbows in which creates tension in the chest and shoulder.

If elbows are out, does this mean that arm shoulder rather than elbow stance is the path for force to the ground?

 

[Wing Chun Auckland]

Coaching details are certainly discussed with beginners during poon sau in WSL VT, but it is really the shape and force exchange of the drill that trains the body, rather than an idea being learned first then applied to the drills. I think that even without any coaching, long periods spent doing the poon sau drill enforces a certain way of using the body.

Yes this is correct. So the poon sau in itself teaches a lot. Personally I got a decent structure from lots of chi sau first. It wasn't until much later that I could do all the SNT moves against resistance.

There are a number of structured drills in VT which I think addresss all of the force receiving structures in the system

Yes I think you are probably right. But other than force receiving moves or structures, there are still other moves in SNT.

What is tan used for in CST VT?

What forces are applied to tan in your poon sau drill?

It would be thought of as a structure and not so much an application. So whether my hand is opened or in a fist, the and shape is the same. So I could use it to punch through a punch on the same side. Or on the inside it could strike while dispersing or holding force out from the outside. Pretty much the same as I learned in the WSL here in Auckland.

What is bong used for in CST VT? Do you use any drills to train bong?

Well, it's used in all the same ways that WSL style uses it. But we look at it more like a shape and a movement than a fixed position. As a result, we are more flexible and are a bit more open ended about how we use it. WSL that is practiced here looks at the bong as a more defensive move. To us, it's more aggressive. For example, the movement and structure of spiraling forward from a tan is the same as throwing a spiraling punch. Or the same as throwing an elbow. So if I am holding a tan on the inside when doing chi sao, I might be able to hold the guys fok out and roll up and spiral into a punch. Or in a tan-bong I could shock the partner's stance and balance by elbowing the partner's fok hand. Also just learning how to bong under pressure helps your punching power of those types of punches.

Can you post an example of the kind of hips forward posture you mean compared to a good example from CST VT?

Not off hand. But you can tell the typical wing chun hips pushed forward stance.

If elbows are out, does this mean that arm shoulder rather than elbow stance is the path for force to the ground?

Yeah. So I think I know what you are getting at. The elbows in gets supported more by the stance, right? But the disadvantage ss that you cant hold much force before being made to step back. Your arm structure might hold but your stance can't. The force kind of goes into the upper body and not into the ground.

 

[guy b.]

Yes I think you are probably right. But other than force receiving moves or structures, there are still other moves in SNT.

If they aren't force receiving structures, then what is the purpose in training them against force? Which structures do you mean in particular?

Personally I got a decent structure from lots of chi sau first. It wasn't until much later that I could do all the SNT moves against resistance.

Would you say that learning ways of doing these SNT moves against resistance is a more advanced skill set than that developend via poon sau?

Or on the inside it could strike while dispersing or holding force out from the outside. Pretty much the same as I learned in the WSL here in Auckland.

Isn't that an example of sideways pressure on your tan, and therefore weak? I'm still not really sure how you are using tan.

Well, it's used in all the same ways that WSL style uses it. But we look at it more like a shape and a movement than a fixed position. As a result, we are more flexible and are a bit more open ended about how we use it. WSL that is practiced here looks at the bong as a more defensive move.

I would say that sounds like non-typical bong usage for WSL VT. Bong is a helping action in WSL VT, like Pak

Not off hand. But you can tell the typical wing chun hips pushed forward stance.

I'm not sure. I remember reasing some things from CSL wing chun about not pushing hips forwards, but pics shown looked more like a piss take than a genuine representation of what even what even weak stanced people do.

Yeah. So I think I know what you are getting at. The elbows in gets supported more by the stance, right? But the disadvantage ss that you cant hold much force before being made to step back. Your arm structure might hold but your stance can't. The force kind of goes into the upper body and not into the ground.

The idea is for force to go into pelvis and floor. At the risk of annoying you, do you think that putting elbows out rather than working to make the elbow in structure function could be a case of "gap filling", or evolution of the system? From experience it takes time and a lot of poon sau to make it work.

What is the CST take on partner stepping drills? You mentioned that you don't do?

 

[Wing Chun Auckland]

If they aren't force receiving structures, then what is the purpose in training them against force? Which structures do you mean in particular?

Well, helps to understand force principals that can be applied in other ways for one. For example, the principals in the fak sau pressure test helped to teach me how to use the same idea to punch through a fok sau from the bong position and break their structure while getting through. Which is more direct than spiralling from bong to tan and strike.

Would you say that learning ways of doing these SNT moves against resistance is a more advanced skill set than that developend via poon sau?

Yeah it was for me.

Isn't that an example of sideways pressure on your tan, and therefore weak? I'm still not really sure how you are using tan.

If there is too much sideways pressure we might convert it to a dai sau or a bong. But the better you get at wing chun, the less people are going to be able affect your structure even sideways.

I would say that sounds like non-typical bong usage for WSL VT. Bong is a helping action in WSL VT, like Pak

So we use it like the WSL would here. And plus the way I mentioned.
I have seen PB use the bong like a disrupting or pak movement the knocks the arm a little and creates an opening with the other arm. We don't really use it like that. And I have not seen it used quite like that in the WSL style here. But it looks effective.

I'm not sure. I remember reasing some things from CSL wing chun about not pushing hips forwards, but pics shown looked more like a piss take than a genuine representation of what even what even weak stanced people do

Do you mean CST or CSL? Well people I have met from other lineages really hinge that hip forward. Also some end up learning back. These people that I meet have no stability in their stance. We only want to do that a little and we will want to be active and bend at the hips.

The idea is for force to go into pelvis and floor. At the risk of annoying you, do you think that putting elbows out rather than working to make the elbow in structure function could be a case of "gap filling", or evolution of the system? From experience it takes time and a lot of poon sau to make it work.

Not sure. THere is a youtube video of CST talking about this. He always said the elbows should go in as much as they can without tension. Which for most people isn't much. For some thin wiry people it can go in more comfortably. But structurally, I have found when rolling it is weaker and more open to strikes from the side. As a lineage we all tend to roll with are elbows down at our side but not in. I would debate this with the WSL teacher a lot. He would say its better to have them in. I couldn't really see any advantage to it. But at least the WSL didnt have them in as much as the first wing chun I did which was elbows right on the center.

What is the CST take on partner stepping drills? You mentioned that you don't do?

So apart from pushing the chi sao structure of your partner as I described above. THere is not that much that we do. We cross punch each other stepping back and forth.

 

[guy b.]

or example, the principals in the fak sau pressure test helped to teach me how to use the same idea to punch through a fok sau from the bong position and break their structure while getting through. Which is more direct than spiralling from bong to tan and strike.

From a WSL perspective I would probably ask why you would be hanging out in a bong position in the first place?

But the better you get at wing chun, the less people are going to be able affect your structure even sideways.

I would agree. But from my perspective tan isn't any use at all if it can't continue forward against sideways force from outside

I have not seen it used quite like that in the WSL style here

That's interesting

Do you mean CST or CSL? Well people I have met from other lineages really hinge that hip forward. Also some end up learning back. These people that I meet have no stability in their stance. We only want to do that a little and we will want to be active and bend at the hips.

I mean CSL. They posted some pics of poor posture on another forum which seemed more like caricatures than genuine poor posture you might actually see. I think pics can be useful when talking about this kind of thing.

I couldn't really see any advantage to it. But at least the WSL didnt have them in as much as the first wing chun I did which was elbows right on the center.

It's really just about connecting elbow to stance

 

[Wing Chun Auckland]

From a WSL perspective I would probably ask why you would be hanging out in a bong position in the first place?

Well you roll up into the bong in chi sao, and it can be executed from there. Or actually the same move can be done from a high jab.
But I understand that WSL's bong are very transitory.

I mean CSL. They posted some pics of poor posture on another forum which seemed more like caricatures than genuine poor posture you might actually see. I think pics can be useful when talking about this kind of thing.

Yeah. Will see if I can find some later.