Power generation in VT

[LFJ]

The second myth is that martial artists should have big muscular bodies and practise with weights so as to be able to generate power.

Weightlifting is not bodybuilding.

If weight training can generate explosive power, why don't tennis or badminton players wrap their arms with weights during practice to improve their game? Food for thought isn't it?

I'm not a tennis player, but a quick Google search shows they actually use Olympic Weightlifting routines for the same reasons I suggested it be used for martial arts. Turns out it applies to any power athlete who wants to optimize their energy transfer by developing kinetic chain efficiency...

Oh, look at this! Power Cleans for Tennis:

To achieve external power (as opposed to internal power which uses a totally different method), the method is easy but it is hard work. Get a strong bag, fill it with green beans, place the bag onto a solid table or platform, relax your hand and arm and slam your palm down onto the bag. Do it 1,000 times a day (but be careful not to damage your hands). If the bag is not strong enough it may explode within three months. If so replace it with a better bag. After three years of such practise your single palm strike will generate so much power you cannot begin to imagine. And at this point your arm will look no bigger or different than it is three years ago.

That's just conditioning your hands, not developing power.

 

[wckf92]

Grinding arms in Hakka systems is a punching structure, punching musculature, punching power drill. Does it have an analogue in wing chun?

I don't know what 'Hakka' is? Is that a martial art or...?

Sorry, but I see what you are saying now about the grinding arm thing...I guess I was initially thinking about an old Uechi ryu drill where you bang arms together in a set pattern to toughen them up

 

[wckf92]

It seems power development is not consistent at all within different lineages.

Very much agree!

 

[guy b.]

I don't know what 'Hakka' is? Is that a martial art or...?

Sorry, but I see what you are saying now about the grinding arm thing...I guess I was initially thinking about an old Uechi ryu drill where you bang arms together in a set pattern to toughen them up

It's not arm conditioning. Analogue in wing chun is poon sau. Direction of force training, loaded structure training.

Hakka is a Chinese ethnicity. Several fighting systems are associated with them including southern preying mantis, dragon, white eyebrow, which are all basically the same thing. They use the float sink swallow spit body mechanic for power generation, among other things. Different to wing chun but similarities in some ways.

 

[Zeny]

Watch 23:30 and the rest of the video. Look at how ordinary the chinese martial artists look.

 

[wckf92]

They use the float sink swallow spit body mechanic for power generation, among other things. Different to wing chun but similarities in some ways.

Interesting. Do you know of some examples for these four mechanics?

 

[guy b.]

Interesting. Do you know of some examples for these four mechanics?

I posted an example of white crane using float sink on the thread where we were discussing CSL wing chun..might have been padwork thread? In simple terms float sink is rise fall, and can be straight forwardly used to add power to striking if you time it with hits. Like sitting in your punches but more pronounced. Can also be used in timings and counterstriking but basically rising the centre of gravity, then sitting it back down.

Swallow spit in Hakka systems is in simple terms back forward, usually interpreted in terms of drawing in, then exploding out. Example would be stepping back drawing the attack and receiving with beggar hands and characteristic rounded "basket weaver" back, then exploding forwards with step, hips, strike and simultaneously opening the ribs/straightening the back to power the elbow. Rib bone power from the grinding arm is used in this kind of strike- intercostal musculature essential.

The main problem with these methods is lack of mobility. To my mind they are from an earlier paradigm of fighting. You need to be very good with them to make mobile enough. CSL wing chun do a lot of pretty basic float sink when they are in contact, e.g. chi sau, but I don't see it when they are mobile. What they do looks too slow to really power punching. The white crane example posted was much more standard usage for striking.

CSL push the hips in which I believe they are characterising as swallow spit, but not close to fully developed compared to Hakka systems for which it is bread and butter basics. You break your structure if you swallow with hips, hence they don't. It is really just float sink again IMO.

 

[wckf92]

In simple terms float sink is rise fall, and can be straight forwardly used to add power to striking if you time it with hits.
.......but basically rising the centre of gravity, then sitting it back down.
Swallow spit in Hakka systems is in simple terms back forward, usually interpreted in terms of drawing in, then exploding out.

Ahh...I see. Cool! Thx Guy.

 

[KPM]

Interesting. Do you know of some examples for these four mechanics?

Guy gave a pretty good description. In Pin Sun we even have a technique called "Tun Sau" or "swallowing hand." It is essentially a Tan Sau that moves back to absorb or "swallow" rather than going forward to "spread." We also have a "Got Gan Sau" or "cutting" Gan Sau that uses the same "Tun" concept. "Spit" is any explosive output of force away from you. So essentially do a ballistic Biu Ma step with a punch would follow the "spit" concept. "Sink" and "rise" are pretty self-evident. In Pin Sun we sometimes use a "Gwai Mai" or "hanging stance" which is suddenly dropping your level by bending one knee. So this is following the "sink" concept. Of course, when you raise yourself back up from this position, you are doing "rise." Most people have a "rising" punch in their SNT & CK forms. Pin Sun has a short set called "Saam Jin Choi" or "three arrow punches" that explicitly trains the "sink" and "rise" elements. These concepts are also used as part of the power generation mechanics. You might "swallow" and "sink" at the same time by absorbing the opponent's force as you sink back into your stance...then you use "spit" and "rise" at the same time as you explode out of the position with a strike. Its like loading a spring and then releasing it. All of these concepts are found in the older methods of Wing Chun/Weng Chun. They are in Tang Yik Weng Chun as well. They are just applied a bit differently sometimes than in the Hakka arts, because ...of course, Wing Chun and Hakka arts are not the same thing.

 

[wckf92]

Guy gave a pretty good description. In Pin Sun we even have a technique called "Tun Sau" or "swallowing hand." It is essentially a Tan Sau that moves back to absorb or "swallow" rather than going forward to "spread." We also have a "Got Gan Sau" or "cutting" Gan Sau that uses the same "Tun" concept. "Spit" is any explosive output of force away from you. So essentially do a ballistic Biu Ma step with a punch would follow the "spit" concept. "Sink" and "rise" are pretty self-evident. In Pin Sun we sometimes use a "Gwai Mai" or "hanging stance" which is suddenly dropping your level by bending one knee. So this is following the "sink" concept. Of course, when you raise yourself back up from this position, you are doing "rise." Most people have a "rising" punch in their SNT & CK forms. Pin Sun has a short set called "Saam Jin Choi" or "three arrow punches" that explicitly trains the "sink" and "rise" elements. These concepts are also used as part of the power generation mechanics. You might "swallow" and "sink" at the same time by absorbing the opponent's force as you sink back into your stance...then you use "spit" and "rise" at the same time as you explode out of the position with a strike. Its like loading a spring and then releasing it. All of these concepts are found in the older methods of Wing Chun/Weng Chun. They are in Tang Yik Weng Chun as well. They are just applied a bit differently sometimes than in the Hakka arts, because ...of course, Wing Chun and Hakka arts are not the same thing.

Yeah once I read Guy's post, and yours...it helped me to understand the correlation of those Chinese terms. Those mechanics are present in my WC also. Thanks for the useful post and the examples.

 

[geezer]

Guy, have you trained SPM, Pak Mei or other Hakka arts?

They are not widely taught here in the States, so I only know what I read or see on Youtube (i.e. nothing). Anyway some people have opined that WC may be influenced if not partially derived from those arts due to many shared traits such as the short stance and emphasis on infighting, arms held in front with the elbows down, the rounded back some WC branches also have, ample use of the "phoenix-eye fist", as well as geographical proximity in Southern China.

Also, you again referenced "float, sink, swallow, spit" which I've also heard in Okinawan Karate circles. In your experience, do these principles have a place in WSL VT? Or do you feel they contradict your WC structure, principles for power generation, forward intent, etc.?

 

[geezer]

Guy gave a pretty good description. In Pin Sun we even have a technique called "Tun Sau" or "swallowing hand." It is essentially a Tan Sau that moves back to absorb or "swallow" rather than going forward to "spread."...

When done properly, especially against a forceful punch, our tan does both swallow and spit at the same time. That is it presses forward while moving backwards. That's hard to do! Still, I feel that we use something like "swallowing" (as I've heard it described), but without actually pulling back and giving up forward intent. Instead we compress or angle aside which yields and absorbs without actually pulling in. Withdrawing energy is a big no-no in our lineage!

Our back-weighted stances and "pulling/dragging-steps" (coming from "WT") minimize rising and falling so "float-sink" is not so obviously used either. On the other hand, my Latosa Escrima uses falling and rising force extensively, which has made me more aware of it in my WC. It's just a lot subtler.

 

[Wing Chun Auckland]

Weights are completely unnecessary (and probably even detrimental) for developing power. What makes you strong and powerful against a partner is using body structure, relaxation, alignment and correct limb movement which is learned in the forms.

Even for professional fighters weights are said to be a bad idea.

 

[KPM]

Weights are completely unnecessary (and probably even detrimental) for developing power. What makes you strong and powerful against a partner is using body structure, relaxation, alignment and correct limb movement which is learned in the forms.

Even for professional fighters weights are said to be a bad idea.

From a sports medicine perspective, that is not at all true. I bet there isn't a single UFC fighter that doesn't do some weight training in some form. Structure, relaxation and alignment only get you so far. What moves a limb to deliver a strike is muscle. The stronger that muscle is, the more power you have the potential to produce. Can a skinny guy without much mass produce good power? Of course! But imagine what they same guy could do if he had more mass and strength. ;-) Bruce Lee is by no means the Wing Chun standard. But I wanted to point out that Bruce was into weight lifting back before it was cool to do so!

 

[Wing Chun Auckland]

Well it depends how loosely you say "in some form". Boxers etc are not going to be doing heavy bench presses etc. Power in punching does not come from lifting heavy. With fighters I see a lot of plyometric stuff.

With trainers like Nick Cruson and the Marionich brothers it is almost like they are taking the resistance out of the training. For each exercise, instead of making it slower and harder with weights they find ways to make it faster and more explosive. Instead of running up a hill to get explosive speeds in the legs, they will have you running down a hill.

"Can a skinny guy without much mass produce good power? Of course! But imagine what they same guy could do if he had more mass and strength."
- ....well, to me, it's relying on localised muscle is an obstacle to power. I would say the skinny guy who has power should stay on the path he is on because it has obviously worked well for him so far and he is only going to get better. Because we are on the discussion of weights I assume you mean build mass through weights? Because you are talking about what a skinny guy could do if he basically got bigger with muscle. Well his mass would heavier which of could help with power. Not so sure the actually arm strength is going to help much. His bigger muscled frame is going to slow him down as well as suck up oxygen in a fight and cause him to gas faster.

 

[Wing Chun Auckland]

I have met many people who have shocked me with their power in martial arts. Not just in wing chun. None of them of them were bigger or heavier than me.

 

[Wing Chun Auckland]

.... to clarify.... I am not big. They just happened to be lighter and smaller than me.

 

[mograph]

Regarding weight training for optimal function, I like Paul Chek's work with full-body exercises.Maybe they'd help with power, maybe not.
7 Primal Movement Patterns For Full-Body Strength

 

[guy b.]

Weights are completely unnecessary (and probably even detrimental) for developing power. What makes you strong and powerful against a partner is using body structure, relaxation, alignment and correct limb movement which is learned in the forms.

Even for professional fighters weights are said to be a bad idea.

Completely wrong. Hitting is no different to other athletic movements.

 

[guy b.]

Well it depends how loosely you say "in some form". Boxers etc are not going to be doing heavy bench presses etc. Power in punching does not come from lifting heavy. With fighters I see a lot of plyometric stuff.

Power athletes do both, lifting heavy off season or far out from fight, more plyos, technique and speed as comp or fight gets closer. It is called complex training, well established approach. Virtually all athletes in sports with a power component will do it.

With trainers like Nick Cruson and the Marionich brothers it is almost like they are taking the resistance out of the training. For each exercise, instead of making it slower and harder with weights they find ways to make it faster and more explosive. Instead of running up a hill to get explosive speeds in the legs, they will have you running down a hill.

Running down a hill or forcing speed in other ways is again a standard approach. People doing this kind of thing will also be lifting heavy and doing heavier to lighter plyos periodised in a logical way and building towards event.

well, to me, it's relying on localised muscle is an obstacle to power.

Nothing is more effective in training full body muscle recruitment than olympic lifting.

I assume you mean build mass through weights? Because you are talking about what a skinny guy could do if he basically got bigger with muscle.

Getting stronger does not necessarily entail getting bigger. Muscle fibre composition, muscle recruitment, neural pathways all play a huge role.

Not so sure the actually arm strength is going to help much. His bigger muscled frame is going to slow him down as well as suck up oxygen in a fight and cause him to gas faster.

?