Cross Training

[noonesfool]

I have a few questions about cross training Kenpo with Shaolin Kung Fu.
A guy at the training hall is doing it and this local kenpo dojo has some really reasonable rates.
What would I actually gain from the cross training in terms of new moves and power.
I was thinking of doing it because the guy said it's great and it's kind of cheap.
The instructor said alot of people do it and it's great.
Whats the general opinion on this here?

 

[Michael Billings]

If so, you know that it is easy to get the two confused. I highly recommend focusing on a sole Art to get a "foundation" from which to build. There may be some cross training which is very beneficial, but having come from several systems, I can vouch for the fact that "learning interference" happens when you attempt to assimilate similar material at or near the same time. Get a "Core" Art, and then branch out if you feel it appropriate. Otherwise your Kung Fu stances will be high and your Kenpo stances will be low (just an example.) and I am not being detrimental of either system.

Obviously I think you should start with Kenpo, and see how much depth is available. Make the decision from there.

-Michael
Kenpo-Texas.com

 

[noonesfool]

I was just curious because the instructor said they tailor your instruction to what you want.
I had no problem blending TKD basics into my kung fu for higher more deliberate kicks.
They had alot of Muay Thai classes also that seemed interesting.

 

[Katie Simmons]

Every so often, we'll get a dojo hopper at our school. You know, one of those guys who has studied a little bit of this, a little bit of that, and is searching for a way to learn just enough to be invincible. I'll tell you the exact same thing I tell them: Concentrate on one art before you start cross-training. It is essential to have a full understanding of yourself, what works for you, before you start incorporating other arts. If you feel that you're at that level, go for it. And good luck to you.:wink:

 

[noonesfool]

I am not trying to be invincible or be better than anyone else.
The Kenpo instructor said everyone has to build a martial art that is suited to them.
I did better at Tae Kwon when I did Kung Fu and Tae Kwon.
What one instructor could not make me understand another did.
I was just more interested in the possible problems that could arise from crossing the two.
I have several health issues that prevent me from doing some moves effectively so another art could fill that hole so I don't have a gap in my defense.
If I know possible problems then possibly I can watch for them and not make that mistake.
At Kung Fu I help people with their kicks because I understand another way from another teacher so it makes me feel good when I help them do better.
I just helped a gentleman with his forms tonight by telling him somethings and it was instantly better for him.
I was doing bad at school until I crossed my education with another now I hit higher test scores.
I was taught never to limit myself and if I can't do one thing then learn another way but don't give up.
The only true way I can know is to try and if it does'nt work for me then find another.

 

[Michael Billings]

I really am not contentious by nature, as you can see from other posts. I usually try to be respectful and open to others as a rule. I am prefacing this because it looks like you already made up your mind. Don't ask the question if you don't want to hear the answer. I think you had two fairly senior people answering your inquiry in good faith, and are not open to hearing something you do not want to consider. Note, my school teachs JKD, Kali, Silat, Escrima, Muay Thai, and we have classe in BJJ and Vale Tudo.

But other than an ocassional seminar to see how the opposition can fight, and to expose ourselves to something new, you see little cross training. Cross training is just really popular right now. You ask why? My personal feeling is that people don't want to put in the years it takes to progress in a system like Kenpo or Kung Fu. Look at the popularity right now of the SPEAR system or Krav Maga. Quick fixes, some good things about them some bad, and they are just examples.

I also studied Taekwondo and Shotokan. But never at the same time. My Japanese style Sensei would never approve of my training in another system simultaineously. The JKD guys have done it for years, Danny Inosanto, Ray Para, and a lot of the Phillipino arts cross train. But now it is in vogue, that is probably why you get initial results from us that you don't like to hear. We have students who have tried to learn multiple arts at the same time. It is nothing personal against you, it is just our opinion.

See what others say, we have people on here who cross train and others who just don't believe in it. Post a poll if you want and see what the majority of votes say ... then run one where you specify the level at which it is ok to start cross training. I feel ok about a Brown Belt or Black Belt student cross training. They have a foundation to compare, contrast, and evaluate the effectiveness.

I too have great kicks from Taekwondo, but I know Kenpo guys, like Mark Ainsley who is a serious competitor sparring and has awesome kicks (talent? training? emphasis by a teacher who was previously in a kicking art? who knows?) But Kenpo is one of the most complete systems around. Give it a chance then go where you will. I don't want to sour you on Kenpo by disagreeing with you, but you did ask the question, so you are getting an opinion that some other instructors share.

Each of us must make their own Jouney, who knows where yours will lead you.

Oss,
-Michael
Kenpo-Texas.com

 

[Kenpomachine]

I have to partially disagree here with Michael.
First of all you have to think why you want to crosstrain. Is it to fill a gap in your current training? Then, you'd better follow Michael's advice and wait for brown belt.
Is it because you've moved and there's no way you can continue training in a school but switching arts? Then go ahead (I'll assume you'll continue practicing your core art by yourself)
Is it because you have to many time to train and want to train in a certain number of arts from the beginning? Do so, but be certain you'll have more problems advancing in any of them as you have to integrate everything that is being teach to you to work smoothly. It's also easier that if you don't do it correctly, you'll get more vices than training in just one, so I won't recommend this option unless you can get one master/instructor to teach you all of them. This way you'd have less problems.
Now, I want to make it clear that this last option it's not one month I train in TKD, the next in Kung fu and the next in kenpo, but training seriously in each and everyone of the arts to earn your BB.

 

[noonesfool]

I am still trying to find away out of the rash of bad schools that are around.
I am perfectly happy with Kung Fu but the my introductory rate has run out.
The price specified was not the price that was on the contract so I must leave.
I guess I am not really cross training in the truest sense but I have basics of TKD and Kung Fu that I can not continue with.
There are 2 TKD schools and 2 Kung Fu schools but the prices charged or instruction is not acceptable.
I however do not wish to toss out everything I have learned.
People screw me over so I have to start out all over with another art every time.
You tell someone between $60-$100 a month and it ends up $140 3 months later or you say my art can give you this but it gives you that.
In all honesty I would prefer to stay with one thing but the dishonesty being rampant in the business is getting frustrating.
I just get used to one thing and then something messed up happens.
I am now being classified as a non dedicated student which is not true since I simply will not commit to more than what was agreed upon at my coming to the school.
I am running accross non dedicated instructors/schools.
I sign up for introductory rates and probe as much as I can but the truth never comes out until the end.
I would prefer to be taught the arts from a true practitioner like a person from china or japan but I get people that pretend they love the art and stick their hands in my pocket draining me.

 

[Michael Billings]

Now that you put your situation in context, it makes much more sense to me. My school is small, and I try to run it as a club as much as possible, just to avoid that big commercial school meat market feel.

I am sorry for your woes and do not blame you for "shopping around". This is not the same thing at all as just trying a little of this, or a little of that. Good luck in finding a school that fits your budget and holds some ethical high ground.

I do not think hidden costs or escalating cost is an ethnocentric kind of issue, (Look at the hidden fees in Taekwodo - the big schools, must test every 6 weeks, the test may or may not be free, the belt may or may not be included as part of the test, the certificate could cost extra, and registration with the national or international association costs, plus you have to buy our uniform, and we draft your account - this is a true story, not an exaggeration, and not run by an American.)

There are plenty of good Taekwondo schools out there, along with Kenpo, Kung-Fu (in it's infinite varieties.) Sorry you have run across a couple of bad ones right off the bat.

Do you have a university in your town? Often they have "clubs" that are open to non-students as part of a continuing education curriculum, or maybe you can find someone in a garage school who is a 3rd Black ... like I used to be, or Ricardo, on this Forum. Both of us kept growing, in rank and in teaching. I sincerely wish you good fortune in finding a school to fit you. Perservere in asking the hard question and don't settle for ambiguous answers. Explain the problem and your reason for wanting to know. You don't have to mention the other schools by name, I am sure the new instructor will know who is doing what in town.

Oss,
-Michael
Kenpo-Texas.com

 

[Kenpomachine]

Then you'd better go out there and find yourself a school before even thinking of crosstraining, Just my 2 cents (€)

 

[noonesfool]

I am going to checkout a Kenpo school tonight which he did specify all costs on paper and they are nowhere near what everyone else wants.
I explained what was going on and they said look have 2 months on the house just to be here and if I like I can stay.
I know it's a business and all but there is a thing called truth in business and disclosure upfront.
I do not accept ambiguous answers about anything but the Kenpo guy called me a cross trainer so I misunderstood.
Alot of these schools close because rates go up and then the students leave.
At Kung Fu I saw about 75% of the classes turn over like retail jobs.
Alot of the people interested in this stuff are college students whom can not pay $$$$$ hundreds a month.
In todays economy schools are going to have a hard time finding people with hundreds to burn on something that is not really necessary.
If a school charges $150 or above a month then they should 100% gurantee the instruction staff and what they are teaching is 100% authentic.
If you are shown stuff that is wrong then you run the risk of being killed protecting yourself.

 

[Blindside]

Just a couple of comments:

At Kung Fu I saw about 75% of the classes turn over like retail jobs.

I actually don't think that is unusual, the highest rate of turnover is in the beginning ranks, where people come in, find it is not for them, and leave. At just a guess, I bet our student retention to the two year mark is probably in the 10% category. And at our rates cost isn't really the issue.

If a school charges $150 or above a month then they should 100% gurantee the instruction staff and what they are teaching is 100% authentic. If you are shown stuff that is wrong then you run the risk of being killed protecting yourself.

Impossible. You can't even define what is an "authentic" martial art. Now if you mean "better" or "effective" then maybe you have a point. The argument of what does constitute what is "better" or "effective" is really what drives these discussion boards, and no one has come up with a convincing answer yet.

Finally, I'll chime in here, go ahead and focus on one art. Some schools do teach an integrated curriculum, and they are usually better about showing you the transitions between the arts. If you are talking about training and unrelated schools in a similar focus (ex: stand up fighting) then I would discourage it.

good luck,

Lamont

 

[noonesfool]

Alot of the people split from Kung Fu because of the price becaused I asked each and everyone I saw leave.
50% did not quit because it was hard but because they said they were mislead.
Another 10% left because of the long contracting involved and the locked in status.
If a school locks you in at 2 years then they can darn well lax in instruction and your stuck with useless junk.
I noticed the white levels were the most instructed but I looked in on the advanced and intermediate levels and the people were left with not learning anything.
If a school is as good as they say then they should not need contracts to keep students.
I had my first Kenpo class last night and they don't use contracts but this class was the best I have ever seen or attended.
They had 2 instructors with 8 people and we were never left without a moment of input.
These guys are not in it for just cash since belt upgrades are only $8-$14 and the class is a monthly $60.
They said testing is whenever you are ready not in a set period of time.
This place has tons of students and I can see why.

 

[Kenpomachine]

I'm so glad that you'd found a school that appeals to you

Best of luck with your journey.