Chinese Kenpo/Kempo or Kung Fu?

[Flying Crane]

Ok first and foremost, I love this site. I have learned a lot in the last couple of minutes i have spent reading this thread especially from Flying Crane.

I study Shaolin Kempo Karate. I know that my instructors, instructor learned under GM James Brassard. How far back it goes from there I can not tell you.

As for the way our curriculum is set up, I know the five animals (crane, snake, dragon, leopard and tiger) are taught from the very beginning. Im only an orange belt but I know from talking to the higher ranks the emphasis on the animals is great the higher you climb especially in the forms.

My instuctor also uses the animals when it comes to our sparring. Movements, power, speed etc.

My 2 cents

B

Thanks for chipping in here. I would be curious to know if your instructors would tell you where their five animals comes from? Is it something that was adopted from a specific Chinese art, like Hung Gar? That would certainly narrow down just what kind of material it is.

And what is the lineage of your Shaolin Kempo? Under whom did Mr. Brassard train? Thx!

 

[clfsean]

i guess it depends on locality and influence, but i've always thought/heard the most common referrenced 5 animals of kung fu were dragon, tiger, snake, crane, and leopard. never have i hard deer mentioned.

however, it would be interested to see a deer form. wonder if it has anything to do with turning up it's whitetail and running away from danger...?

The "Five Famous Animals" of kung fu are like was mentioned before: tiger, crane, dragon, leopard & snake.

The deer is found in a qigong set from a physician named Hua To. His animal qigong sets were: monkey, bear, deer, bird, tiger. That in itself is a point of contention about if it still exists or not. Some say yes, some say no.

 

[Flying Crane]

The "Five Famous Animals" of kung fu are like was mentioned before: tiger, crane, dragon, leopard & snake.

The deer is found in a qigong set from a physician named Hua To. His animal qigong sets were: monkey, bear, deer, bird, tiger. That in itself is a point of contention about if it still exists or not. Some say yes, some say no.

Yeah, I couldn't remember where I saw the Deer reference. Might be part of the Xing-I Twelve Animals, or something, as well.

 

[KempoGuy06]

Thanks for chipping in here. I would be curious to know if your instructors would tell you where their five animals comes from? Is it something that was adopted from a specific Chinese art, like Hung Gar? That would certainly narrow down just what kind of material it is.

And what is the lineage of your Shaolin Kempo? Under whom did Mr. Brassard train? Thx!

Im guessing it was Mr. Villari, but do not quote me on that. I have class tomorrow night so I will ask my instructor then. My school is linked to GM Brassards in MA, i dont know if this will help at all.

According to this http://www.urbin.net/EWW/MA/KF/famtrees.html GM Brassard DID train under Villari. (scroll down to the "Shaolin Kempo Karate Family Tree" section)

B

 

[dj99526]

Im guessing it was Mr. Villari, but do not quote me on that. I have class tomorrow night so I will ask my instructor then. My school is linked to GM Brassards in MA, i dont know if this will help at all.

According to this http://www.urbin.net/EWW/MA/KF/famtrees.html GM Brassard DID train under Villari. (scroll down to the "Shaolin Kempo Karate Family Tree" section)

B

these links should help you
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/MA/KEMPO/fv-ft.html

http://jamesbrassard.com/

 

[jdinca]

"Chinese kenpo" is also used to differentiate from other forms of kenpo. Case in point, my school which teaches Bok Fu Do. Although GM Lee was one of Tracy's first black belts and taught his system extensively, the system he developed that became Bok Fu Do goes farther down the Chinese path as far as style of movement. Yes we still start out hard, as does the Tracy system, quite frankly because it's easier to learn. As the student advances, the more circular style of movement found in CMA starts to show itself and gradually takes the place of the harder style learned early on.

On an even more basic, basic level, we call ourselves a chinese system because we focus on using the attacker's force against him, as opposed to many Japanese styles, where it's force against force.

 

[BlackCatBonz]

"Chinese kenpo" is also used to differentiate from other forms of kenpo. Case in point, my school which teaches Bok Fu Do. Although GM Lee was one of Tracy's first black belts and taught his system extensively, the system he developed that became Bok Fu Do goes farther down the Chinese path as far as style of movement. Yes we still start out hard, as does the Tracy system, quite frankly because it's easier to learn. As the student advances, the more circular style of movement found in CMA starts to show itself and gradually takes the place of the harder style learned early on.

On an even more basic, basic level, we call ourselves a chinese system because we focus on using the attacker's force against him, as opposed to many Japanese styles, where it's force against force.

i cant quite think of any japanese systems that work that way.

 

[The Kai]

Shotokan
Goju Ryu
Judo. Jujitsu

 

[BlackCatBonz]

Shotokan
Goju Ryu
Judo. Jujitsu

shotokan maybe.....
you think these styles are force against force?

sounds like you havent seen much of it.

 

[jdinca]

Shotokan was what I was thinking of in particular.

 

[dianhsuhe]

Judo and Jujitsu are DEFINITELY not force vs force based systems... Quite the contrary- Jigoro Kano would not have done well since he was what? A little over 5 feet tall and thin?

Shotokan, yes very hard linear etc. and like Kyokushinkai they do some body conditioning to it could be considered force on force.

 

[KempoGuy06]

Judo and Jujitsu are DEFINITELY not force vs force based systems... Quite the contrary- Jigoro Kano would not have done well since he was what? A little over 5 feet tall and thin?

Shotokan, yes very hard linear etc. and like Kyokushinkai they do some body conditioning to it could be considered force on force.

I will second that notion about Juijitsu ( i dont know much about Judo so i cant make an educated response). From my training in BJJ i know force can be your downfall if you are up against someone with more experience.

B

 

[eyebeams]

Shotokan was what I was thinking of in particular.

"Hard blocks" issue force along an uncontested or indirect angle. It eventually serves as an offensive movement that complements body shifting. It's different from the conditioning, which is very much based on resistance.

 

[jdinca]

Reread my post, "many" was not the right word, "some" would have been more appropriate. It's also somewhat relative to the type of movement we're talking about. Although Japanese systems may not all be "hard" in style, I would say, as a generality, that they can be typically harder and more straight line than Chinese systems. Yes, I know, there are exceptions to every rule. My caveat is that much of my knowledge is what has been passed on through teachings from my GM. His first BB was in Shotokan, which is one of the reasons we have some of that style in the earlier parts of our system. I always appreciate the different opinions and knowledge that can be gained here.

 

[BlackCatBonz]

i'll give you some okinawan systems as being "hard" or force against force (but those artists may argue the point), but when i think of japanese martial arts, it's something that yields and blends with all of the fancy movement stripped away.

 

[Josh Oakley]

Even with shotokan, it's not just force against force. Often, they're taught to met force with nothing. They have PLENTY of hard force, but they also know how to get out of the way and let the opponent defeat himself.

 

[Iron Leopard]

I know it's been said before but just to put my experience into this....

Chinese/shaolin Kempo is basically karate with kung fu/chinese influences.

A life long student of kung fu watching a kempo guy would say "that's karate!"

A life long karate student watching a kempo guy might say."that looks kinda like what I do and kinda like kung fu!"

 

[Gufbal1982]

I will second that notion about Juijitsu ( i dont know much about Judo so i cant make an educated response). From my training in BJJ i know force can be your downfall if you are up against someone with more experience.

B

A lot of Judo is in BJJ. side mount is also called kazagatami (I think I spelled it wrong) but is from judo. There's lots of fun stuff if you look up the history of the style. It's all about the technique.

 

[Shotochem]

Even with shotokan, it's not just force against force. Often, they're taught to met force with nothing. They have PLENTY of hard force, but they also know how to get out of the way and let the opponent defeat himself.

I concur, as a former Shotokan practioner. We were hard and linear but we were taught not to meet force with force if possible. We were also taught to move Tae Sabaki-like and not so much in a predictable straight line.

On another note I am currently under a Kempo System which also uses animal forms and movements. I do not think it is in as much depth as a true Chinese system but I find the animal elements to be a refreshing change from all that linear and hard movements. They have really opened up my mind as a MA in regards to applications, strategy and movement and have enriched my training.

-Marc-

 

[jdinca]

Even with shotokan, it's not just force against force. Often, they're taught to met force with nothing. They have PLENTY of hard force, but they also know how to get out of the way and let the opponent defeat himself.

Let's change it up a bit. Would you consider Shotokan more linear than circular? How about some of the other traditional Japanese styles? Remember, we're not looking at one side in a vacuum, we're comparing Japanese to Chinese. I'm curious as to what the answers might be.