Court Declines to Review Abortion Law

[ginshun]

If the law is going to *force* her to have a child, shouldn't the young man involved be *forced* to be a parent, too?

Absolutely.


And I don't know about anyone else, but please don't get the impression that I am bitching about paying child support. I do it gladly. And the time with my daughter is split 50-50 between her mother and I.

But it does get me a bit riled up when people sympathize completely with single mothers. Saying how they have the worlds toghest job, and totally forget that some single fathers do just as much of the child raising, plus carry the insurace, plus pay the mother quite a bit of money every month, and yet somehow they are still the bad guy.

I pesonally think that deadbeat dads are the lowest scum of the earth.

 

[Tgace]

My answer: women (just like men) can want to control what other people do, and feel that certain things are just evil, no matter what.

Do those two statements equate? If a woman thinks abortion is "evil". Is that always the same as her "wanting to control what other people do"? Does being "pro-life" (god I hate those two terms. like the issue is black and white) always mean you want abortion outlawed? Are no limits acceptable?

 

[Feisty Mouse]

Do those two statements equate? If a woman thinks abortion is "evil". Is that always the same as her "wanting to control what other people do"? Does being "pro-life" (god I hate those tow terms. like the issue is black and white) always mean you want abortion outlawed? Are no limits acceptable?

Oh no, I think there is a difference between one's own perspective on abortion, and trying to actively legislate your views that will affect other people.

That's where I see the pro-life/pro-choice divide. I know many women who would not want to have an abortion unless there was a pressing medical reason why they could not have the baby - but they are also strongly politically pro-choice, because they don't want other people telling them (or other women) what their choices can or cannot be.

So no, they're not the same thing - they sometimes get wrapped up in each other, though.

 

[ginshun]

Well, it sounds like you don't identify with all the non-custodial parents out there who don't pay their child support. And, NO, we don't automatically garnish wages, that must be petitioned for and approved by the judge in each case.

So I guess I didn't understand what you were saying? I realize it has to go through the court, but if you want to start garnishing wages, it kind of has to. There has to be confirmation. Some woman just can't make a phone call and say to start garnishing this guy wages, he is my kids dad. Is that really what you are suggesting?

As do I. Really, am I screwed? Hmmm... Disneyland, the Happiest Place on Earth is one employer who refuses to release their employment records to support enforcement. How do I know? My ex works there - and does not pay child support. In fact, he hasn't in ... oh ... 10 years now. Oh, and he HAD a government job - and quit it when I left him. So I have had to provide the insurance, the food, the clothing, the parenting, everything for these children, but ... I'm not screwed? Actually, I'm not screwed - the kids are.

That sucks. I guess I know that there are guys out there who somehow get out of child support, but I can't believe there is nothing legal that can be done. If not I am sorry. He is a scumbag, I will give you that.

That would serve the purpose of finding him when he runs and works for cash under the table and rents a room from a friend so he doesn't have to pay support. If you think this is a rarity, think again. Here's some statistics from one site for you, if that matters.

As long as the mother gets one too, so that she cannot take the child away as long as he lives up to his end of the deal, I don't have a problem with it I guess.

The mother has to pay for nothing? Where did I say that? Do you honestly think that child support payments support chidlren 100%? Do you think it's enough to feed children and clothe them and provide school supplies and pay for medical bills and dental bills and vision care bills? Think it's going to pay for their braces? Midnight trips to the emergency room?

I guess you are basing things on your experience, and I am basing them on mine. All that other stuff is split in my case, after my child support is payed. And it is my insurance that pays all those bills. I am sure it can go the other way, which everyone is more than wlecome to acknowlage. And I will grant you that women probably get the short end quite a bit.

And do you think payment only comes from your wallet? This is the most revealing misconception of the responsibility of pregancy and child-rearing yet. KIDS ARE NOT FOR RENT!! They are not little animals you can hole up and toss scraps to.

Parenting is a tough, thankless, gut-wrenching job if it's done right - and that means more than the $250 per month some non-custodial parents pay in support.

You bet it is. And even when the father does just as much of the work, and pays for most of the bills, he doesn't get as much credit for it as the co-custodial mother. Not that seeing my child turn out good isn't payment enough, but it gets sickening to constently here how hard it is for single mothers, and nobody even thinks about single fathers who (OH MY GOD) actually take interest and do a good job with there kids. As if it is unheard of or something.

Not only men pay child support. My step-mom, for instance, pays child support. And she shares in the parenting responsibilty (the kids move back and forth between mom's house & dad's house).

granted. In joint custody cases it is based on how muc each parent has the kids and how much each of them makes, not just the generic 17% of oneparent having sole legal custody.

 

[Flatlander]

OK, back to the topic then......

 

[Cryozombie]

Some Thoughts:

I wonder why no one has mentioned...

An abortion is a medical proceedure.

If a Minor needs a medical proceedure of any other nature, a parent must provide consent.

Why is an abortion different?
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Also, I dont understand the arguements about "the boy"

Requiring a parents consent for a girl to have an abortion is TOTALY different than saying a boy should have a forced Vasectomy or Hormone injections to keep him from puberty.

How? One requires permission of a Legal Guardian to do somthing, the other physically affects a person with NO ONES consent, his or his guardian.

My opinion is that It would be closer to the same issue to say an underage Boy needs a parents consent to have his testicles snipped.

An abortion or a vasectomy are both medical proceedures to prevent a person from having an unwanted child.
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Of course the boy should be responsible. Its assinine to say otherwise. He was just as responsible for what they did as the girl.

I am amused by the weird double standard involved with this argument however, that on one hand "It takes two to tango" and "he has a responsibility"

But its not his Body so he doesnt have a say.

Hmm.

<shrug>

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Now, my personal opinion?

Abortion is none of my buisness. BUT, If I got a girl pregnant and she chose to have an abortion, I would hope that she would talk it over with me... and the same would go for my child. If I had a daughter who got pregnant, I would hope to hell she would talk to me about it, before going in for a proceedure.

Why?

Because, it has been my experience that these things are often emotional issues, and I would hate for my Girl, or my child, to have to deal with it alone... I would want to be able to be there for them, if they needed me.

Just some random thoughts after reading this thread

 

[Tgace]

Well...we did mention the medical proceedure/abortion issue way up thread. Nobody really addressed it though.

 

[Cryozombie]

Well...we did mention the medical proceedure/abortion issue way up thread. Nobody really addressed it though.

Right.

 

[Gary Crawford]

I'll make a decision about abortion when "I" get pregnant.

 

[rmcrobertson]

1. How do I explain, "pro-life," women? a) I remember that some women plain and simple have moral objections to abortion, and my belief that they should be free to make their own choices and teach what they believe to be right; b) I consider the account of Freud's concept of, "reaction formation," as adapted in to the conceptualization of black self-hatred under colonialism in, "Black Skin, White Masks;": c) I reflect upon the fact that Phyllis Schafly is visibly crazy, a female hysteric of Nancy Reagan proportions.

2. To borrow from Joanna Russ (all martial artists should read, "Alyx," "The Female Man," and, "How To Suppress Women's Writing," the latter of which--nice bit of irony!--was during the 1980s the only one of Russ' many books actually in print), how nice to be an expert on things that never actually happened, when the fact is that there is an epidemic of older men getting girls pregnant, of men beating women, of men ducking out on their kids in this country. Women do call and make these complaints, you know. And they get ignored, or shuffled off by a power structure that's so busy waving its **** around the planet that it has no time for such minor issues.

3. if you demand that everybody follow YOUR rules about sex, about contraception, about abortion, and then you stick women and kids with the consequences of your demands, what would you call this?

4. Gary Is Right.

 

[Cryozombie]

Well, that was informative.

 

[Tgace]

When it comes to abortion its a whole new set of rules apparently. Is abortion an "all or nothing" issue? If you oppose some issues are you cast into the "pro-life" camp??

 

[Tgace]

As a man I refuse to be scared off the issue by the whole "youre a man, youre not entitled to an opinion" thing. Part of the issue involves human life (and the debate over when it starts, when its "viable" etc. we all went around that issue on another thread...), male and female. So we are all entitled to an "opinion". Just because I may say "youre wrong" is miles from blocking a clinic or spitting on people going into one.

 

[rmcrobertson]

Oh, my goodness no. You're a man--you're certainly entitled to an opinion. And you're entitled to have that opinion explained as the thin veneer over patriarchy it is. Just as women are--inasmuch as so many of these threads rely upon the presumption of investigating women's irresponsibility as the sine qua non of the Decline and Fall of Western Civ.

Or, you might try reading the books mentioned before being so all-fired certain that they're beyond you.

Gotta go--got some new Eastwood movies to watch.

 

[Tgace]

Having read many myself (believe it or not), most books on social/political issues are just somebody elses "opinions". Better written and published. I would bet somebody (who cared to) could throw counter books and authors right back at you. Why dont YOU just argue their points as you have obviously read them all? Save the whole "do your own research and come back to me" schitck for the university. Been there, heard that, have the diploma. Read some Ann Coulter and get back to me later......

 

[Melissa426]

Read some Ann Coulter and get back to me later......

1. Tgace, As much as I respect you, that would be more punishment than one stringently left-leaning liberal like McRobertson could bear.
2. He might stroke out, and then MT's study room would suffer an immeasurable loss.
3. If some believe that allowing 13 y.o.'s to have abortions without their parents consent is supporting women's rights, I appreciate their efforts, however misguided.

Peace,
Melissa

 

[Ray]

I don't recall ever hearing either side in an abortion debate state that abortion was a desirable, good thing.

 

[rmcrobertson]

1. Still not a liberal. And don't confuse real argument with unbalanced emotion.

2. Ah yes, Ann Coulter. a) talk about the survival of classical conversion neurosis in contemporary public behavior! not since Camille Paglia...; b) by all means, rely on Ann Coulter for the shape of your arguments and the sources of your "facts." Talk about bringing a scout's penknife to a gunfight....

3. I see it remains a lot easier to reject arguments as "irrelevant," or "digressive," (odd, since digressing into guy stuff like food and beer is so often part of these threads), or to claim that one is being victimized by those CRUEL, America-HATING, man-eating lesbian feminists than it is to actually deal with the discussion.

4. Who exactly was it who argued that 13-year-olds having abortions was a Good Thing? And who argued that it was a Good Thing to have kids running around behind their parents' backs?

 

[Ray]

4. Who exactly was it who argued that 13-year-olds having abortions was a Good Thing? And who argued that it was a Good Thing to have kids running around behind their parents' backs?

Awesome point

 

[Tgace]

2. Ah yes, Ann Coulter. a) talk about the survival of classical conversion neurosis in contemporary public behavior! not since Camille Paglia...; b) by all means, rely on Ann Coulter for the shape of your arguments and the sources of your "facts." Talk about bringing a scout's penknife to a gunfight....

Uhhh..that was kinda my point. Any knucklehead can write a book. Throwing out "read this book and get back to me" as a debate tactic is kinda silly....