Court Declines to Review Abortion Law
- Thread starter ginshun
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Those circumstances are specific and should be taken into account when making the laws around this issue. Now the contextual considerations of abuse, abandonment, violence and victim realistically have to be addressed. I agree.Feisty Mouse said:
Fear plays a big part in everyone's life to varying degrees, the lessons on the best way to deal with that fear and the pressure of crisis is what I think is just as important in situations like this. The tragedy is when life deals some people a really bad hand.
Using rational thought, communcation, problem solving, community/family resources/counsel, and personal stress management skills are things that I try to pass on to students in my public and martial arts classes.
I always tell students in my English class that ELA (English Lang. Arts) are about bending people to your will or recognizing that people are trying to bend you to their will. Being good at doing that in an ethical way, with solid skills requires all of the above that I mentioned. Being good at recognizing when it is being done to you (and whether it is ethical or not) requires the same above mentioned. That way my class isn't just about Reading and Writing but about life application.
Aw, c'mon, Tom. You know my reference. If we're going to tell young girls what they can and can't do with their baby-making bodies, why aren't we telling boys what they can and can't do with their baby-making bodies?Tgace said:
It seems to me that, since no baby can be produced without a sperm meeting an egg, that sperm should probably be controlled too. So, let's legislate 13-year-old testes at the same time we legislate 13-year-old uterii (gr? sp?).
Tgace
Grandmaster
IMO its an issue of where is the line of parental responsibility is drawn. Make it a consistant age. If we are going to say 18 is the age where my kid can make his/her own decisions and I have no legal responsibility or liability for their actions fine.
This, to me, is more about all the "politics" around abortion than it is about any consistant principles of the parent/child relationship as seen in the eyes of the law.
This, to me, is more about all the "politics" around abortion than it is about any consistant principles of the parent/child relationship as seen in the eyes of the law.
Flatlander
Grandmaster
I'm going to chime in here and say that for once, I'm not sure where I stand on this issue.
For me, the real problem is that in looking at this from the perspective of "these girls aren't mature enough to decide reasonably whether or not they should undergo an abortion", we run into another problem; if they're not mature enough to decide, how can they be mature enough to become a parent?
Then, to further the dilemma, how can anyone else lay claim to the ability to make that decision for them? I respect all people's right to decide what happens to their body.
I don't think that this is an issue that can be equitably legislated. There are too many intracacies to the issue - each individual case will have its own particular and subjective dynamic, creating specific factors that need to be considered.
Ultimately, the best thing that we can do as a society is to provide all the necessary access to education, consultation, and counselling to girls faced with these types of issues, and trust that they will make an informed choice. Otherwise, we are dictating instead of listening. We are controlling instead of nurturing.
There are certainly some things that I know I'm not in favour of.
-We cannot force a child to carry a fetus to term.
-We cannot force a child to undergo an abortion.
-We cannot enforce abstaining from intercourse at any age.
-We cannot believe that keeping children in the dark about sexual matters promotes sexual health.
For me, the real problem is that in looking at this from the perspective of "these girls aren't mature enough to decide reasonably whether or not they should undergo an abortion", we run into another problem; if they're not mature enough to decide, how can they be mature enough to become a parent?
Then, to further the dilemma, how can anyone else lay claim to the ability to make that decision for them? I respect all people's right to decide what happens to their body.
I don't think that this is an issue that can be equitably legislated. There are too many intracacies to the issue - each individual case will have its own particular and subjective dynamic, creating specific factors that need to be considered.
Ultimately, the best thing that we can do as a society is to provide all the necessary access to education, consultation, and counselling to girls faced with these types of issues, and trust that they will make an informed choice. Otherwise, we are dictating instead of listening. We are controlling instead of nurturing.
There are certainly some things that I know I'm not in favour of.
-We cannot force a child to carry a fetus to term.
-We cannot force a child to undergo an abortion.
-We cannot enforce abstaining from intercourse at any age.
-We cannot believe that keeping children in the dark about sexual matters promotes sexual health.
Dan, I completely agree.
Tom, lLegislating this is so complicated and though I respect you much, I have a really hard time coloring this issue black or white - aligning all decision making and all abilities with one age.
Tom, lLegislating this is so complicated and though I respect you much, I have a really hard time coloring this issue black or white - aligning all decision making and all abilities with one age.
Tgace
Grandmaster
If we are going to bypass the legal responsibility for a child it should be done in a legal manner...through the court. After doing a little research Ive found that most states do, in fact, require at least one parents permission to perform an abortion. Unless the child obtains a judicial bypass.
http://www.crlp.org/st_law_notification.html
http://www.crlp.org/st_law_notification.html
M
Melissa426
Guest
We absolutely can not, nor should we.Flatlander said:
So what's the solution?
1. Keep abortion legal
2. All abortions for underage women require parental consent.
a. Exceptions can be made in event of rape, sexual assault,
incest, or fear of harm if parents were to be notified.
----In these cases, abortion clinics provde a social worker to ascertain
the validity of her claims, the level of maturity, and intellectual capacity
of the minor, to determine whether the minor fully understands
and can consent to the procedure.
Thoughts?
Peace,
Melissa
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rmcrobertson
Guest
Ah, those left leaning judges! Ah those ranting leftists!! Ah, those "irrelevant," arguments!
Funny how folks are all in favor of personal choice--unless of course it's personal choice for girls and women. Odd that they're against government interference in, say, gun ownership--but boy (and I do mean boy) should somebody gay try to get married, or somebody try to get access to gynecological care and contraception, well HEY! we need some bills passed.
And funny that a simple comparasion seems so invisible to the naked something or other--oh, let's say the, "eye." I'd consider that symptomatic, and revealing of what the real issue is: control of the family, and control of women.
Heaven forfend--and I do mean the right-wing Protestant "heaven"--that girls, women and families should work this out among themselves, and the government should butt out.
Three questions:
a) shouldn't the boy and his family be loaded with an equal responsibility? assuming that it is a, "boy," and not some adult, or parent, or close relative? (answer: because women are typically held to be the repositories of men's morality in this culture)
b) why's it a good idea to have the government stepping in to ANY reproductive choice issue? (answer: because you've bought into the fundamentalist Christian notion that human life begins at conception)
c) no chance that the currency of this issue has anything to do with the right-wing clowns who're currently running the country, is there? (no, none at all)
Funny how folks are all in favor of personal choice--unless of course it's personal choice for girls and women. Odd that they're against government interference in, say, gun ownership--but boy (and I do mean boy) should somebody gay try to get married, or somebody try to get access to gynecological care and contraception, well HEY! we need some bills passed.
And funny that a simple comparasion seems so invisible to the naked something or other--oh, let's say the, "eye." I'd consider that symptomatic, and revealing of what the real issue is: control of the family, and control of women.
Heaven forfend--and I do mean the right-wing Protestant "heaven"--that girls, women and families should work this out among themselves, and the government should butt out.
Three questions:
a) shouldn't the boy and his family be loaded with an equal responsibility? assuming that it is a, "boy," and not some adult, or parent, or close relative? (answer: because women are typically held to be the repositories of men's morality in this culture)
b) why's it a good idea to have the government stepping in to ANY reproductive choice issue? (answer: because you've bought into the fundamentalist Christian notion that human life begins at conception)
c) no chance that the currency of this issue has anything to do with the right-wing clowns who're currently running the country, is there? (no, none at all)
Tgace
Grandmaster
Everything is a right wing conspiracy...just because youre paranoid dosent mean everybody isnt out to get you..the truth is out there...anybody concerned about their children getting abortions without their knowledge must be some man who wants to control womens bodies....
whatever.
whatever.
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rmcrobertson
Guest
You're absolutely right!
I've seen the light! The mere fact that we have a President who's an avowed enemy of Roe V. Wade, that he got elected with total support by fundamentalist and right-wingers who loudly announce every day that they expect him to Do Something about abortion and related issues, that groups like the ACLJ have loudly announced that abortion for minors is one of their "wedge issues," to overturn Roe v. Wade, that all these folks explicitly tell everybody again and again and again that they want to roll back the clock so that women resume their traditional (i.e. mostly fictional) roles, that the issues of reproductive choice have been being fought out between the great majority of American women and fundamentalist and right-wing men for about 150 years now, why NONE of this has the slightest thing to do with passing a law that allows the government to step into individual choices and private family business.
Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain...
I've seen the light! The mere fact that we have a President who's an avowed enemy of Roe V. Wade, that he got elected with total support by fundamentalist and right-wingers who loudly announce every day that they expect him to Do Something about abortion and related issues, that groups like the ACLJ have loudly announced that abortion for minors is one of their "wedge issues," to overturn Roe v. Wade, that all these folks explicitly tell everybody again and again and again that they want to roll back the clock so that women resume their traditional (i.e. mostly fictional) roles, that the issues of reproductive choice have been being fought out between the great majority of American women and fundamentalist and right-wing men for about 150 years now, why NONE of this has the slightest thing to do with passing a law that allows the government to step into individual choices and private family business.
Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain...
OP
OP
ginshun
2nd Black Belt
The only people that I am suggeesting have anything to do with the limiting of a young girls freedoms, are that young girls parents. It is a hard concept to grasp I know. Parents being responsible for there children, oh the humanity!!
Personally I think Mellisa's ideas on the subject are pretty good.
But then again I suppose that we could just let the girls do whatever they want, and never have to tell there parents anything. Which seems to pretty much be the opinion of a couple of people in this thread.
One more time, why should the parents of a girl have to give permission for her to have a knee surgery (or any other surgery), but not for her to have an abortion? I must have missed all the left wingers responses to that one, either that or none of them answered, maybe I have to read a little closer.
And another thing, why do people keep bringing up a girl getting raped or being sexually abused by her father as a reason not to let parents know about her getting an abortion? In your opinions is just getting a secret abortion and not doing anything else, or telling anyone else about it the best option for the girl in those situations? I sure as heck don't think so. If either of those things happen, I would think the best option would be to go to the police, in which case the parents are sure going to find out about it.
But I suppose that she might be too embarassed to tell anyone, in which case a secret abortion is the best possible option right?
Especially since she is only 13.michaeledward
Grandmaster
THREAD GANK
I'm exceedingly glad of two facts:
1 - I don't need to tell my parents about my Viagra perscription.
2 - I don't need to go to a 'stand-alone' clinic to pick up my Cialis perscription.
(I wonder how popular these drugs would be in those circumstances)
END THREAD GANK
I'm exceedingly glad of two facts:
1 - I don't need to tell my parents about my Viagra perscription.
2 - I don't need to go to a 'stand-alone' clinic to pick up my Cialis perscription.
(I wonder how popular these drugs would be in those circumstances)
END THREAD GANK
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rmcrobertson
Guest
Beyond pointing out that you're arguing for judicial bypass, WHICH IS WHAT MOST STATES HAVE NOW, because NO surgical procedures can be done on minors without parental consent anyway...
And beyond my actually saying that this was an issue of men wishing to retain control over women and the family...well...if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck.
I don't suppose you'd care to discuss the points I raised about WHY this issue is even coming up?
And beyond my actually saying that this was an issue of men wishing to retain control over women and the family...well...if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck.
I don't suppose you'd care to discuss the points I raised about WHY this issue is even coming up?
Melissa ~ sounds good to me
robertson ~ some - perhaps lots of - folks just don't understand how invasive it is to have other people's - strangers, folks who will never meet them - moral and/or religious decisions weigh on someone else's life and body and future until it actually happens to them.
robertson ~ some - perhaps lots of - folks just don't understand how invasive it is to have other people's - strangers, folks who will never meet them - moral and/or religious decisions weigh on someone else's life and body and future until it actually happens to them.
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