Court Declines to Review Abortion Law

[Feisty Mouse]

I just thought of a discussion I was part of, on another online forum. Interesting how it relates to this one. This is kind of related, but somewhat obliquely, so please skip or ignore this if you're not interested.

One woman posted about her current boyfriend. She and he both have kids (hers - about 19, his - 14). His daughter went to him, completely distraught - she was pregnant. It was not mentioned in the thread if she had been assaulted, or had simply engaged in sex very young. What was interesting to me - and heartbreaking - was that the 14-year-old wanted to have the baby (although she is still a child herself), but her father went and somehow (I have no idea how) obtained "morning-after" pills that he was going to force her to take.

Again, I have no idea if this young girl would even be a candidate for the "morning-after" pills at that point, etc. And having a parent decide what meds to dispense, without getting medical attention, scares me.

The woman who posted and her boyfriend ended up getting into a fight, because she wanted him to listen to his daughter's wishes about keeping the baby.

Sort of the opposite situation - a parent who did not want to be a parent to his daughter's child (would a 14-year-old really be raising her baby on her own? impossible), whereas the daughter wanted to keep her pregnancy, and be a mom at 14 or 15.

I think she ended up keeping her pregnancy. I was just relieved that she didn't start taking pills inappropriately.

Anyways, this just occured to me as another example of when a parent's and pregnant child's decisions may conflict - but opposite to the way that has been mentioned here.

Sad, in any case.

 

[ginshun]

Interesting point to consider:

By age 45, 2 in 5 American women have had at least one abortion.

You know people that have had abortions.

Wow. That seems really high. What is the source for that?

 

[ginshun]

I just thought of a discussion I was part of, on another online forum. Interesting how it relates to this one. This is kind of related, but somewhat obliquely, so please skip or ignore this if you're not interested.

One woman posted about her current boyfriend. She and he both have kids (hers - about 19, his - 14). His daughter went to him, completely distraught - she was pregnant. It was not mentioned in the thread if she had been assaulted, or had simply engaged in sex very young. What was interesting to me - and heartbreaking - was that the 14-year-old wanted to have the baby (although she is still a child herself), but her father went and somehow (I have no idea how) obtained "morning-after" pills that he was going to force her to take.

Again, I have no idea if this young girl would even be a candidate for the "morning-after" pills at that point, etc. And having a parent decide what meds to dispense, without getting medical attention, scares me.

The woman who posted and her boyfriend ended up getting into a fight, because she wanted him to listen to his daughter's wishes about keeping the baby.

Sort of the opposite situation - a parent who did not want to be a parent to his daughter's child (would a 14-year-old really be raising her baby on her own? impossible), whereas the daughter wanted to keep her pregnancy, and be a mom at 14 or 15.

I think she ended up keeping her pregnancy. I was just relieved that she didn't start taking pills inappropriately.

Anyways, this just occured to me as another example of when a parent's and pregnant child's decisions may conflict - but opposite to the way that has been mentioned here.

Sad, in any case.

I was thinking about that situation all the way through this thread. Everyone seemed to think that the parents would automatically be predisposted to force her to keep the child. What happens in the opposite case, such as the one mentioned? Should a parent be able to force a child into an abortion? How about an adoption? If not, then all the things that the people saying whould ruin the next 20 years of the girls life, is actually more applied to ruining the parents. Like fiesty said, a 14 year old sure isn't going to be raising a child on her own.

Don't read me wrong here, I don't think an abortion should be able to be forced on a child. I am not so sure about an adoption though. Puts an interesting spin on the issue at least.


An incidentally, if the girl came to her father crying about being pregnant, then I am relatively sure that she is not a candidate for the moring after pill, as it is only an opption for the first 72 (I think) hours after the sexual encounter that would cause pregnancy. If she is already pregnant, then it is too late.

 

[raedyn]

The morning after pill is only effective in the first 72 hours after intercourse. The sooner, the better. It is (approximately) a massive dose of the same stuff in regular birth control pills. In some places (the province of Saskatchewan, for instance) it is available without a presciption from a pharmacist.

There is also an "abortion pill" that is not currently available in the US, but is in use in Canada and much of Europe. It is only usable for 49 - 63 days (depending on what country you are in) after the onset of the last menstrual period.

RE: Feisty's story the other possibility is that the girl was mistaken about her pregnancy. Unfortunately, there are still come very ignorant kids out there who believe that you can become pregnant by kissing or oral sex or various other misinformation. There is a reason we need good sex ed in our schools.

(the 2 in 5 women have had an abortion number comes from The Alan Guttmacher Institute. For more about them go here: http://www.agi-usa.org/about/index.html)

 

[rmcrobertson]

If you can deny first to girls and then to women the right to decide whether or not they deliver a baby on the grounds that they a) may not be thinking straight, b) are taking a human life, I don't see why you can't deny first to boys and then to men the right to decide whether or not they have a simple test or two on the grounds that they a) may not be thinking straight, b) will be taking their own life if they skip such testing.

As for the claims that, gee, just a little, "impartial," counseling--would this be the impartial counseling pushed by Hizzoner and his Administration, the one in which counselors aren't allowed to mention abortion or any "morning-after," pill? The impartial counseling you get from sex ed teachers who have been foreced to teach, "abstinence only?" The impartial counseling that directs girls and women only to anti-abortion support agencies? The counseling filled with the lies about health risks? The counseling that isn't even available because of the right-wing attacks on Planned Parenthood, and the more-or-less open right-wing support for all sorts of attacks on women's clinics?

Most of these arguments are just the same old same old that was pointed out by every woman who's posted on this thread: what's really at stake is whether or not men maintain their control over women's reproductive organs.

 

[ginshun]

(the 2 in 5 women have had an abortion number comes from The Alan Guttmacher Institute. For more about them go here: http://www.agi-usa.org/about/index.html)

I guess I will have to read further into it, but I am interested in exactly how they came to that stat. Maybe I am just out of it, but I find it pretty hard to believe that 40% of all American women will have an abortion by age 45.

Maybe though.

 

[ginshun]

If you can deny first to girls and then to women the right to decide whether or not they deliver a baby on the grounds that they a) may not be thinking straight, b) are taking a human life, I don't see why you can't deny first to boys and then to men the right to decide whether or not they have a simple test or two on the grounds that they a) may not be thinking straight, b) will be taking their own life if they skip such testing.

As for the claims that, gee, just a little, "impartial," counseling--would this be the impartial counseling pushed by Hizzoner and his Administration, the one in which counselors aren't allowed to mention abortion or any "morning-after," pill? The impartial counseling you get from sex ed teachers who have been foreced to teach, "abstinence only?" The impartial counseling that directs girls and women only to anti-abortion support agencies? The counseling filled with the lies about health risks? The counseling that isn't even available because of the right-wing attacks on Planned Parenthood, and the more-or-less open right-wing support for all sorts of attacks on women's clinics?

Most of these arguments are just the same old same old that was pointed out by every woman who's posted on this thread: what's really at stake is whether or not men maintain their control over women's reproductive organs.

Why must you insist on twisting this issue around? I don't even think anyone in this thread has said that abortion should not be legal. All people are saying is that if a 14 year old wants to have an abortion, she should have to get her parents OK, or at the very least tell them. Not the same thing as outlawing abortion IMO, but I am probably just some right wing, prodastant fundamentalist, kook who can't see what is really happening right?

 

[raedyn]

Maybe I am just out of it, but I find it pretty hard to believe that 40% of all American women will have an abortion by age 45.

I don't find it very far fetched. Abortion is one of the most common medical procedures performed in the US, but because it's such an emotional firecracker nobody is talking about it. I expect that many women keep it to themselves for fear of social repercussions.
Seriously think about it - if you had an abortion (pretend you're a woman) would you tell anyone that you didn't absolutely have to? It's a pretty taboo topic.

 

[Ray]

By age 45, 2 in 5 American women have had at least one abortion.

Statistics, oh no. I recently read on a legal site that in America, a woman is raped every two minutes; a comedian once added to that statistic: "and, boy, is she sore."

While I think it was a terrible joke, it says a lot about statistics.

 

[Feisty Mouse]

Of the friend(s) I have who have had abortions - no, of course they don't talk about it openly. I only found out about one friend because she was in dire straits, and told me. It's not a decision anyone parades around, really. I believe the rates of abortion in some other countries like France are much lower than here, because walk-in clinics do pregnancy tests and dispense "morning-after" pills more readily. I will have to look for a report, though, to link to.

 

[raedyn]

All people are saying is that if a 14 year old wants to have an abortion, she should have to get her parents OK, or at the very least tell them.

But please do no suggest that everyone in this thread is saying that's reasonable. I haven't decided where I fall on this issue.

Robertson is currently getting you all riled up with a logical fallacy called "slippery slope". He is assuming that if we tell 14 year olds "you can't choose for yourself" then we will tell all women that regardless of their age. It doesn't neccesarily follow. However, while I agree with you that it's not inevitable, I think he makes a valid point that there are people with the agenda to deny girls the right to choose as a step on the way to denying women the right to choose. So it's not inevitable, but the idea IS being championed by the same groups that would deny the choice to all women.

I'd like to repeat what Shesulsa said earlier. Abortions happen whether they are legal or not. But they are safer for women when they are in medical clinics done by licenced doctors (IE: legal). When I was in high school I knew a 15 year old girl who got pregnant and was afraid of telling her parents so her boyfriend tried to abort it himself by repeatedly punching her in the stomach as hard as he could. This is dangerous. Deuce is right, having an abortion purely out of fear is probably not right, but neither is trying to Do-It-Yourself purely out of fear.

 

[raedyn]

Statistics, oh no. I recently read on a legal site that in America, a woman is raped every two minutes; a comedian once added to that statistic: "and, boy, is she sore."

While I think it was a terrible joke, it says a lot about statistics.

No, it doesn't. It says someone made a tasteless joke, but nothing about statistics.

 

[Ray]

No, it doesn't. It says someone made a tasteless joke, but nothing about statistics.

I think it highlights the way people sometimes use statistics to bend facts.

 

[ginshun]

I didn't mean to imply that everyone thought that way, but I know I do.


By the way, I looked it up, and there have been ~34 million abortions in the US since they were leagalized in 1973. I am trying to figure out how many women could have possibly had an abortion in that time period. If you figure that women in who were bewteen 15 and 45 in 1973 could have had abortions, and now anybody 15 and 45 can, so if I find the number of women who are bewteen ages 15 and 75 now, does that give me my total that possibly could have had abortions in that time? As a rough estimate at least?

I am trying to get it straight in my head, and that seems right, but I am not sure.

15 is just a random cut-off, and 45 is the upper limit in the stat, so ya, that is just assumptions.

 

[Feisty Mouse]

No, it doesn't. It says someone made a tasteless joke, but nothing about statistics.

Tasteless? Disgusting.

 

[ginshun]

If my assumptions are valid, which I am not really sure they are, but anyway here we go.

according to the US census

~215 million people in the US between 15 and 75, half of wich are women.

~107,500,000 women between 15 and 75. (our possible abortion pool)

~34,000,000 abortions = about 32% of them have had abortions. With another assumption of only 1 abortion per women.



So assuming all my rough numbers and assumptions are right, the 2 in 5 stat (40%) is a little high, but not too bad. Believable at least, definately within the margin of error allowed for with all my wild assumptions.

 

[ginshun]

by the way, 80% of all statistics read on internet web boards are made up by the person posting them.

Zing!!

 

[raedyn]

as of 1994 in the US:
6.3 million pregnancies per year. of these, 48% are unintended
so
3 million unintended pregnancies per year. of these 47% end in abortion.

in 2000 in the US:
- 1.31 million abortions were performed
- 2.1% of women aged 15 - 44 had an abortion

from
http://www.guttmacher.org/presentations/abort_slides.pdf
(their sources are listed here: http://www.guttmacher.org/presentations/references.html)

So my question is why are there so many unintended pregnancies? Nearly half! If we could prevent more of those unintended pregnancies we could drastically cut the abortion rate.

 

[ginshun]

Abortion Statistics - World

• In 54 countries (61% of the world population) abortions are legal.
• In 97 countries (39% of the world population) abortions are illegal.
• There are approximately 46 million abortions conducted eacy year, 20 million of them obtained illegally.
• There are approximately 126,000 abortions conducted each day.

Abortion Statistics - U.S.

• Approximately 1,370,000 abortions occur annually in the U.S. according to the Alan Guttmacher Institute. Click here to see the approximate number of abortions in the U.S. per year from 1973-1996. In 2001, 1.31 million abortions took place.
• 88% of abortions occur during the first 6 to 12 weeks of pregnancy.
• 60% of abortions are performed on women who already have one or more children.
• 47% of abortions are performed on women who have already had one or more abortions.
• 43% of women will have had at least one abortion by the time they are 45 years old.

Abortion Statistics - Demographics Age - The majority of women getting an abortion are young

• 52% are younger than 25 years old and 19% are teenagers. The abortion rate is highest for those women aged 18 to 19 (56 per 1,000 in 1992.)
• Marriage - 51% of women who are unmarried when they become pregnant will receive an abortion. Unmarried women are 6 times more likely than married women to have an abortion. 67% of abortions are from women who have never been married.
• Race - 63% of abortion patients are white, however, black women are more than 3 times as likely to have an abortion, and Hispanic women are 2.5 times as likely.
• Religion - 43% of women getting an abortion claimed they were Protestant, while 27% claimed they were Catholic.

Abortion Statistics - Decisions to Have an Abortion (U.S.)

• 25.5% of women deciding to have an abortion want to postpone childbearing.
• 21.3% of women cannot afford a baby.
• 14.1% of women have a relationship issue or their partner does not want a child.
• 12.2% of women are too young (their parents or others object to the pregnancy.)
• 10.8% of women feel a child will disrupt their education or career.
• 7.9% of women want no (more) children.
• 3.3% of women have an abortion due to a risk to fetal health.
• 2.8% of women have an abortion due to a risk to maternal health.

Abortion Statistics - Using Contraception (U.S.)

• 54% of women having an abortion said they used some form of contraception during the month they became pregnant.
• 90% of women who are at risk for unplanned pregnancies are using contraception
• 8% of women having an abortion say they have never used contraception.
• It is possible that up to 43% of the decline in abortion from 1994-2000 can be attributed to using emergency contraception.

Abortion Statistics - Pro-Life vs. Pro-Choice

• According to a USA Today, CNN Gallup Poll in May, 1999 - 16% of Americans believe abortion should be legal for any reason at any time during pregnancy and 55% of American believe abortion should be legal only to save the life of the mother or in cases of rape or incest.
• According to a Gallup Poll in January, 2001 - People who considered themselves to be pro-life rose from 33% to 43% in the past 5 years, and people who considered themselves to be pro-choice declined from 56% to 48%.

The majority of these statistics were taken from The Alan Guttmacher Institute.


http://womensissues.about.com/cs/abortionstats/a/aaabortionstats.htm



Take that!!

 

[Tgace]

Why must you insist on twisting this issue around? I don't even think anyone in this thread has said that abortion should not be legal. All people are saying is that if a 14 year old wants to have an abortion, she should have to get her parents OK, or at the very least tell them. Not the same thing as outlawing abortion IMO, but I am probably just some right wing, prodastant fundamentalist, kook who can't see what is really happening right?

From: http://etext.library.adelaide.edu.au/s/schopenhauer/arthur/controversy/chapter3.html

If you find that you are being worsted, you can make a diversion—that is, you can suddenly begin to talk of something else, as though it had a bearing on the matter in dispute, and afforded an argument against your opponent. This may be done without presumption if the diversion has, in fact, some general bearing on the matter; but it is a piece of impudence if it has nothing to do with the case, and is only brought in by way of attacking your opponent.