conversation is sparring not kata.

Ok back to this because i find it quite a strange statement to direct towards kata.

can someone explain how it is valid?

"•Has no mutually prescribed rule set that both the victim and the attacker(s) have previously agreed upon to use"

This would be a description of kata?
 
drop bear said:
Ok back to this because i find it quite a strange statement to direct towards kata.

can someone explain how it is valid?

"•Has no mutually prescribed rule set that both the victim and the attacker(s) have previously agreed upon to use"

This would be a description of kata?
Click to expand...
It would be a property of Kata.
 
drop bear said:
In sparring you have an idea that you can test against another person. Who may have the same idea. Or a different one.

it works or it doesn't. If it doesn't you can discard it or tweek it. Retest the idea with more sparring. Trial and error.

kata is given to you by a person of authority requiring you to follow their instructions. Because it is the way it is done and the way everybody else is doing it.

it might work it might not. That is not the point. It is not up to you to test the theory or disagree. It is up to you to be educated and follow the movements as instructed.

but that is not conversation.
Click to expand...

Soooo....what is the conversation? Sparring? Kata? This is just another topic that is the same as others, just worded different. But I'll play along. We are of course, talking about 2 different things. I don't know about anyone else, but I don't now, nor have I ever, sparred, with any kata that I know. Both, IMO, have their pros and cons. Everyone will have their own opinions on the topic, and that's fine. I do both, and will continue to do both.
 
drop bear said:
Ok back to this because i find it quite a strange statement to direct towards kata.

can someone explain how it is valid?

"•Has no mutually prescribed rule set that both the victim and the attacker(s) have previously agreed upon to use"

This would be a description of kata?
Click to expand...

In simplistic terms, a kata is a collection of individual techniques, principles and strategies. As such, a kata can be broken down into specific drills (bunkai). These drills (bunkai) can have more than one application.

The reason that a prescribed rule set isn't required is because a kata, and by logical extension the bunkai, mirrors a real world altercation. Real world altercations don't go by a prescribed rule set.

As an example, let's say that you and I are going to train together. We have two options available for this particular training session. We can either spar or we can do bunkai from a kata. Let's take a look at both to see the similarities as well as the differences.

If we choose to spar, we must both abide by the same rule set. It wouldn't make for much of a sparring session if you were limited to WTF TKD rules i.e. you can kick and punch but you must remain standing, whereas I use a MMA rule set that allows me to take you to the ground and/or submit you with a lock. That is why two people sparring abide by the same rule set. And though sparring can be useful, to a degree, it does not reflect the totality of a real world fight because of the limitations of sparring. In a sparring session I can't try to de-escalate you and/or you can't run away from the encounter. In a sparring session I can't pull a weapon and you can't have two of your buddies help you. And so on and so forth as I've described several times.

If we choose to train a bunkai from a kata, then we aren't limited necessarily to a specific rule set. For example, the first bunkai from Pinan Shodan can be trained with you throwing a punch at me. We can also train this bunkai if you and I are grappling. We can also train this bunkai if we're on the ground. We can train this bunkai if you're intention is to take me to the ground but my intention is to place you in an arm lock to facilitate moving you from point A to point B or to inflict pain compliance. This bunkai can be trained as part of a free-flowing scenario based drill that incorporates multiple options. A bunkai can be used to train, by rote, a specific application for the purposes of learning the application or it can be used in a more advanced way against a free-flowing attack. Using bunkai from a kata, you can pull a weapon or have a buddy or two join in. Some bunkai will be more useful than others depending on the situation. And I can tailor them to the specifics of the training session. Am I working on ground stuff today? Great, bunkai for the win. Am I working on stand up? Great, bunkai for the win. Do I want to go all-out-free-form-no-rules scenario based drills? Great, bunkai for the win.

Although sparring has a limited use, I can't use it for all the things I can use a bunkai for. If sparring were to use de-escalation, escape/evasion, conventional/improvised weapons, multiple attackers, multiple locations etc then it would no longer be sparring, it would be a scenario based drill. I can take one bunkai or several from the same kata and insert them into a scenario based drill. I can use a bunkai regardless of what rules the attacker(s) may or may not be using. Again, using the first bunkai in Pinan Shodan as an example, you can be unarmed or armed. You can be trying to punch me or we can be on the ground. We can be on a stairwell or in an elevator or in a car. The venue is immaterial and doesn't dictate the methods that can be used.

Does this help to explain the differences more clearly to you?

In regards to sparring in-and-of-itself...

If it is going to be useful for self defense;

  • Spar in different lighting conditions i.e. full light, dim light, no light. Statistically more attacks occur in dim light conditions.
  • Spar on different surfaces. It's one thing to spar on a soft mat, quite another to spar on grass, a slope, wet/slippery asphalt etc.
  • Spar wearing street clothes. It's one thing grappling in shorts and a T-shirt and quite another wearing a jacket that limits your limbs movements.
  • Spar outside the school i.e. in an alley, in the parking lot, inside a car!
None of this equals scenario based training that uses all the elements of sparring plus all the rest....but it is a step in the right direction.

In regards to bunkai, lighting doesn't matter, the venue doesn't matter, specific clothing isn't required etc.
 
MJS said:
Soooo....what is the conversation? Sparring? Kata? This is just another topic that is the same as others, just worded different. But I'll play along. We are of course, talking about 2 different things. I don't know about anyone else, but I don't now, nor have I ever, sparred, with any kata that I know. Both, IMO, have their pros and cons. Everyone will have their own opinions on the topic, and that's fine. I do both, and will continue to do both.
Click to expand...

this thread is mostly ego sparring. I think people may have lost the ability to have a discussion.

it is like they have been saying this stuff and nobody ever turns around and says. "that just doesn't make sense"

after being in an echo chamber for long enough you can wind up believing anything is right.
 
Kong Soo Do said:
In simplistic terms, a kata is a collection of individual techniques, principles and strategies. As such, a kata can be broken down into specific drills (bunkai). These drills (bunkai) can have more than one application.

The reason that a prescribed rule set isn't required is because a kata, and by logical extension the bunkai, mirrors a real world altercation. Real world altercations don't go by a prescribed rule set.

As an example, let's say that you and I are going to train together. We have two options available for this particular training session. We can either spar or we can do bunkai from a kata. Let's take a look at both to see the similarities as well as the differences.

If we choose to spar, we must both abide by the same rule set. It wouldn't make for much of a sparring session if you were limited to WTF TKD rules i.e. you can kick and punch but you must remain standing, whereas I use a MMA rule set that allows me to take you to the ground and/or submit you with a lock. That is why two people sparring abide by the same rule set. And though sparring can be useful, to a degree, it does not reflect the totality of a real world fight because of the limitations of sparring. In a sparring session I can't try to de-escalate you and/or you can't run away from the encounter. In a sparring session I can't pull a weapon and you can't have two of your buddies help you. And so on and so forth as I've described several times.

If we choose to train a bunkai from a kata, then we aren't limited necessarily to a specific rule set. For example, the first bunkai from Pinan Shodan can be trained with you throwing a punch at me. We can also train this bunkai if you and I are grappling. We can also train this bunkai if we're on the ground. We can train this bunkai if you're intention is to take me to the ground but my intention is to place you in an arm lock to facilitate moving you from point A to point B or to inflict pain compliance. This bunkai can be trained as part of a free-flowing scenario based drill that incorporates multiple options. A bunkai can be used to train, by rote, a specific application for the purposes of learning the application or it can be used in a more advanced way against a free-flowing attack. Using bunkai from a kata, you can pull a weapon or have a buddy or two join in. Some bunkai will be more useful than others depending on the situation. And I can tailor them to the specifics of the training session. Am I working on ground stuff today? Great, bunkai for the win. Am I working on stand up? Great, bunkai for the win. Do I want to go all-out-free-form-no-rules scenario based drills? Great, bunkai for the win.

Although sparring has a limited use, I can't use it for all the things I can use a bunkai for. If sparring were to use de-escalation, escape/evasion, conventional/improvised weapons, multiple attackers, multiple locations etc then it would no longer be sparring, it would be a scenario based drill. I can take one bunkai or several from the same kata and insert them into a scenario based drill. I can use a bunkai regardless of what rules the attacker(s) may or may not be using. Again, using the first bunkai in Pinan Shodan as an example, you can be unarmed or armed. You can be trying to punch me or we can be on the ground. We can be on a stairwell or in an elevator or in a car. The venue is immaterial and doesn't dictate the methods that can be used.

Does this help to explain the differences more clearly to you?

In regards to sparring in-and-of-itself...

If it is going to be useful for self defense;

  • Spar in different lighting conditions i.e. full light, dim light, no light. Statistically more attacks occur in dim light conditions.
  • Spar on different surfaces. It's one thing to spar on a soft mat, quite another to spar on grass, a slope, wet/slippery asphalt etc.
  • Spar wearing street clothes. It's one thing grappling in shorts and a T-shirt and quite another wearing a jacket that limits your limbs movements.
  • Spar outside the school i.e. in an alley, in the parking lot, inside a car!
None of this equals scenario based training that uses all the elements of sparring plus all the rest....but it is a step in the right direction.

In regards to bunkai, lighting doesn't matter, the venue doesn't matter, specific clothing isn't required etc.
Click to expand...

ok but how exactly have you remove the rules from your training session?

i do a kata. It is a pre arranged structure. I don't just make up kata. I do it the way it is supposed to be done.

i do bunkai. Which i think would be a resisted drill or step sparing. You punch in a prearranged manner i defend either in a prearranged manner or on the fly. Still according to rules.

In sparring like in conversation the rules do matter. Otherwise we either hurt each other. Or achieve nothing.

in a combat scenario. The rules matter for the same reason.
 
I'll agree with drop bear's last post
a kata is prearranged and conversation is not therefor it is more like sparring with certain rules for being polite being used by all parties. Once the rules for politesse are dedicated it is something else but not kata in any sense and maybe not sparring any more
 

i mean this looks like it is prearranged and following rules.

it also does not look like a conversation.
 
tshadowchaser said:
I'll agree with drop bear's last post
a kata is prearranged and conversation is not therefor it is more like sparring with certain rules for being polite being used by all parties. Once the rules for politesse are dedicated it is something else but not kata in any sense and maybe not sparring any more
Click to expand...

This all started when k man had an issue with being called coy. And i said conversation is like sparring. You get smashed in the head trying something new. It is part of the process. You cant take this stuff to heart.

and turned into an idea that drop bear hates people.
 
drop bear said:

i mean this looks like it is prearranged and following rules.

it also does not look like a conversation.
Click to expand...

With all due respect to whoever is in the video...this is children's karate. Would you defend yourself in a real fight against a violent attacker as demonstrated in this video? I sure wouldn't! So this is not an accurate representation of what I've described previously. This is cookie-cutter kata teaching that does not accurately reflect kata/bunkai trained to its fullest extent.

In other words, if this was kata/bunkai training I'd be agreeing with you. But it isn't and therefore we are comparing apples (this video) to oranges (what I've described above).

drop bear said:
ok but how exactly have you remove the rules from your training session?
Click to expand...

Are you referring to the example I gave above if you and I were training together? If so, allow me to detail it a bit. First, kata can be broken down into bunkai. That much is obvious. If it is bunkai as demonstrated in the video...throw it away. It's useless. Bunkai should be practical and useable. So you can use bunkai (proper bunkai) to teach a novice i.e. slow and methodical so they understand all the concepts and principles being demonstrated. But eventually it needs to be free-flowing like an actual attack. Using Pinan Shodan again, you can use that opening principle standing, grappling or on the ground. Doesn't matter if the attacker is empty handed or holding a baseball bat. So at this level, their aren't any rules that you or the attacker have to abide by during the attack. Now we of course have to have a level of safety involved, but at this level of training your attacker can be cussing you, charging you, trying to hit you or whatever and that principle (Pinan Shodan) can come into play at any time. Not to suggest that only this one principle is to be used of course. That's the beauty of bunkai in that it can be trained singularly to master a concept or as a whole i.e. you use whatever you can use.

Let me ask you this, do you understand the limitations of sparring that I have described to you? Serious question and not sarcastic. Although sparring can be a part of training, do you understand how it can be enhanced (as I've described above) to make it even more useful? Sparring, if using the various things I've described would essentially mirror in many ways the bunkai that I've described. Would you not agree that it would be useful from time to time to turn out/down the lights? Or train outside in a tight spot? Or in winter clothes? Or inside of a car? Would it not be useful, from the perspective of realism to be allowed to talk your way out of the fight before it began? Or to have a conventional or improvised weapon available. All these things add realism and address the students O.O.D.A. loop directly.

The bottom line is that kata/bunkai can be a waste of time, in regards to real fights..or it can be highly beneficial. Sparring, in regards to a real fight can be a waste of time...or it can be highly beneficial. The more closely it mirrors real life the better the student will be prepared. Would you agree with this?
 
Kong Soo Do said:
With all due respect to whoever is in the video...this is children's karate. Would you defend yourself in a real fight against a violent attacker as demonstrated in this video? I sure wouldn't! So this is not an accurate representation of what I've described previously. This is cookie-cutter kata teaching that does not accurately reflect kata/bunkai trained to its fullest extent.

In other words, if this was kata/bunkai training I'd be agreeing with you. But it isn't and therefore we are comparing apples (this video) to oranges (what I've described above).



Are you referring to the example I gave above if you and I were training together? If so, allow me to detail it a bit. First, kata can be broken down into bunkai. That much is obvious. If it is bunkai as demonstrated in the video...throw it away. It's useless. Bunkai should be practical and useable. So you can use bunkai (proper bunkai) to teach a novice i.e. slow and methodical so they understand all the concepts and principles being demonstrated. But eventually it needs to be free-flowing like an actual attack. Using Pinan Shodan again, you can use that opening principle standing, grappling or on the ground. Doesn't matter if the attacker is empty handed or holding a baseball bat. So at this level, their aren't any rules that you or the attacker have to abide by during the attack. Now we of course have to have a level of safety involved, but at this level of training your attacker can be cussing you, charging you, trying to hit you or whatever and that principle (Pinan Shodan) can come into play at any time. Not to suggest that only this one principle is to be used of course. That's the beauty of bunkai in that it can be trained singularly to master a concept or as a whole i.e. you use whatever you can use.

Let me ask you this, do you understand the limitations of sparring that I have described to you? Serious question and not sarcastic. Although sparring can be a part of training, do you understand how it can be enhanced (as I've described above) to make it even more useful? Sparring, if using the various things I've described would essentially mirror in many ways the bunkai that I've described. Would you not agree that it would be useful from time to time to turn out/down the lights? Or train outside in a tight spot? Or in winter clothes? Or inside of a car? Would it not be useful, from the perspective of realism to be allowed to talk your way out of the fight before it began? Or to have a conventional or improvised weapon available. All these things add realism and address the students O.O.D.A. loop directly.

The bottom line is that kata/bunkai can be a waste of time, in regards to real fights..or it can be highly beneficial. Sparring, in regards to a real fight can be a waste of time...or it can be highly beneficial. The more closely it mirrors real life the better the student will be prepared. Would you agree with this?
Click to expand...

sparring happens like that anyway. I trained in a Santa Claus onsie over Christmas.

but otherwise yes and no. If i am sparring hard. I don't want things around that can unnecessarily hurt me. If i am in a car park i would not be sparring hard.

i am not overly effected by the o.o.d.a. Loop. And believe it is the hard sparring that causes a resistance to it. Because of the problem solving element attached.
 
drop bear said:
This all started when k man had an issue with being called coy. And i said conversation is like sparring. You get smashed in the head trying something new. It is part of the process. You cant take this stuff to heart.

and turned into an idea that drop bear hates people.
Click to expand...

I don't think you hate people. I think that perhaps you got off on the wrong foot soon after joining and did a bit to keep digging yourself deeper. But that can be, and should be turned around and you have the opportunity to be a productive member of the community. I'd extend my hand out to you in that regard. :)

In regards to kata, I once thought they were a complete waste of time, effort and energy. But I didn't truly understand them. That changed. Now you have to understand, I started training in 1975. Since 1985 I've been in one uniform or another and, unfortunately, have had to put my hands on people more times than I care to remember. Real world training is a BIG need for me. My life or the life of a partner depends on it. So, having said that, do you think I'd waste my time on something that wouldn't fulfill my primary needs? Just a thought to toss out for consideration.
 
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