Complete System????

[tonbo]

Turner, I have to say I pretty much agree.

My wife, a Tai Chi/Kung Fu practitioner and I have had endless discussions about this. Neither one of us figures that we have a "complete" system, but one thing that she says repeatedly is that I am getting a better education (generally) in the arts than she is. Almost all of the movements--techniques, forms, basics, you name it--are broken down, analyzed, and explained. Rationale behind using each tool, when and where, and each target, again when and where, are gone over and over.

I have studied a bit of Wado Ryu, Iaido, and played a little bit with what my wife has taught me of Tai Chi. I am by no means an expert in any of the arts (doubt I ever will be !!), but the one very strong point I would say that Kenpo has is that it is sometimes on a level with science. There is quite a bit of analyzation that has gone into it, and it is always being refined.

There is no doubt in my mind that, if you stick with an art long enough, you will get to see the "science" behind it, and will be exposed to a great deal of knowledge; however, I think that Kenpo just opens those doors a little earlier than most. Some people still don't read the books, but the library doors are at least open..

Love that car analogy, btw.

Peace--

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by tonbo

There is no doubt in my mind that, if you stick with an art long enough, you will get to see the "science" behind it, and will be exposed to a great deal of knowledge; however, I think that Kenpo just opens those doors a little earlier than most.

I agree that most arts likely are as well-designed but that the design principles are not as obvious.

This raises the question: Is it better to be told those, or find them out? In the short run the former is clearly better, but it isn't as obvious to me that the same is true in the long run--what you figure out on your own through hard work is often better learned than what's taught to you by others! Even if not--and I think I'd have to say that the Kenpo way sounds better than the Oriental mysticism way of "you'll eventually reach enlightenment"--I'm not sure it makes it more complete in the usual sense of "complete" which as I understand means including punching, kicking, joint-locks, throws, groundfighting, weapons, etc. I do imagine it makes it more interesting to study, and easier to learn since you know the principles. (Modern Arnis also explains the principles early, though not in the detail that, I gather, Kenpo does.) I don't see it as a completeness issue, though it's something many other arts don't have at the beginning levels at least (tutoring in the secrets for advanced students does still happen, e.g. in the Japanese systems that still use the licensing system).

 

[Nightingale]

I just read volume 1 of "Infinite Insights into Kenpo" last night. Honestly, it didn't tell me a lot that I hadn't already discovered (besides the history of kenpo stuff). I found a lot of stuff that I realized that I already knew, just from 13 years of doing it. I just hadn't put names to stuff that just comes naturally after training for a few years.

I think that for the most part, students need to be told the obvious stuff, like the principles behind a block/punch/strike, how to do it right (the right way for them) and why it works. Once you know the how and the why, a lot of kenpo theory is open to you to discover on your own. If I had read Mr. Parker's book as a white belt, I would have been like "huh WHAT?" and very confused. However, with a lot of practice behind the theory, I was able to understand the theory much more easily. A white belt would be thinking "why can't everyone just block and punch the same way?" A more advanced belt realizes why not, and that the style needs to be adapted to the person. This is knowledge that comes with time, and with the guidance of a good instructor.

 

[Michael Billings]

OK, let me put it in perspective from someone who did not start in American Kenpo.

I have been studying some type of Martial Arts since 1971, or earlier if you count Judo classes at the YMCA when I was really young.

Shotokan and Tae Kwon Do both had good things to teach. Power, focus, intensity for Shotokan (and just generally being tough at that time.) Tae-Kwon-Do really helped my balance, flexibility and kicking (obviously.) However, in the early 70's to mid 70's it was not a sport. It was never looked at as a sport and was all about fighting back then. I would venture to say that you could still find a few excellent Tae-Kwon-Do teachers around who just are not into Olympic sport fighting.

I got my 1st Black in Chinese Kenpo, yes it took forever, 7 years. I thought I was pretty hot stuff too, given the weapons, number of techniques, and the fact that we had to do at least 5 tournaments between each Brown Belt (which you had for a year between each test.) But it was always put in perspective for me, in no uncertain terms, when I watched my seniors in Chinese Kenpo (Brian Duffy, Gary Swan, or Sigung LaBounty), or Kung-Fu (Buk Sum Kong, Russell Shores, etc.) just totally move with precision and power. It was awsome!

For years Sibok Tom Kelly was the NCKKA's senior advisor from the IKKA. What he taught at camps was so different from what we did, it just seem foreign and difficult to pick up. But awsome and impressive. I think I was just too low ranking to appreciate it, and focused on my own version of Kenpo.

Then along came Dennis Conatser ... you know, there is one in every family, the Black Sheep, the bad seed, the instigator of (heaven forbid) - thinking. I remember his taking what we were doing for crossing talon, and telling us if it was hard, we were doing it wrong. Kenpo was easy, and it makes sense. A 98 lb. woman should be able to execute it effectively, regardless of the opponent. You know what they say, "Feeling is believing"? Well he convinced my teacher and the majority of his senior students. It was downhill from there. Next thing I know we are being asked about switching over to Mr. Parker's Kenpo by Mr. Duffy (all new different techniques - and me already a black belt looking forward to double sabers, hook swords, Quan-do, and 3-sectional staff work.)

We changed over to American Kenpo; Howard Silva moved to Austin for a year and I had the opportunity to train under him in advanced class, often being the only student there. It was like night and day. It was no longer about what you did, but how you did it. I was struggling with being a mechanic of motion - heck, I did not even understand how much I did not understand. Then Mr. Duffy brought in Mr. Parker, Bob Liles, Mr. Downey, we started going to Huk Palanas' seminars. When I left Austin and started training with Tommy Burks, he was focused on how we hit hard and stay relaxed. The list goes on and on.

I ended up being retrained by 3rd Black to learn HOW TO MOVE> A relaxed, whipping type of power, much different from the big circular (& sometimes whipping power of Chinese Kenpo or Hung-Gar.) I thought about relaxed dropping as I rotate and strike, along with rebounding, moving in and engaging a slight, or not so slight now, amount of body momentum in every strike.

I am still just a beginner in a lot of ways. I am always humbled and grateful when I get to see my seniors and "play" with them. I think they liked hitting me because in Texas we thought you were supposed to "thump" when you hit. My body has gotten older, with a lot more injuries from 30+ years in the Art. But it has been worth it to watch the evolution of Martial Arts in the United States in general, and specifically Kenpo. The old Kenpo I did was the Kenpo of the 60's (a Tracy derivation) with a lot of Hung-Gar and Choy Li Fut added. The Kenpo of the 80's was what I was exposed to from Mr. Conatser, Howard Silva, Tom Kelly, Bob Liles, Bryan Hawkins, Jeff Speakman, etc. And of course, Mr. Parker.

The 90"s has been a fragmenting, frustrating, but interesting, time as the Seniors in Kenpo re-mold or tailor the system to fit their paradigms and carry on Mr. Parker's work. Hopefully the Kenpo of the 2000's will continue to grow and retain the power and sophistication that was Mr. Parker.

Yours in Kenpo,
-Michael Billings

 

[tonbo]

Thanks, Mr. Billings. That was nice to read--always nice to see the "good stuff" from those that have been there. Yes, the art has evolved, and hopefully will continue to do so in a productive manner. :asian:

Nightingale, I didn't read any Infinite Insights books at white, but I *did* try to read them at orange. BLEAH. It just didn't work out. I didn't understand much of anything, but I thought that maybe by having them, I would learn. Nope.

Fast forward to blue belt. Tried reading them again, still didn't get all the deep meanings I wanted. I wasn't "cooked" yet. Back on the shelf we both went.

During my 3rd brown phase, I made sure I had the whole collection, and read through them all as critically as I could. I learned quite a bit, and a good deal of it made sense. I had names now for some of the concepts I had learned, and was happy to see some of the more detailed information in the system. It was a cool revelation.

Since getting my Black, I have gone back and re-read, dissected, and tried to analyze the books even more, looking now for specific things in my techniques and forms. Now, sometimes, I will run through a technique and put names to as much as I can: "Okay, this move is marriage of gravity, this is fitting, this is contouring" and so on. It helps a bit.

Arnisador: at our school, you get both of the methods you describe. You are never really told at the lower ranks that "you will eventually understand", but there is a lot of subtle hints that there is more to the techniques than is being shown. As you progress, and when the instructor thinks you are ready, he or she may show you one or two things during an aside, and then smile as you explore them. You get enlightenment in small doses, and it works pretty well. Most of the time, we *show*, we don't *tell*.....give 'em a snack, and help them find their way to the banquet table I mentioned before...hehe....

Kenpo is as "complete" or "incomplete" as any other system. You will find as much depth in it as you are willing to swim through.

 

[GouRonin]

Perhaps we should say that American Kenpo is one of the most well set up systems for study. Not that it is a complete system. But that it is one of the most well put together systems to study.

As Huk says, "Anyone can fire a gun but the person who knows how and why the gun fires will be better off, just as the person who can fix the gun to make it fire when it is broken will be even better off."

I paraphrased.

 

[Turner]

This raises the question: Is it better to be told those, or find them out?

I don't really think it matters.

Back to using the car analogy: If you go sit in a class for several years learning how to repair and rebuild the car you are going to have a lot of knowledge at your finger tips. No doubt you will know a great deal about how a car works and runs, but all of this is just theory to you until you start tinkering with the car and putting the information to use... and you will get down and dirty.

So which is better? To spend years and years just tinkering with the car (some martial arts will never tinker because the instructor looks down on it. Like I said earlier about my experience with hapkido) and learning how it works that way or to get the information in a class and then get down and dirty and put it to use. Both work. The second method allows for knowledge to be taken in quicker and more efficiently, but both come back to the same thing... you have to take the car apart in order to rebuild and repair it. You have to get intimate with your craft... tear things apart and be willing to let the grease to coat you, bang and scrape your knuckles and get utterly fithy. If the student doesn't want to get down and dirty, he will just be satisfied with having the theory... its all up to the student.
The instructor of the course can teach you all there is about lots of different types of cars, but he can't tell you the little details about your car. You know how hard you can drive it before it will break, you know your car so well that you can identify it as your own just by the sound that it makes in it operation because you have developed a level of intimacy with that vehicle. The instructor can't do that for you... only you can. There is no such thing as a bad teacher, just a bad student. It will be the student that determines how intimate he wants to get with his vehicle.

 

[Nightingale]

as someone almost finished with a master's degree in education, I must object to your last message! There is ABSOLUTELY a such thing as a bad teacher, both in schools and in martial arts.

I experienced a bad martial arts teacher when I was in college and taking TKD through the university. The school had hired a guy who ran a local school to come teach us twice a week in the afternoons...the man was arrogant, chauvinistic, and tried to demand respect from his students by scaring the heck out of them. I'd had nine years of kenpo by then, knew the stuff he was showing us self defense wise wasn't nearly as effective as what I already knew, and one of my previous instructors was a 300 pounds of solid muscle retired marine drill sergeant with a fourth degree black in Kenpo, fast as lightning, and the scariest thing a 13 year old kid ever set eyes upon (and a wonderful teacher to boot!) so a first degree TKD black belt with an overinflated ego didn't scare me, but he managed to reduce some of the other students (male and female) to tears because they couldn't do anything right because they were too afraid to concentrate! And these were COLLEGE STUDENTS! Trust me, bad instructors are definitely out there. A good student can learn amazing amounts from a good instructor, but even the best student can't learn from a poor teacher, because the teacher simply doesn't know how to demonstrate and explain things in a fashion that the student can comprehend.

 

[Turner]

I agree, and I apologize.. There is a such thing as a bad teacher.... I've always viewed bad instruction or a lack of instruction as a gift because it means that I wind up 'inventing' the car instead of just learning how to build, fix and repair the car. So I don't believe that even the worst instructor could hinder my development.... And I can learn from Him/her too... learning what NOT to do is just as important as learning what TO do.

 

[arnisador]

Thanks for the insights from all. I think I like how GouRonin put it.

 

[Roland]

Just when you think nothing else can be said any better, he has to open his big mouth.
A well set up system! Perfect description!


Too bad he had to let the lobster in while the words were pouring fourth. lol
:barf:

:flushed:

 

[GouRonin]

I think it's just the flu, not food poisoning. I appear to have gotton off lucky. Sadly, the problem is that I will eat almost anything at times.

I am telling you guys. You should all listen to me. The only problem you'll have is deciding when I am serious and when I am not.

Personally I think Bad teachers are great. Why? Because when you find a good one you know it. When you have a bad teacher you also learn what not to do. You can learn a lot from a bad teacher. The only fault would be in staying too long with that teacher. It's not a crime to constantly seek out better instruction. Good teachers will support you in doing so.

When I am at Roland's school I try to be a good teacher when I am asked. I think that I am there for a reason. They are learning a serious art for serious purposes but you can have fun doing so. I listen to what the people I work with tell me very seriously. I try to take as much as they say in. I try to give as much as they can handle as well as satisfy the needs of the person who owns the school.

I am not some ego maniac on a mission. I do what is asked of my by the owner and try to give the students what they can use. At the end of the day it is the owner's name on the tax forms and the Student is the one who has paid in time and cash. My agenda is p*ss poor compared to that. I do what I want for me but for others I try to be like Jaybacca. Just a guy in the fog trying to help people find the direction they want to go in. Am I a good teacher? I dunno, but they have not kicked me out yet. I go learn things to try and bring back and share.

I look at it this way. I am sharing time and knowledge with them. I am not teaching. Teaching for me means that I just give them something. If I share something, people are more apt to keep it longer as it takes on more value.

 

[Roland]

Gou just has a great personality.
Heck, he could tell the worst jokes, ones that are so un-PC that even Ozzy would be disgusted by them, but everyone, the Pope and Mother Theresa included, would still laugh, AND be willing to learn something from him.
He is a good friend, somethimes too good for his own good, treats everyone well, even real jerks, and you always know he is there for you, even if it is just to listen.
Other students like him, because they know they can trust him!

I think most of you here know that already!




(PS: glad you are feeling better.)

 

[Goldendragon7]

Complete may not be the best word but what ever it is ....... this system allows for more of everything in every catagory than any other system I know of.

:asian:

 

[GouRonin]

Originally posted by Roland
Gou just has a great personality.
Heck, he could tell the worst jokes, ones that are so un-PC that even Ozzy would be disgusted by them, but everyone, the Pope and Mother Theresa included, would still laugh, AND be willing to learn something from him.
He is a good friend, somethimes too good for his own good, treats everyone well, even real jerks, and you always know he is there for you, even if it is just to listen.
Other students like him, because they know they can trust him!
I think most of you here know that already.
(PS: glad you are feeling better.)

Holy patootie on a stick! I think the jig is up and my sterling rep has been shot to the pooper! Mental Note to self: Stop being so nice. People are starting to catch on!



Thanx for the wishes. I think it was a 24 hour flu. At one point there I could crap through screen door at 40 feet and not touch screen.
:shrug:

 

[WilliamTLear]

I don't know about you, but the idea of seeing Gou hang his ***-Cannon out the garage door and shoot for the screen door on the back of his house is... well... WRONG.

Mental Note: Don't eat what Gou eats!!! It could kill someone!!! Even an innocent spectator.

Take Care,
Billy Lear
United Kenpo Systems
www.geocities.com/williamtlear

 

[Klondike93]

That is one nasty mental image there Gou, whoa.

But (pardon the pun) Billy with the A$$-Cannon, that was funny :rofl: :rofl:


:asian:

 

[Goldendragon7]

Way .......... way more info than I needed!!!!!!!!!

:barf:

 

[Seig]

Let's see him claiming to be so pretty while aiming that cannon!
:roflmao:

 

[Goldendragon7]

good one........ :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: