Ethics of Removing a BB from thier Family Tree

[Doc]

Something very similiar has happened to me. My previous instructor says that he wants nothing to do with me anymore, and has taken my name off of his roster, but yet if you go to his website and download the ".doc" file that he has with the membership roster on it you will find my name on there, but saying that I am no longer in the association. He has "demanded" that any certificates that I got from him be taken down off of any website(s) that I had them on.

I agreed to the terms of removal of either one of our names from the other's website. (He take my name off and I take his off), but what eludes me is that he still goes to every forum that he can frequent and bash me. I have since then joined a different school with a different Master instructor and we get along great.

Since the previous instructor has continued to bash me regardless of what is said to him about anything - do you think that I should put my certificates that I earned back on my website? Since regardless he will do and say what he wants anyway...

Thanks for the advice

A person may be removed from an organization, or remove themselves, however diplomas, belts, etc awarded when you were in good standing belong to you.

I had a discussion with a young man who was removed from a family tree and organization because he didn't agree with some "personal issues" the head instructor had. The instructor wanted everything back, and he asked my advice. I told him to tell his former instructor, to refund the eight years of lessons, belt promotions, and activity fees over that period, and you will return the belt and diplomas. He told me the instructor said, "But you already had the lessons." The young man said, "My point exactly." and walked away. He hasn't heard anything from his former instructor since.

 

[DavidCC]

I suppose the head of a system can do whatver he wants with his black belt "tree", as they see fit. Personally, I don't know what is "right".

but I do know what is "wrong" : when asked specifically about a person who received a black belt, to lie and say they never did, even if you have removed them from the "tree". An honest answer would be "yes he was awarded that rank but is no longer affiiated with our organization".

Maybe there are 2 types of tree: one that lists the people currently in your organization, and one that shows everyone who was ever in it.

 

[Kenpodoc]

interesting perspective, but let's turn it around. What about when a student no longer "claims" you as his instructor? This happened to me with one of my black belts when, for unknown reasons of his own, insists he's first generation. This in spite of every IKKA Diploma he has up until the passing of Ed Parker Sr. has my signature on the "instructor" line.

Do you now remove him from your tree, because of his claims?

It's dissapointing when something like this happens. Students can start to feel like family. If he's the man I'm thinking of he's still very talented and it appears that his first instructor gave him an excellent base for his continued studies. Perhaps i'm wrong but I'd recommend that you feel disappointed and proud.

As to the initial question I don't believe one should edit their family tree. an asterix explaining the split might be appropriate.

Jeff

 

[Michael Billings]

I suppose the head of a system can do whatver he wants with his black belt "tree", as they see fit. Personally, I don't know what is "right".

but I do know what is "wrong" : when asked specifically about a person who received a black belt, to lie and say they never did, even if you have removed them from the "tree". An honest answer would be "yes he was awarded that rank but is no longer affiiated with our organization".

Maybe there are 2 types of tree: one that lists the people currently in your organization, and one that shows everyone who was ever in it.

I agree with this and like the honesty.

-Michael

 

[47MartialMan]

But what f the student became disrespectful, rogue, dishonored the teacher?

 

[MisterMike]

Maybe we should make the distinction between the Family Tree and Records of Rank. People may receive rank and then leave - whether they are removed or quit themselves. It would then be on record that the person received such and such rank - just not publicly displayed. But the Tree, should display who is still active and training. It should represent life, otherwise you just have a lot of dead wood.

 

[kenpo3631]

What aboout the student that openly admits "I owe my skill and knowledge" to his instructor, then leaves and when asked of his lineage NEVER even mentions his original instructor again?

 

[kenpo3631]

Maybe we should make the distinction between the Family Tree and Records of Rank. People may receive rank and then leave - whether they are removed or quit themselves. It would then be on record that the person received such and such rank - just not publicly displayed. But the Tree, should display who is still active and training. It should represent life, otherwise you just have a lot of dead wood.

Good point!

 

[47MartialMan]

Represent life, when bad branches fall off?

When these branches fall off, is the tree still standing-still living?

 

[Rick Wade]

Represent life, when bad branches fall off?

When these branches fall off, is the tree still standing-still living?

I totally agree. by shedding the dead branches the Tree is still standing without the dead weight the tree will grow stronger and straighter.

V/R

Rick

 

[Zoran]

But what f the student became disrespectful, rogue, dishonored the teacher?

That student has still earned what they earned to that point. After that connection is severed, they can no longer earn anything from the teacher, but it does not invalidate what they have already earned.

A person may be removed from an organization, or remove themselves, however diplomas, belts, etc awarded when you were in good standing belong to you.

I had a discussion with a young man who was removed from a family tree and organization because he didn't agree with some "personal issues" the head instructor had. The instructor wanted everything back, and he asked my advice. I told him to tell his former instructor, to refund the eight years of lessons, belt promotions, and activity fees over that period, and you will return the belt and diplomas. He told me the instructor said, "But you already had the lessons." The young man said, "My point exactly." and walked away. He hasn't heard anything from his former instructor since.

Good point and EXCELLENT advice.

Also another point. You don't earn rank from an organization. It is your instructor that awards you rank that you have earned through training. Oraganization can award rank according to their bylaws, without an instructor's signature and training. Those ranks are usually honorary or what I've some call "like rank". Those are a completely different animal.

 

[47MartialMan]

Yeah, I was just turning the table.

Someone told me this is what happened to Dillman and his teacher

 

[Michael Billings]

I have seen both, the instructor not being claimed by the student, and the student not being "recognized" any more by his teacher. To some extent that is why Associations and certificates exist. You could choose to do the honorable thing and acknowledge the teacher or student as have been in your line of descent, or instructor. As Kenpoist, and Black Belts, to some extent we do not talk about other's business. Then again there may be a gossip monger in our midst.

A certificate is a good indicator "you were there", although they can be forged, it is not necessarily commonplace to do so, especially if you live near a bona fide association school. I left my instructor, but he acknowledges me as one of his Black Belts, and I have not taken him out of my line of descent (as I know others in his lineage have-not from his being a poor teacher). Anyone who spent a significant amount of time instructing me gets credit, or in some cases blame. I hope it is the same for my students, wherever they go.

How about the high ranking black belt who has a criminal conviction - and it is a nasty one? You want him out of your line, but just wanting that does not make it so. I would stress that he/she was your instructor at one point in time (for good or ill), but you have been with someone else for the past XXX years who is also a major contributor to your lineage.

Just my way of looking at it.
-Michael

 

[Simon Curran]

With regards to the specific removal of a person from a family tree, I can understand the points people have made in either direction, but I'm not really looking for ranks etc. to me it is ability that is my driving factor.

From personal experience; An executive decision was made in the club where I train to move from one organisation to another a couple of years ago for reasons I will not discuss on open forum.
Upon announcing our intent to move to the head of our previous organisation, our instructor was subjected to a verbal torrent, and a demand was made that we all return our belts/certificates of rank, to which my instructor replid we had earned and paid for the right to bear them.
The former organisation head then maintained that they belonged to him, but when offered an open invite to come and take them, oddly enough his demand receded somewhat...

 

[47MartialMan]

I, as far as to "physically retrieve" documets or rank, this is absurd. such things, like someone had mentioned, were "awards" granted upon abilities or goals accomplished.

However, erasing them from the "tree", may be acceptable if great dishonor had occured.

 

[Seabrook]

There is someone I promoted to black belt a few years back, whom, after just a few months after the test, quit studying martial arts. This student had trained with me for 8 years prior to his black belt test. I was shocked that he disappeared in the smoke, but take him off my family tree....no. I tested and promoted him and he earned it at the time.


Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com

 

[47MartialMan]

There is someone I promoted to black belt a few years back, whom, after just a few months after the test, quit studying martial arts. This student had trained with me for 8 years prior to his black belt test. I was shocked that he disappeared in the smoke, but take him off my family tree....no. I tested and promoted him and he earned it at the time.

Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com

But what if he openly disrespected you?

What if he did something criminal?

Would you keep him on the tree/lineage?

Of course, it is absurd to "take back" a rank.

 

[evenflow1121]

The family tree just means the guy you taught achieved a certain level under you, organization is a different matter. There are various reasons why people remove others from organizations however. If you taught someone and all of a sudden the guy is claiming a rank he does not have or is not teaching the system the correct way, has either watered it down, or has turned his or her school into a McDojo, I dont see those as invalid reasons. If I ever reach 4th degree and open up a school (this being many years down the line ofcourse) I sure as hell would not want one of my students opening up a studio and making it a bb factory, I would not want to be associated with a person like that. I do however, think some people are ousted because the system heads or founders have this "my way or the highway" attitude that falls short of authoritarianism, and then thats wrong.

 

[tshadowchaser]

or...
* Next to the name of the person with a disclaimer
For example
Joe Black Belt *
* No longer associated with instructor or school or association
If you as a student are going to rewrite your history or cut ties with your instructor, your instructor has every right to explain why at the very least use an * by your name on his lineage line.

If a student breaks from his parent organization but still has the respect to say he was trained by "mr. X" in " school XYZ' of the "qwe" association, then he is doing just that paying respect to his old teacher and organization. ( That’s better than making up some foolish lineage)

And if the teacher has recognized student "a" with rank I think he should still say " yes I trained him but he is no longer in this organization".

 

[Bill Lear]

I'd say no matter what the situation is... former black belts should remain on family trees. That being said, a good way to clarify whether or not this person is in good standing or bad standing within your association or school is to indicate their status with a symbol (letter or number) next to their name. This way instructors can verify whether or not someone is who they say they are, and they can find out a little bit more about that someone with a simple phone call if they are so inclined.

Honesty is honorable, covering up the past isn't.

:asian: