Ethics of Removing a BB from thier Family Tree

[47MartialMan]

Honorable is not covering up the past?

Perhaps someone whom became dis-honorable to such a org should be removed from such honotrary tree/lineage.

 

[dsp921]

If at one point someone earns a spot on a family tree they belong there, always. If they eventually do something dishonorable, that doesn't change the fact they were once a student and earned rank. Put a * or some other designation indictating they are no longer associated with the teacher or organization. But present acts or statements can't undo the past.
That said, family trees are by no means the complete story. People get left off by mistake all the time. If an instructor has a couple hundred students it's tough to remember every single person when it comes time to write it all down. Family trees are a decent reference point but by no means a complete history of a system. I for one don't put a lot of weight to family trees.

 

[Zoran]

Honorable is not covering up the past?

Perhaps someone whom became dis-honorable to such a org should be removed from such honotrary tree/lineage.

Obviously you have something specific in mind. Why don't you tell us your story instead of repeating the same thing over and over again.

 

[47MartialMan]

If at one point someone earns a spot on a family tree they belong there, always. If they eventually do something dishonorable, that doesn't change the fact they were once a student and earned rank. Put a * or some other designation indictating they are no longer associated with the teacher or organization. But present acts or statements can't undo the past.
That said, family trees are by no means the complete story. People get left off by mistake all the time. If an instructor has a couple hundred students it's tough to remember every single person when it comes time to write it all down. Family trees are a decent reference point but by no means a complete history of a system. I for one don't put a lot of weight to family trees.

True, such one was a student and earned rank. However, part of being a student and earning rank is mentality, charecter, and discipline. If such a student does something dis-honorable, the fact that they were a student or have a rank seem astonishing if said student performs or does something so dishonorable.

I guess, if one is to look a a martial art tree as a family tree, then the member of any such tree cannot be removed.

However, a martial art tree is not rooted with family genetics (although some are) but its main source of nourishment is its values. When these values are disturbed by one member, like a doseased branch, should it not be removed to save the entire tree?

 

[KenpoDave]

There is an ongoing, martial arts-wide debate about how old a person should be before being awarded a black belt. The argument for older rather than younger always brings up the point that the achievement of black belt carries with it more than physical skill. Things like maturity, honor, responsibility, character, loyalty, etc.

If an organization recognizes virtues beyond physical skill as part of "what a blackbelt is" then why should that rank not be revoked if a person ceases to demonstrate those virtues?

As far as asterisking their name on the tree, why not simply remove the dirty laundry rather than continue to air it publicly? At the very least, those interested would have to go to the concerned parties to find out the gory details and it would cut down on E-Gossip and save bandwidth. :asian:

 

[47MartialMan]

There is an ongoing, martial arts-wide debate about how old a person should be before being awarded a black belt. The argument for older rather than younger always brings up the point that the achievement of black belt carries with it more than physical skill. Things like maturity, honor, responsibility, character, loyalty, etc.

If an organization recognizes virtues beyond physical skill as part of "what a blackbelt is" then why should that rank not be revoked if a person ceases to demonstrate those virtues?

As far as asterisking their name on the tree, why not simply remove the dirty laundry rather than continue to air it publicly? At the very least, those interested would have to go to the concerned parties to find out the gory details and it would cut down on E-Gossip and save bandwidth. :asian:

Precisely, we hear in the news how a martial art teacher molested or raped someone. Imagine if that someone was part of your tree? Would you really keep his name there?

 

[Seabrook]

But what if he openly disrespected you?

What if he did something criminal?

Would you keep him on the tree/lineage?

Of course, it is absurd to "take back" a rank.

Good questions. I would keep him on the family tree. We ALL make mistakes in life; some people subsequently turn their life around for the good, others not.

Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com

 

[47MartialMan]

Good questions. I would keep him on the family tree. We ALL make mistakes in life; some people subsequently turn their life around for the good, others not.

Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com

And those who do not, those who turn very bad, would you keep them?

Imagine the top worse things that someone could do that will have you remove them. I mean WORSE.

 

[Seabrook]

And those who do not, those who turn very bad, would you keep them?

Imagine the top worse things that someone could do that will have you remove them. I mean WORSE.

I don't think I would remove anyone from my family tree, but I never say "never" in life.

Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com

 

[47MartialMan]

I don't think I would remove anyone from my family tree, but I never say "never" in life.

Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com

I mean what if the guy on your tree molested kids or teens?

Or worse molsted and killed a teen?


Would you still want the name of said person on your tree?

 

[Sigung86]

I mean what if the guy on your tree molested kids or teens?

Or worse molsted and killed a teen?


Would you still want the name of said person on your tree?

What if... What if... What if.... And the worst case scenarios. Family trees, as they are currently used or defined are simply political tools, in my usually skewed estimation. Beside that... If he was on your tree, he still is... You can change history, but you can not change fact.

Reason I went off the Tracy family tree? Per a telecon with Al, 'You pissed a lot of guys off ... Go do your own thing".

After serious and considerable thinking, aaand no further guidance from above, the only things that I could think of was that I had managed to piss off Ted Sumner by posting on Ricardo Castillo's old forum in the negative, over his posting of the trash based Parker history (true or untrue), and I had posted over here on MT, that there were some Tracy stylists that thought That Tom Connor was a better martial artist than Al Tracy (true personal thoughts by people who were there, and not just an editorial thought on my part). Ted Sumner had posted on his forum, rather imperiously, that he had talked to Al Tracy, and Al Tracy had never heard of me ... That would be despite the special silk paper dipoma with gold script and an apparently, now questionable, serial number.

Rather than anyone calling and clearing up, I managed to incur enough wrath and as I do not contribute in a monetary fashion to the Tracy Empire (I teach for free to some poor folks, not commercially, and only contribute in the purchase of tapes, or dipomas for myself), I was pretty easy to drop off.

I truly imagine there was more to it than that, as I can't imagine that I could piss off a whole bunch of people just being little old me, but no other directive, instruction, or scold was forthcoming.

It was, in my opinion, wrong to be dropped off the family tree, particularly one that is the only tree that is in existence for the Tracy branch.... But... It is Al Tracy's website, ego and family tree. It also seems that in his particular organization it is the iron fist of Tracy that runs whether you are in or out, or in good graces or not, or in the tree, or not. There is no procedure for appeal, no procedure that is in place to either delete someone or to discipline them for sins, real or imagined.

Basically, I have no real dog in this hunt, as I have walked away from Kenpo. The rank means nothing when it can be taken in the twinkling of any eye by someone who has an impulse. It is only skill and knowledge that matter. So, all the brouhaha over family tree really is much ado about nothing. Therefore, I began and continue to question the validity of any family tree. Except for those already cast in stone, such as Ed Parker's. Funny that people will even argue about that one, but they manage to do so.

Well, on to other and better things. I am going to assume that the GAB and/or a few of the others will get this back to Ted and I may be put in a position to respond... ON the other hand, having existed as a RoKuDan in Tracy International, but no longer, I may be totally ignored by people who have already had their way with me.

So, you see, it isn't always about raping and killing teenagers. Sometimes it is as little a thing as thinking for yourself, and speaking your own mind. That, appears to be the ultimate sin. At least as near as I can figger. :whip:

 

[Sam]

The rank means nothing when it can be taken in the twinkling of any eye by someone who has an impulse.

It is only skill and knowledge that matter.

Maybe I am not understanding what you are saying - but these two comments seem to contradict each other.

At first I had planned to disagree with your first statement, but my reasons were basically your second statement.

What are you trying to say?

 

[47MartialMan]

What if... What if... What if.... And the worst case scenarios. Family trees, as they are currently used or defined are simply political tools, in my usually skewed estimation. Beside that... If he was on your tree, he still is... You can change history, but you can not change fact.

Ah. I see your position/opinion.

Yes, "trees" (likewise title/rank) can be political tools.

Yes, you can change a entry on the tree, but NOT history and not fact.

So your view on rank and "tree" is also onto thinking that they can be over-rated?

 

[JAMJTX]

It is ethical, fair and done all the time. In Japanese, the term for revoking rank is hamon.

Say Master Smith teaches Student Jones. Jones is awarded a high rank and a teaching certificate. Jones then sets up a McDojo using the highly respected credentials that he got from Master Smith, making Master Smith look like a fool.
So Master Smith revokes the rank and certification that he gave. In this case it is a perfectly legit way for Master Smith to protect his own reputation and the integrity of his teaching.

Some times it os done soley for political reasons and some times perhaps commercial reasons.

 

[47MartialMan]

It is ethical, fair and done all the time. In Japanese, the term for revoking rank is hamon.

Say Master Smith teaches Student Jones. Jones is awarded a high rank and a teaching certificate. Jones then sets up a McDojo using the highly respected credentials that he got from Master Smith, making Master Smith look like a fool.
So Master Smith revokes the rank and certification that he gave. In this case it is a perfectly legit way for Master Smith to protect his own reputation and the integrity of his teaching.

Some times it os done soley for political reasons and some times perhaps commercial reasons.

Hmmnn, goes against some of the opinions of other posts here. Look over them and see.

 

[Doc]

It is ethical, fair and done all the time. In Japanese, the term for revoking rank is hamon.

It may be ethical, fair, and done all the time in Japan, or in those in a Japanese Lineage that subscribe to that nonsense. In American Kenpo as Mr. Parker stated, "What's done is done. You can't change it." Mr. Parker fired, kicked out, ostracized, and wrote off a lot of very well known black belts on his family tree for many valid reasons. He lothed his own teachers "collaborative" partner Mitose, yet he is on the tree. He often said, "History should never be re-written, only explained." What "... is ethical, fair, and done all the time." in one culture has no bearing on another. In the Japanese Culture students could conceivably commit acceptable "hari kari" for bringing dishonor on their teacher, or do you pick and choose which part of the culture you find ok?

 

[47MartialMan]

1.) It may be ethical, fair, and done all the time in Japan, or in those in a Japanese Lineage that subscribe to that nonsense. In American Kenpo as Mr. Parker stated, "What's done is done. You can't change it." Mr. Parker fired, kicked out, ostracized, and wrote off a lot of very well known black belts on his family tree for many valid reasons. He lothed his own teachers "collaborative" partner Mitose, yet he is on the tree. He often said, "History should never be re-written, only explained." What "... is ethical, fair, and done all the time." in one culture has no bearing on another.

2.) In the Japanese Culture students could conceivably commit acceptable "hari kari" for bringing dishonor on their teacher, or do you pick and choose which part of the culture you find ok?

1.) Very interesting. So a tree cannot shed its rotten branches?

2.) Yes, many pick out thing from other cultures in accordance to their likes/fancy.

 

[RRouuselot]

Obviously you have something specific in mind. Why don't you tell us your story instead of repeating the same thing over and over again.

Because this is how he gets his jollies…..he will throw out some extremely vague comments, questions, or imply something very vague just to start some controversy.

 

[Zoran]

I agree 110% with Doc here.

1.) Very interesting. So a tree cannot shed its rotten branches?

Don't over use or abuse analogies. :whip: We are talking about what has been earned, not growing a maple.

So in your estimation, a black belt can be removed from an instructor's list because they dishonored their instructor?

Don't you think "dishonor" can be a bit subjective?

Where do you draw the line?

Explain how removing someone for some slight can be ethical or honorable for that matter?

 

[47MartialMan]

Because this is how he gets his jollies…..he will throw out some extremely vague comments, questions, or imply something very vague just to start some controversy.

Sure(sarcasim)........someone else get theirs another way.

Vague? Just posting ponderance, DA, or searching for another opinion.

Speaking of starting controversy...per quote itself is a returned lash....