Combat Hapkido vs Sin Moo Hapkido
- Thread starter yorkshirelad
- Start date
Demonizing (or at least criticizing) "traditional" arts is fairly commonplace these days, particularly when one is trying to set their system apart as being "realistic" or "King in the ring" or "for the street" or any of the other various marketing ploys used to make a system stand out.
When one is trying to make a living, the incentive to do so is even greater. No, I don't defend it, but I do recognize it. We can all thank Bruce Lee for starting that particular tradition. I try to separate what is said by the system founder about other arts from the content of their system.
Now, to be fair, I have read only a couple of interviews with GMP, and I did not observe him demonizing traditional hapkido. Not saying that he hasn't; I just haven't read enough of his interviews to have made that observation.
Speaking of traditional hapkido and rank (the subject of the OP), what tradition did he come up through and attain rank in? And how much of that is retained in his CHKD?
Daniel
Agreed. I have withheld judgment until I hear whether or not he has some philosophy behind what he does.
The direct and linear approach, while not bad (works well in Shotokan), is not characteristic of hapkido. His locks and such are all things that look familiar, though they are not attained in a way characteristic of hapkido.
His footwork is definitely not characteristic of hapkido, but since I have not heard whether or not he has a reason for the difference, I have not judged it to be "good" or "bad", but simply not characteristic of hapkido.
Some of his leaning out and entering into grapples from a forward position I am not inclined towards. Once he has control, I will say that he redirects quite well, but he definitely leans more than I have been taught to.
This leads me to the question of how his system and his execution of it would be viewed were it unlabeled and not being compared to established hapkido kwans. Would it stand up on its own? If you learned his system and to perform it the way that he does, would you be able to apply it in an SD situation? Even if you are an average Joe with no military or law enforcement background and in the typical condition of the average person?
Another question is whether or not his system, though different from 'traditional' hapkido systems still retains enough to be truly called hapkido. Or is it like the guy who puts 'karate' on his sign because if he calls it something else, nobody will come through the door.
One last question to everyone: how come nobody participates in this forum unless CHKD is brought up? And then the discussions generally get contentious.
This is the main reason that I remain as neutral as possible in these discussions. There are already plenty of ardent supporters and determined detractors. I have nothing to lose or gain in the outcome of GMP debates. I do have my own opinion of what I have seen in the demos, some of which I have voiced above. The rest I keep to myself, as it is mostly second hand.
Daniel
dancingalone
Grandmaster
I have a review of the first 2 Combat Hapkido videos I have been working on in desultory fashion. It addresses some of the points you have brought up.
I'm inclined to think that Pelligrini has been influenced by some of things done in wrestling or sambo or even BJJ, which explains some of his footwork and especially some of his crouch entries.
I think it stands even labeled as hapkido. It is a recognized hapkido style by the Kidohae, correct? That seems pretty definitive to me even if there are some key differences in execution principles displayed by Pelligrini himself. I liken it to isshinryu karate. No one would question that isshinryu is an Okinawan karate style, although it looks quite different from many other karate styles.
I am leaking a bit from my review, but in my opinion, yes. Whether a purist would want to call it "hapkido" or not may be up to debate, but I have played with the beginning material in Combat Hapkido with a couple of partners and I was able to make it work. My partners had a bit more trouble but I also chalk that up to their lack of experience in the grabbing arts. I have 12+ years in Aikido, so obviously that helps.
If the Kidohae is willing to call it hapkido, who are we to object? It may be a monetary arrangement, but I am willing to accept the Kidohae as an authority on the surface.
That's something that crossed my mind too as I viewed this thread. Even the tai chi forum here gets more regular play than the hapkido forum. I guess the members here don't have anything to say?
I don't mind saying I consider CH in a generally positive light. I am not a hapkidoist so all the stylistic purity stuff is of no import to me. I'm willing to look at CH on purely its own merits without having to see a reflection of what I think hapkido is, so that undoubtedly helps. I believe CH can be useful as a vehicle to learn some effective self-defense skills.
dancingalone
Grandmaster
??? I haven't read many CH articles admittedly, but Pelligrini generally comes off well in the ones I have read in Black Belt magazine and such. Do you have any links to where he has said something uncomplimentary about traditional hapkido? Obviously, he'll think his system is an improvement, but I can't see him saying something controversial like "Traditional hapkido is awful".
The only thing that I have seen him say that I can remember off the top of my head is that his system is hapkido without traditional trappings or classical stances. Personally, I think that it is such an ambiguous statement that I find it hard to take offense. It is also silly. The man poses for pictures in a dobok and a black belt and his system uses belts and a kyu/dan based grading system, all of which are traditional trappings.
As for classical stances, this comment seems designed to appeal to the uninformed person who still thinks that traditional stylists spend their time fighting in rigid stances, or aimed at the person who has been in classes where classical stances are taught in a static fashion and unconnected to actual fighting.
Obviously, he is using different stances and footwork, so without a reference point as to why he does so, and without having seen him move in person, I withhold making a public judgment of his system or ability. Thank you for providing a possible reference point, but I would like to hear one from someone who does CHKD, or a quote from GMP regarding the specifics of what he actually does, rather than his comments about what he has "stripped away."
Daniel
As for classical stances, this comment seems designed to appeal to the uninformed person who still thinks that traditional stylists spend their time fighting in rigid stances, or aimed at the person who has been in classes where classical stances are taught in a static fashion and unconnected to actual fighting.
Obviously, he is using different stances and footwork, so without a reference point as to why he does so, and without having seen him move in person, I withhold making a public judgment of his system or ability. Thank you for providing a possible reference point, but I would like to hear one from someone who does CHKD, or a quote from GMP regarding the specifics of what he actually does, rather than his comments about what he has "stripped away."
Daniel
dancingalone
Grandmaster
That's surely part of it. In looking at his ads in Black Belt magazine, I really think he's marketing to some extent the target audience I think Combat Hapkido can be ideal for: sport karate/TKD schools who could benefit from a re-injection of self-defense content. Part of this can mean occasionally talking the Bruce Lee non-traditionalist talk or giving off a gruff MMA-type 'whatever works' attitude.
Krav Maga people do and say some of the same things, but no one from the Korean martial arts is offended by them because they're not hapkido.
Drac seems to be the only member here who trains CH. There was another gentleman named Terry L? for a couple of threads last year, but he seems to have dropped off. Are there any more active hapkido forums? It would be interesting if there was some official CH forum out there where one could ask this very question.
Having spent a great deal of time in his presence I have NEVER heard him say anything negative about any other discipline or Grandmaster, Master,Sensei,Sifu, Founder or Soke..
Regarding Krav Maga, someone had told me that it was based on hapkido, but I have no source for that, so I won't make a case. Just a curiosity.
As for the marketing, I completely agree with you.
Regarding other posters or a CHKD forum, Terry L dropped off because every thread that he started ended up being trolled and getting locked, and comments directed to him seemed to get personal in nature. I think he just got frustrated. Drac's input would be welcome. As for a CHKD forum, yes, I could go on one and ask, but I am more interested in the quality of the conversations on this forum.
Daniel
As for the marketing, I completely agree with you.
Regarding other posters or a CHKD forum, Terry L dropped off because every thread that he started ended up being trolled and getting locked, and comments directed to him seemed to get personal in nature. I think he just got frustrated. Drac's input would be welcome. As for a CHKD forum, yes, I could go on one and ask, but I am more interested in the quality of the conversations on this forum.
Daniel
I dont post too often when the topic of CH or GMP is the center of attention..Like TerryL I get frustrated too, with the ignorant statements.
Not agreeing or disagreeing, but one need not have videos for sale to be bothered by, or to be jealous of, someone who does.
Plenty of people have made comments about how anyone who makes a living teaching martial arts or charges anything above what is needed to maintain a club as a non profit is somehow a fraud. Obviously, these people do not have commercial schools, and are often students who have some weird notions about the "purity of the martial arts" or some other nonsense. This does not prevent them from passing judgment on those who derive income and earn a living from teaching.
Likewise, the olympics, for years, barred professional athletes for similar reasons. In auto racing, professional drivers were looked down upon until the fifties or sixties.
Not that this is the case, but sour grapes do not require one to offer the same thing. Just to be jealous of another's success.
Daniel
I'm sure that Bruce Lee endured some less than flattering reviews in certain circles as well.
And bring up Elvis Presley having a high dan rank and the rancor is unleashed. Never mind that everything that I have read about his tests and what he did to promote the organizations that he was associated with indicates that he was probably more deserving of his rank than not a few self appointed organizational heads who advertise in Blackbeltmag (not a reference to GMP
)
Also, I think that GMP suffers from some of the same criticism that Chuck Sullivan (no relation of which I am aware) and Vic Leroux (SP?) receive due to video grading. So in the case of criticism of GMP, I think that there is more than one dynamic at work.
Daniel
And bring up Elvis Presley having a high dan rank and the rancor is unleashed. Never mind that everything that I have read about his tests and what he did to promote the organizations that he was associated with indicates that he was probably more deserving of his rank than not a few self appointed organizational heads who advertise in Blackbeltmag (not a reference to GMP
)Also, I think that GMP suffers from some of the same criticism that Chuck Sullivan (no relation of which I am aware) and Vic Leroux (SP?) receive due to video grading. So in the case of criticism of GMP, I think that there is more than one dynamic at work.
Daniel
Kumbajah
Purple Belt
Absolutely - I was just responding to the notion that they were jealous because he is a commercial success with DVDs where they are not.
So to me the progression is multi-tiered - It's not that he has a high rank that he may have taken an abridged route to but rather he uses it to justify and give legitimacy his "new" system.
It's not he is a commercial success but rather how he achieved it - they are more critical of something like distance learning programs.
It's not he created a "new" art but he did it on the back of Hapkido an art that he doesn't do well. (Find any JuJuitsu art that has and promotes footwork like his - most would see it as beginning student level at best.)
The program started as modular program for TKD schools - the HKD community is a bit touchy about TKD pilfering from HKD (usually poorly - case in point) . This is probably an extension of that as well.
If people want to buy what he has to sell, THKD people aren't going to stop them. People want what they want. Fast food is still ubiquitous, you can hear how bad it is for you but people still buy it.
C'est la vie - hope no one gets hurt from it.
Distance learning is definitely a polarizing topic and any organization that does distance learning with rank progression can expect to take flack for it. That is generally not the major criticism that I see of GMP, though I do agree that that adds to it.
The one that you have given repeatedly is this:
The question that I have is whether his footwork is 'poor' or if it is simply 'not hapkido' but is functional and/or appropriate for what he is teaching, putting the name aside. What are your thoughts regarding DA's comment:
Is the above something that explains his footwork and entries?
Again, I agree; like distance learning, modular programs based on one art set up as an add on to another generally will bring flack to the organization. Occupational hazard I suppose. Given how much pilfering has gone on in most KMA (Taekwondo was pretty much a copy Shotokan and with a made up history to boot, and Hapkido is a hybrid art, which by its very nature pilfers from other arts). Personally, I do not see the pilfering as bad, so long as people are honest about where they are culling their techniques from.
So far, based on the system alone (not the issues that can arise from lousy teachers of the system or distance learning, which is a topic all its own), I have yet to see any indication that this would be any more of an issue with CHKD than it is in HKD. Every system has lousy teachers.
But assuming that one was taught CHKD by an instructor who learned directly from GMP, or from another instructor who did (as opposed to a video ranked instructor), is people getting hurt really a factor any more than it is in any grappling/throwing MA?
I have not seen enough CHKD to even draw a conclusion on this, but I have seen enough HKD to say that with a lousy teacher, yes the potential for injury exists. In fact the potential exists even with a fantastic teacher and a top notch facility with all safety gear in place. Is implying that learning the system from a qualified instructor really fair?
Or are you implying this because of the distance learning/modular program aspect (which may or may not apply depending upon the school)?
Daniel
dancingalone
Grandmaster
I think that it's quite evident there are more foreign influences within Combat Hapkido than just purely the jujutsu-derived arts. And therein lies the problem with the perspective of folks like you. You expect it to be more like the martial art you practice.
I argue there quite a bit of hard style grappling within CH as demonstrated by Mr. Pelligrini. He does things at time that would not be out of place in judo/sambo or even in karate.
Here's the problem with that analogy. You believe CH is bad martial arts merely because it is not the hapkido you practice. That's not necessarily the case. There's more than way to address the same problem. Karate people does it one way, judoka do it another way, and I bet even related arts like aikido and hapkido vary from each other too in specific scenarios. Which one of them do it the right way? All of them. None of them. It's up to the individual in that split second moment.
Kumbajah
Purple Belt
Hopefully this will address both your posts -
It's not that it's not Hapkido - I've studied Judo, Hapkido and Aikido. I have friends that study other arts as well who have exposed me to their chosen art. I can appreciate the mastery and logic behind their different approaches.
Across the arts there are a few consistent things,. whether it's a Korean, Chinese, Japanese, Filipino, Western art, etc The entries may be different, slightly different angles etc but what they do consistently is control the person by controlling the space NOT by running around the other person at arms distance.
Regardless of the art, what GM P exhibits is poor. The 3 main influences are Hapkido, BJJ and Escrima (Kali, Arnis) - I haven't seen him exhibit master level at the other arts.
I have limited exposure to the other arts, so I speak to what I do know, Hapkido and also the name that he chose for his art. He would it seems to think of THKD as major influence.
I also haven't seen masters in the other two arts exhibiting the footwork he demonstrates.
So if GM P is the fount from which this art flows and the quality of the "base" art is lousy (or at the least seems to not understand the concepts that it's based on ) - how can you expect a quality "product" down the line or from distance learning.
'
I hope no one get hurt trying to emulate his movement in a "self defense" situation.
It's not that it's not Hapkido - I've studied Judo, Hapkido and Aikido. I have friends that study other arts as well who have exposed me to their chosen art. I can appreciate the mastery and logic behind their different approaches.
Across the arts there are a few consistent things,. whether it's a Korean, Chinese, Japanese, Filipino, Western art, etc The entries may be different, slightly different angles etc but what they do consistently is control the person by controlling the space NOT by running around the other person at arms distance.
Regardless of the art, what GM P exhibits is poor. The 3 main influences are Hapkido, BJJ and Escrima (Kali, Arnis) - I haven't seen him exhibit master level at the other arts.
I have limited exposure to the other arts, so I speak to what I do know, Hapkido and also the name that he chose for his art. He would it seems to think of THKD as major influence.
I also haven't seen masters in the other two arts exhibiting the footwork he demonstrates.
So if GM P is the fount from which this art flows and the quality of the "base" art is lousy (or at the least seems to not understand the concepts that it's based on ) - how can you expect a quality "product" down the line or from distance learning.
'
I hope no one get hurt trying to emulate his movement in a "self defense" situation.
dancingalone
Grandmaster
Daniel, I'd like to see him in person to see if his stepping is as staccato live as it is on the yellow/orange and green/purple CH videos. He does appear a little stiff with unneeded steps in these but he's explaining at the same time as he is breaking down the techniques which can be disorienting to the instructor. And he might be simplifying the footwork by breaking it up for the camera.
Then again, if we're looking for the smoothness and unbroken movement gained by proper interval in an art like aikido and I expect traditional hapkido, we might just be barking up the wrong tree. Some martial arts just simply rely more on force and jerky, unbalancing movements.
Look at clips of sambo and judo or Filipino influenced arts like vee-arnis-jitsu. They are look harder and more LINEAR than what one might expect in a purely Japanese jujutsu art.
National Combat Judo (likely a Filipino arnis/judo blend)
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Sambo self-defense
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Vee Arnis Jitsu
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Combat Hapkido Demo
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Traditionalist
Orange Belt
The problem shouldn't be what rank he is, he is the founder of is own system - he's beyond rank. He could claim 1000th dan, if he chose.
Also, the rank he has received was given by traditional Hapkido organizations - so if the rank is not deserved the blame is on them as well.
The only way this is a problem that I see, is that the rank is seen as proof of ability and as a representation of authority. "Of course you should learn form him! He's a 9th dan!"
He may do COMBAT hapkido really well but traditional Hapkido, not so much. To the uninitiated CHKD and THKD, may be thought of, as the same. It is misleading. Although, It's only confusing to people that don't know good traditional hapkido.
He could have saved himself a lot of grief from Trad HKD buy calling his art something else. I don't think anyone would care about him if he had done that. As soon as he steps on the mat, his ability (or lack thereof) is evident .
I wouldn't sweat it - there are many people practicing bad budo - can't save them all.
I agree. Where I'm from all Hapkido is combat. I have never understood the difference that this man was trying to make. Combat Hapkido? Do you not take all Hapkido to be ready in combat. So confusing
I don't know if that last one is GMP or not, but it looks a lot more fluid than other videos that I have seen and the footwork has fewer of the little adjustment steps.
The shoving video and the Judo video were interesting but did not remind me of what little I have seen of GMP, though the Sambo one did a bit.
Based on that CHKD video, what are the thoughts of those in this discussion?
Daniel
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