Collecting Training by the Famous

[Kung Fu Wang]

Again, you’re not learning anything if you’re not retaining it. That’s how learning works.

Seminars are almost completely just scams

In your opinion, what's the difference between workshop training and school training?

You use hip throw to throw your opponent 20 times in workshop is no different than to use hip throw to throw your opponent 20 times in school class.

 

[Flying Crane]

In your opinion, what's the difference between workshop training and school training?

You use hip throw to throw your opponent 20 times in workshop is no different than to use hip throw to throw your opponent 20 times in school class.

If the seminar is teaching or working on something that you are already doing in your regular training, perhaps there is little point in attending the seminar. It isn’t teaching you anything new and merely provides a few new training partners for a limited period of time. That itself can be beneficial, but is of limited benefit due to the brief time spent together.

If such a seminar gave you a significantly better way to do what you had already been training, and you were able to incorporate that method into your training going forward, then it might be a beneficial seminar. But if your regular training was really so inferior then maybe the real issue is you need a better teacher for your ongoing training. I suppose a seminar could point out that uncomfortable truth to you. At any rate, any changes to the standard training moving forward would need to have the regular instructor onboard with the plan.

I am having difficulty seeing any benefit in a seminar that teaches you something that you already know and train skillfully.

I am having difficulty seeing any benefit in a seminar that teaches you something new that will not be trained and maintained moving forward, and that does not contain an ongoing relationship with a skilled teacher who can help you make corrections and develop that skill over time. Because these things need more than a weekend or a week of “teaching” before you have it within your skillset.

Sometimes a seminar gives you benefits that are less obvious and less tangible. The most obvious would be in meeting new people and the possibility of new friendships and new training partners. The second would be in simply seeing how other people go about their training which can broaden one’s horizons. These things may lead to an increase in skill over time, but may not be directly as a result of the physical training from the seminar itself.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

If the seminar is teaching or working on something that you are already doing in your regular training

I assume you go to a workshop to learn something that you have not learned in your school.

If you are a striker, can you learn this takedown within 12 minutes in a workshop environment (assume you already know how to do a break fall)? You can drill at least 20 times with your partner in that 12 minutes.

 

[Flying Crane]

I assume you go to a workshop to learn something that you have not learned in your school.

If you are a striker, can you learn this takedown within 12 minutes in a workshop environment? You can drill at least 20 times with your partner.

Then I misunderstood what you were saying in post 61.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Then I misunderstood what you were saying in post 61.

A striker doesn't know hip throw. he goes to a workshop to learn it. Within 12 minutes, he uses hip throw to throw his opponent 20 times. He may still need to drill 20,000 times outside of that workshop to master that technique.

IMO, that 12 minutes is no difference between workshop and school class.

Even in a university, a professor will only meet you in class for 1 semester (3 months). After 3 months, you may never see him for the rest of your life. I just don't see the long term teacher dependency is needed.

 

[Flying Crane]

A striker doesn't know hip throw. he goes to a workshop to learn it. Within 12 minutes, he uses hip throw to throw his opponent 20 times.

If he never trains it after the seminar, then it does him little good. If he does not have a safe environment in which to train it, like mats and a competent instructor to continue giving him guidance and corrections on his technique, then it could be dangerous for him to try to keep doing it after the seminar is over. Hip throw also requires the ability to safely fall, in order to train it. Perhaps the striker has never learned that either. So he needs that foundational skill as well. 20 repetitions in a seminar does not adequately teach the technique, either how to fall or how to throw.

In your opinion, what's the difference between workshop training and school training?

I am not sure I understand the question. Are you simply asking if I see any difference in training the same material in a seminar vs in the regular school training? I need some clarity.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

If he never trains it after the seminar, then it does him little good.

It that true for all the learning process?

If you have a computer science degree, but you have never written any program in your life. Your computer science degree is useless.

 

[GojuTommy]

In your opinion, what's the difference between workshop training and school training?

You use hip throw to throw your opponent 20 times in workshop is no different than to use hip throw to throw your opponent 20 times in school class.

Seminars are special because people expect to learn things they won’t learn in their normal classes.
Either techniques, drills, concepts, etc.

If they are learning things that they aren’t likely to learn in class that means you’ll do that hip throw 20, and then likely never again.

In class youll do it 20 times, then a few weeks or a month later you’ll do it 20 more times, so on and so forth.

Im not sure why this is so hard for people to understand.
It’s a pretty basic concept of teaching and learning.

For example, had I gone to SC to train with Icey mike for only one or two classes(seminar style) his hover step is something I’d likely struggle to implement in sparring like I did tonight. Instead I worked it for a whole week because mike built every class for the week to work around that, where I did it probably hundreds of time.

 

[GojuTommy]

It that true for all the learning process?

If you have a computer science degree, but you have never written any program in your life. Your computer science degree is useless.

Not sure what’s involved in getting a computer science degree, but i bet if you’ve never written a program you probably don’t have a bachelor’s degree or higher in it.

Regardless if you get the degree, and then never utilize the knowledge afterwards, after 5 years you’ll probably have no clue how to do it any more.

 

[GojuTommy]

If he never trains it after the seminar, then it does him little good. If he does not have a safe environment in which to train it, like mats and a competent instructor to continue giving him guidance and corrections on his technique, then it could be dangerous for him to try to keep doing it after the seminar is over. Hip throw also requires the ability to safely fall, in order to train it. Perhaps the striker has never learned that either. So he needs that foundational skill as well. 20 repetitions in a seminar does not adequately teach the technique, either how to fall or how to throw.

I am not sure I understand the question. Are you simply asking if I see any difference in training the same material in a seminar vs in the regular school training? I need some clarity.

I hope these people aren’t instructors.

Shoot in a weekend seminar I hope techniques are done more than 20 times.

In a 3-4 hour seminar a technique should still be done well over 20 times.
If i were to give a generic number of repetitions, I’d have said 100 times.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Seminars are almost completely just scams

Having attended somewhere between 80-100 martial arts seminars over the last 38 years, I have to disagree with that. I still practice and use techniques and principles that I learned in seminars decades ago.

If the seminar is teaching or working on something that you are already doing in your regular training, perhaps there is little point in attending the seminar. It isn’t teaching you anything new and merely provides a few new training partners for a limited period of time. That itself can be beneficial, but is of limited benefit due to the brief time spent together.

If such a seminar gave you a significantly better way to do what you had already been training, and you were able to incorporate that method into your training going forward, then it might be a beneficial seminar. But if your regular training was really so inferior then maybe the real issue is you need a better teacher for your ongoing training. I suppose a seminar could point out that uncomfortable truth to you. At any rate, any changes to the standard training moving forward would need to have the regular instructor onboard with the plan.

I am having difficulty seeing any benefit in a seminar that teaches you something that you already know and train skillfully.

I am having difficulty seeing any benefit in a seminar that teaches you something new that will not be trained and maintained moving forward, and that does not contain an ongoing relationship with a skilled teacher who can help you make corrections and develop that skill over time. Because these things need more than a weekend or a week of “teaching” before you have it within your skillset.

Sometimes a seminar gives you benefits that are less obvious and less tangible. The most obvious would be in meeting new people and the possibility of new friendships and new training partners. The second would be in simply seeing how other people go about their training which can broaden one’s horizons. These things may lead to an increase in skill over time, but may not be directly as a result of the physical training from the seminar itself.

As you might expect from my previous posts, I have opinions on the subject.

Your last paragraph, I’m in full agreement with. I’ve been to a number of seminars where the only direct benefits I got were the fun of working out, meeting new friends, and getting some insight into how other people train.

I’ve also been to a number of seminars that I got significant direct benefit from. Of course, I still had to train what I learned in the weeks and months and years after the seminar.

To address your concerns about why you couldn’t just learn the same things in your regular school, I have a few answers.

The first scenario is one where the art you are training in is new to an area and there aren’t a lot of highly qualified instructors around.

When I started training ninjutsu, there were perhaps half a dozen black belts in the United States and none of them lived less than an 8 hour drive from where I did. So we had a small club that would bring in one of those black belts for a seminar every few months, and in-between we would practice whatever we had learned.

When I started training BJJ, there were some really good black belt instructors in the United States, but they mostly lived on the West Coast. I was in Ohio, where we had maybe one purple belt and a handful of blue belts. You better believe I made it to every BJJ seminar that I could and practiced everything I learned.

So, now BJJ has grown to the point where I’m one of about 20 black belts in my local metro area. Why would I go to a seminar now?

Well the first reason, as you allude to, is that sometimes the seminar instructor is just more skilled, more knowledgeable, or a better teacher than I am or my coach is. Despite what you seem to imply in your second paragraph, that doesn’t mean that my school is somehow deficient. It’s just that there are levels to this stuff. Some people are just at the top of their field worldwide and have information and insights and training methods that you won’t necessarily find in most schools. We get experience with these instructors and bring it back to improve our daily training.

Another reason can be just to get a different perspective on training and techniques. Every BJJ instructor I’ve worked with has their own individual way of moving and interpreting the art. Even my peers who trained at the same gym with me all have their own personal style which is different from mine and from each other. Sometimes having the chance to train with someone who comes from a different background will trigger “aha!” moments for me.

Sometimes the instructor might not be more knowledgeable overall than my coach or my peers or other local instructors, but they are especially knowledgeable in one particular area that I want to learn more about.

I will say that my preference is strongly in favor of seminars where the instructor goes deep into a limited area of study, focusing on how to make things really work, as compared to seminars where the instructor just dumps a ton of random techniques or combinations on the students with no effort to help them understand the information, retain it, or make it functional. I’ve been to seminars with some famous instructors that definitely fell into the latter category.

 

[GojuTommy]

A striker doesn't know hip throw. he goes to a workshop to learn it. Within 12 minutes, he uses hip throw to throw his opponent 20 times. He may still need to drill 20,000 times outside of that workshop to master that technique.

IMO, that 12 minutes is no difference between workshop and school class.

Even in a university, a professor will only meet you in class for 1 semester (3 months). After 3 months, you may never see him for the rest of your life. I just don't see the long term teacher dependency is needed.

You’re missing the point by miles here.

You can jump teacher to teacher every 3 months that’s fine no one cares about that.

In your university example though, what you learn under instructor A in your first semester you will build upon throughout the semester, and if that class is directly related to your major professor B in semester 2 will likely review what was learned in semester 1 and then build on it even further.

No one is doing any real learning if they don’t continue to follow through in drilling and practicing what they were taught.

Learning implies a level of competence, which means it’s an on going thing.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

you’ll do that hip throw 20, and then likely never again.

This is the part that I don't understand. You spend money to learn hip throw in a workshop. After workshop, you don't even practice it. Why do you go to workshop to learn hip throw in the first place?

No one is doing any real learning if they don’t continue to follow through in drilling and practicing what they were taught.

Learning implies a level of competence, which means it’s an on going thing.

But the "follow through" is individual's responsibility. One just can't expect his teacher to hold his hands forever.

I have learned a praying mantis form from a workshop back in 1980. I have trained that praying mantis form in the past 43 years.

 

[GojuTommy]

Having attended somewhere between 80-100 martial arts seminars over the last 38 years, I have to disagree with that. I still practice and use techniques and principles that I learned in seminars decades ago.



As you might expect from my previous posts, I have opinions on the subject.

Your last paragraph, I’m in full agreement with. I’ve been to a number of seminars where the only direct benefits I got were the fun of working out, meeting new friends, and getting some insight into how other people train.

I’ve also been to a number of seminars that I got significant direct benefit from. Of course, I still had to train what I learned in the weeks and months and years after the seminar.

To address your concerns about why you couldn’t just learn the same things in your regular school, I have a few answers.

The first scenario is one where the art you are training in is new to an area and there aren’t a lot of highly qualified instructors around.

When I started training ninjutsu, there were perhaps half a dozen black belts in the United States and none of them lived less than an 8 hour drive from where I did. So we had a small club that would bring in one of those black belts for a seminar every few months, and in-between we would practice whatever we had learned.

When I started training BJJ, there were some really good black belt instructors in the United States, but they mostly lived on the West Coast. I was in Ohio, where we had maybe one purple belt and a handful of blue belts. You better believe I made it to every BJJ seminar that I could and practiced everything I learned.

So, now BJJ has grown to the point where I’m one of about 20 black belts in my local metro area. Why would I go to a seminar now?

Well the first reason, as you allude to, is that sometimes the seminar instructor is just more skilled, more knowledgeable, or a better teacher than I am or my coach is. Despite what you seem to imply in your second paragraph, that doesn’t mean that my school is somehow deficient. It’s just that there are levels to this stuff. Some people are just at the top of their field worldwide and have information and insights and training methods that you won’t necessarily find in most schools. We get experience with these instructors and bring it back to improve our daily training.

Another reason can be just to get a different perspective on training and techniques. Every BJJ instructor I’ve worked with has their own individual way of moving and interpreting the art. Even my peers who trained at the same gym with me all have their own personal style which is different from mine and from each other. Sometimes having the chance to train with someone who comes from a different background will trigger “aha!” moments for me.

Sometimes the instructor might not be more knowledgeable overall than my coach or my peers or other local instructors, but they are especially knowledgeable in one particular area that I want to learn more about.

I will say that my preference is strongly in favor of seminars where the instructor goes deep into a limited area of study, focusing on how to make things really work, as compared to seminars where the instructor just dumps a ton of random techniques or combinations on the students with no effort to help them understand the information, retain it, or make it functional. I’ve been to seminars with some famous instructors that definitely fell into the latter category.

How much did you pay for those seminars? Most every seminar I’ve seen people are charging well over $100 for 3-8 hours of training/lecture time. That’s not remotely worth it to me.
As I’ve said, for advanced students I see more utility in seminars than for people who don’t qualify as advanced.
Someone who has trained 1 yr will get more out of a seminar than someone who has trained 1 month. Someone who has trained 5 yrs will likely get more than someone who has trained 1 yr.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

You’re missing the point by miles here.

I assume one will continue training after workshop. You assume one will stop training after workshop.

 

[GojuTommy]

This is the part that I don't understand. You spend money to learn hip throw in a workshop. After workshop, you don't even practice it. Why do you go to workshop to learn hip throw in the first place?


The "follow through" is individual's responsibility.

I have learned a praying mantis form from a workshop back in 1980. I have trained that praying mantis form in the past 43 years.

Someone already addressed why a striker going to a judo seminar likely won’t do a hip throw again in a reasonable time frame, he covered that pretty well.

I have already explained it in another post as.
People don’t typically go to seminars to learn what they expect to learn in class.

And the nature of memory is that it fades fast. So unless you set up a camera to record the seminar, by the time you get to a normal training session again a lot of that seminar is likely already forgotten, meaning even if you do try practicing it, the first time you try on your own you’re likely already doing some part of it wrong, and every time afterwards you’re probably forgetting more and more and doing more and more wrong.

Until you’ve achieved a level competence in something one session is pretty useless.

 

[GojuTommy]

I assume one will continue training after workshop. You assume one will stop training after workshop.

How is a boxer or kickboxer going to continue to train a hip throw afterwards? Their gym likely doesn’t have the mats to do it safely, they likely don’t have the partner willing to let them throw them and practice it, as mentioned before they don’t have someone with the requisite knowledge to correct the mistakes they make in their follow on practice.

I am seeing some very serious dunning Krueger here.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Someone who has trained 1 yr will get more out of a seminar than someone who has trained 1 month. Someone who has trained 5 yrs will likely get more than someone who has trained 1 yr.

This is absolute true and there is no argument about that.

Some people are very good at stealing MA knowledge from others. Sometime you can just learn from few words (without action).

Can you picture what technique that the following 2 persons are talking about? Is this information enough for some experience person to learn?

A: How did you take that person down?
B: I knee his leading leg. When he steps back, I hook his other leg.

 

[GojuTommy]

Without proper instruction and guidance until you achieve competence, you will begin forgetting small details almost immediately and the more time that passes the larger the details that fade into obscurity get.

Your Memory is like the Telephone Game

Each time you recall an event, your brain distorts it

news.northwestern.edu

Short Term Memory - an overview | ScienceDirect Topics

www.sciencedirect.com

Like old photographs, memories fade over time: People remember visual scenes, but the vibrancy of recall dims in just a few minutes

Past events are often vividly recollected. However, it remains unclear how the qualities of memories are reconstructed. A new study finds that as time passes, the visual information that illustrates our memories fades away.

www.sciencedaily.com

 

[GojuTommy]

I assume one will continue training after workshop. You assume one will stop training after workshop.

You assume someone will be capable effectively remembering what they learned to practice effectively.

I understand that the science of memory says they most likely won’t remember enough to practice properly and build effective competency