Collecting Training by the Famous

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I don't even know where to begin with this.

Yes.

You're trying to use my logic against me, but it doesn't fit this situation, so it just makes you look silly.

Yes.

Someone does not need to say "I'm offended" to clearly be offended with something. His response (which you liked, so I know you saw it) clearly implied that he was unhappy with what I was saying.

I assumed his response was the same as mine-that your statement was so ridiculous it was pointless continuing discussing. No emotions involved.

Your response suggests you're also offended that I would dare say that "trained with" has no requirements on whether it was once, many, or over the course of time.

You misunderstood my response then, as I was not weighing in on that at all. Nor do I particularly care. My viewpoint, as it has always been across multiple threads, is that if someone defines a word in a thread, when discussing with that person (not when they seem to just want an semantical argument, but an actual discussion), I will use their definition for the purposes of discussion.

But let's even say you are correct, and he wasn't offended. Then what's the point of coming to his defense, if I'm not being offensive? If you are correct, and he wasn't offended, why do you need to be so aggressive?

I'm not coming to his defense. He doesn't need me to come to his defense. I also fail to see how my post was aggressive.

You're a moderator on a martial arts forum, but you've been reduced to arguing like a teenager. On top of that, it wasn't even your argument!

I wouldn't even call this an argument. I gave up on that after your goalpost statement.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Old Chinese saying said, "Sometime it's better to learn from a friend than to learn from a teacher."

A teacher may try to hide important information from you so he can keep you as long as he can. A friend may share his honest opinion with you with no cost.

IMO, you may learn more and faster in a workshop environment than in a reqular class environment.

 

[Flying Crane]

… and I could in no way pass on what I learned from them at the seminar; it simply wasn't a set of training that stuck with me over the years. For that, I'd have had to train more, practice what I learned, and be corrected along the way by a valid instructor.

This is why I have no interest in seminars. They might be interesting in the moment, but in the long run they will do little or nothing to improve my knowledge and skills. Time and money are always in short supply. I choose to not spend them on seminars. I don’t see them as a good investment.

 

[dunc]

Whilst seminars have their place I've preferred to go deep with a small number of teachers, some of whom are famous
However, if I'm honest I think that over the years I've learnt more from their top students than them

 

[skribs]

I assumed his response was the same as mine-that your statement was so ridiculous it was pointless continuing discussing. No emotions involved.

So...why did you?

Nor do I particularly care.

So...why did you type up that post? Or this one?

I'm not coming to his defense. He doesn't need me to come to his defense.

So...why did you jump in, then?

I wouldn't even call this an argument. I gave up on that after your goalpost statement.

You're still arguing, but saying it isn't. Congratulations. I now know I can't trust anything you say.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

So...why did you?

So...why did you type up that post? Or this one?

So...why did you jump in, then?

You're still arguing, but saying it isn't. Congratulations. I now know I can't trust anything you say.

I wasn't going to. Then your reply had the exact same issue you were claiming, so I pointed that out. My first post was an attempt to point something out I was not involved in, which to me is different than an argument.

My next post where I said I was not arguing, was me clarifying my viewpoints, since I either miswrote, or you misunderstood. This one I guess you could say is us arguing about whether or not I was arguing, so now I guess I am.

 

[skribs]

Then your reply had the exact same issue you were claiming, so I pointed that out.

It really didn't.

He was getting upset that people claim to have done something that they have done. He may have defined it in this thread, but he's talking about what people have said outside of this thread.

To reuse an earlier example, if I were to start complaining about everyone calling the sky "blue" instead of "robin's egg blue", that would be me on a weird soap box that most people don't care about. However, if we were doing a study on which specific shade of blue the sky is, and people just referred to the sky as "blue", that's not really helpful for the study.

Similarly, if he were to post a thread asking who people have trained with, and explain that he means trained with for an extended period of time, but they were to say "I did a seminar with so-and-so", I could understand him not finding their input helpful. But to say "Why does everyone say they've done this, when they haven't met my standards." The answer is simple - your standards are too high.

 

[frank raud]

Ngl that seems like a weird requirement for rank advancement.

Eh, new organization ( to me). As they weren't totally aware of my martial arts history, they asked for my complete history.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

This is why I have no interest in seminars. They might be interesting in the moment, but in the long run they will do little or nothing to improve my knowledge and skills. Time and money are always in short supply. I choose to not spend them on seminars. I don’t see them as a good investment.

I don't do seminars anymore, but then I'm much less active than I was in general. Twice a week at the dojo from 5 PM to 7:30 and practice at home and I'm done.

 

[drop bear]

I did some boxing with the best cowboy who ever cowboyed.

That was kind of cool.

I didn't get a fanboy photo though.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Time and money are always in short supply. I choose to not spend them on seminars. I don’t see them as a good investment.

I had taught a 2 days 3 hours each workshop that cover 30 different principles and charged $120. That's pretty much $4 per principles.

撕(Si) - Tearing
崩(Beng) - Cracking
捅(Tong) - Striking push
褪(tun) - Hand pushing
肘(Zhou) - Elbow pressing
...

A student may have to spend several months in regular class time to learn all these information. So if a student can learn fast (such as 1 principle within 12 minutes), workshop can be a good deal for him.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I had taught a 2 days 3 hours each workshop that cover 30 different principles and charged $120. That's pretty much $4 per principles.

撕(Si) - Tearing
崩(Beng) - Cracking
捅(Tong) - Striking push
褪(tun) - Hand pushing
肘(Zhou) - Elbow pressing
...

A student may have to spend several months in regular class time to learn all these information. So if a student can learn fast (such as 1 principle in 12 minutes), workshop can be a good deal for him.

But if they spend several months in regular classes learning it, they're more likely to retain it, and hopefully will understand it more deeply. If they are leaning it essentially 12 minutes a principle, they are not learning it in-depth or getting enough practice to retain.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

But if they spend several months in regular classes learning it, they're more likely to retain it, and hopefully will understand it more deeply. If they are leaning it essentially 12 minutes a principle, they are not learning it in-depth or getting enough practice to retain.

This said, I enjoy seminars. They open new ways to do things, different methodologies to look at which is beneficial, and if you record and then practice afterwards you can get benefits from it.

If I were attending your workshops, I'd likely experience all of it in the moment, then afterwards think about 2-3 principles that are most important/beneficial to me, and focus on those for the following weeks.

I would not be attempting to incorporate all 30 principles as that, for me, would be setting myself up for failure.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

But if they spend several months in regular classes learning it, they're more likely to retain it, and hopefully will understand it more deeply. If they are leaning it essentially 12 minutes a principle, they are not learning it in-depth or getting enough practice to retain.

Workshop is for learning and not for training.

It depends on how fast a person can learn. But to learn from workshop is still cheaper than to learn from regular classes. If workshop students can get a copy of the workshop video, they can continue their learning at home.

A workshop instructor may be willing to share his knowledge. But a school teacher may hold you back just for your money.

One teacher told his student, "I will ask 3 questions. If anybody can answer those 3 questions, I'll pay him $10,000." What that teacher real meaning was, if that student want to learn those 3 techniques from him, he had to pay his teacher $10,000.

I know one Taiji instructor who won't teach the last 5 moves of his Taiji form until 3 years later. In other words, a student may have learned all the Taiji moves (except the last 5 moves) within a year. For the rest of the 2 years, the student is not learning but only training.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

It depends on how fast a person can learn. But to learn from workshop is still cheaper than to learn from regular classes.

The learning, definitely. But the retaining will only happen if they dedicate the time outside of the workshop on it, so time won't end up being saved. You're absolutely right on it being cheaper though, and for those who can't afford it (or would have to travel far), it's a good option.

 

[GojuTommy]

I had taught a 2 days 3 hours each workshop that cover 30 different principles and charged $120. That's pretty much $4 per principles.

撕(Si) - Tearing
崩(Beng) - Cracking
捅(Tong) - Striking push
褪(tun) - Hand pushing
肘(Zhou) - Elbow pressing
...

A student may have to spend several months in regular class time to learn all these information. So if a student can learn fast (such as 1 principle within 12 minutes), workshop can be a good deal for him.

A one off event over a weekend doesnt really impart much knowledge.

Seminars are great for the person getting paid, but for most students they’re not getting anything out of it.

Advanced students will likely benefit from a seminar if they immediately begin integrating that stuff into their training

 

[GojuTommy]

Workshop is for learning and not for training.

It depends on how fast a person can learn. But to learn from workshop is still cheaper than to learn from regular classes. If workshop students can get a copy of the workshop video, they can continue their learning at home.

A workshop instructor may be willing to share his knowledge. But a school teacher may hold you back just for your money.

Being shown or told something doesn’t equate to learning though.
The whole point of training is learning. That’s when you actually learn something is during training.

I can tell you how to do weekly maintenance on a mk38 a few hours each for a few days, doesn’t mean you’ll actually learn it, and be able to repeat any of it week later let alone a month or more later, let alone be able to actually do it.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Being shown or told something doesn’t equate to learning though.

You may learn something within 10 minutes. You may need to spend the rest of your life time to master it. To have something in your mind is not enough, you have to transfer onto your body (this take time).

You still have to spend the same amount of training time no matter you learn from a workshop, or from a regular class. IMO, it's just cheaper to learn from a workshop.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

trained with who are well-known, and by their fame.

It's just too expensive to learn from famous people.

Back in the 80th, When I invited my SC teacher to live in my house and taught me, I had to pay his round trip airfare (Taipei, Taiwan - Austin, Tx), room and board, plus $1,800 monthly. It was not cheat.

One of CMC's students told me that when Chang Min Ching taught Taiji in NYC back in the 70th, he charged $4,000 to learn just the Taiji form from him. If you want him to polish your Taiji form, you will have to pay him another $4,000. That was a lot of money back in the 70th (gasoline was only $0.23 per gallon).

 

[GojuTommy]

You may learn something within 10 minutes. You may need to spend the rest of your life time to master it. To have something in your mind is not enough, you have to transfer onto your body (this take time).

You still have to spend the same amount of training time no matter you learn from a workshop, or from a regular class. IMO, it's just cheaper to learn from a workshop.

Again, you’re not learning anything if you’re not retaining it. That’s how learning works.

Seminars are almost completely just scams