Collecting Training by the Famous

[jks9199]

I have a very small set of teachers -- people that I have trained under regularly and (I hope!) would identify me as a student.

I have a larger set of colleagues -- people that I have learned from, trained alongside, but would not place into that same category as "teacher." The ongoing relationship is different in character -- but they'd all almost certainly recognize and remember me.

There's a blurry subset of people that taught and teach specific material, but don't have wuite the same teacher relationship overall.

Then there's a set of folks that I have attended a class or seminar taught by. There's little or no ongoing relationship, they may or may not remember meeting me and probably the only real "proof" might be a photo with them. Sometimes, I'm even surprised when I realize who was in that photo with me!

When I look at someone's "I love me wall" of photos with dignataries of whatever stripe (politicians, martial artists, LE instructors, actors, etc.) I tend to look to for the evidence of the ones that go beyond a "grip and grin" session after a seminar. How they stand, shared expression, where they're looking... candids versus grip & grin... Personally, I'm often more impressed by the folks who don't need the "I love me" collection on display...

 

[Rich Parsons]

I've noticed some folks seem to set great store by the number of people they've trained with who are well-known, and by their fame. I also notice that these same people seem to have a different definition of 'trained with' than I do. I consider training with someone to be an ongoing situation. I've attended a few seminars with people who are more-or-less well-known in certain circles of my particular style of karate, but I don't consider myself to have 'trained with them' as they would not know me from Adam if someone mentioned my name to them. I was there when they were there and I did exercises that they were leading many of us in; once or twice. That's not 'training with' someone, is it? They're not my instructor.

I don't doubt that many famous martial artists are also great people to train with, so I kind of get it, but at the same time, it sort of turns me off. Like, training is about training, not how famous the person you train with is, isn't it? The fact that a person is famous is certainly interesting, but is it important? Is that something to try to 'collect' like a person would collect autographs or selfies with famous people?

Anyway, I'm interested in other's take on it. Maybe it's because I don't have a long list of the famous people I've brushed shoulders with, and I'm just jealous. Maybe it's just human nature to want to mention the well-known people we've been around in a training situation.

Bill,
I prefer the lets train part.
If they have something I am interested in learning then cool. If not then the test allows me to review and move on.
.
I have met some, who have been in TV and / or movies, and they were not fun or nice to be around. They were rude and dismissive and demanding and had expectations. I did not want to train with them or see what they had, as they ruined any interest with their attitudes.
Some did not want to open up even as I was support a friend at a show and helping at a table and the person next to us was selling pictures and autographs and was not open for conversations or discussion even when no one was around. So we didn't talk.
I would watch his table when he needed to take a Bio Break, and did the same thing the next year.
.
One "Movie Star" was angry and disgruntled and even got into with it at a meet greet one night. (Alcohol involved) and Bill Superfoot Wallace one of the "Principals" / Named people there was also watching out for this guy. It looked like it would get physical and I stood up and took Bill's Back. They other "side" decided it was best to move on. Bill escorted the other "Principal" out. Yet, he did stop and say thank you to me for having his back . I told him it was his and not the other guys. He smiled and laughed and said yes just trying to keep the head table in tact for the event. And then did the escort out. It was not the first time I had had a conversation with Bill Superfoot Wallace.
I am not interested in his system, yet I respect the man a lot. He seems to care about people in general and wants make people have fun and enjoy training.
..
An associate ( martial arts friend) who had the same Balintawak instructor as I, wanted me to meet his other Instructor. JKD Guro Dan Inosanto. The even was on a Saturday, unfortunately I had some work that weekend and also chores at my Dad's house. I stopped on the way from one to the other, and as it was local most of the people in attendance knew me. Guro Dan (written with respect for his knowledge and time in training and teaching) was not really happy with me showing up so late, and waiting for a break I was introduced and he was not happy at all about it. I ended the conversation as soon as possible and Talked to a few others, and then left. I had Day light chores at my dad's as stated. The person who invited me apologized later. I said not to worry, bad day, unaware, what ever.
Yet I have no interest in attending a seminar or camp for him.
..
I did teach at an event with his Daughter and Son-in-law in Mesa AZ area. He was really polite, and she seems more cautious , and yet I was not offended nor concerned. She was just cautious. She had just come off set from Stunt double and fight choreography. In the future if the opportunity aligned I would consider it.
..
And yet, I would not consider a seminar or even a 3 - 4 day camp making anyone my student, nor having then consider me a student. .
.
Being Famous means nothing to me. Being approachable and interacting and wanting to be present at the event means more to me.
These 'Teachers' also need to understand they may need multiple interactions to make a decision on students, the prospect students can make their decision many times in one event based upon their interactions.
..
The above means nothing to anyone else, just me. So I expect no one to take what I wrote and act upon it. As always go check out on your own and make your own decisions.

 

[hoshin1600]

Like others here, I have had the great luck and opportunity to have done seminars with more people than I can remember. My biggest regret is not taking those photo opportunities. Many of those missed moments were with great martial artists who have now passed away.
There are a handful of people who I would attend their seminars, be their demo partner, work with them one on one off to the side during off times and eat dinner with them after. A few had a major impact on my own development that I owe them the greatest of gratitude. Are they my teacher? No. Maybe I could call them a mentor. Not sure if that's appropriate but it feels right.
Some may use that posed photo as an ego boost. But I sure would have liked to have it, so I can remember those times and say thank you.

Gushi sensei
Toyota sensei
Tomoyose sensei
Van
Jimmy
A heart felt thank you

 

[frank raud]

I was thinking about making a list of all the seminars I've attended and seeing how many of the instructors would even be recognized by the martial arts nerds here, but then I realized that I can't even remember the names of all of them. I did figure out that it's been probably between 80-100 seminars over the last 38 years with about 50-60 different instructors. A small handful of them were prominent enough that their names might be recognized by martial artists outside their own style. Another dozen or so would be widely known within their own styles, even by people who had no association with them. The rest would primarily be known by practitioners of the same art within the same association or geographic area.

But if I had taken pictures with all of them and held on to all the seminar attendance certificates, I could plaster the walls of my dojo office. (If I had my own dojo with an office.)

When I was going for my 4th Dan, I had to list all my martial arts training, schools, belts, OK. When it came to seminars, it was challenging trying to remember back to 1985 and how many seminars I've attended. Turns out, it was a lot.

 

[GojuTommy]

Trained with is past tense, so if you have trained even 1 session with someone you have trained with them.

Train with or training with is present and/or future tense.

For example I have trained with Icey mike. One could say I continue to train his curriculum to a degree since I also use his videos to help continue and further my current training.

Some people will use the past training to deceive, and make it seem like they did more training with the person than they did. That imho is problematic. However if people are honest about what that training is who cares?

 

[GojuTommy]

I love going to seminars and so have had the chance to meet some fairly well known martial artists. (I won't say "famous" exactly, because unless a martial artist happens to be a movie star or a UFC champion, most people outside a fairly limited circle won't really know who they are*.) My thoughts ...

Fame, skill, and teaching ability aren't particularly well correlated.

Even if the seminar instructor isn't that great of a teacher, I still generally enjoy myself. Just meeting new people and trying new things in a martial arts context is fun.

Like you, I wouldn't refer to seminar experiences as "training with" someone unless they were frequent enough that I had a personal relationship with the instructor so that they knew who I was and they were actively involved in my development as a martial artist. I do have friends who have spent years developing that sort of training relationship with an out-of-town instructor that they mostly only saw at seminars. Those people I think could fairly say that they "trained with" so-and-so. I wouldn't say I've had that sort of relationship even with the instructors I've seen in numerous seminars.

I will give credit to the instructor if I learned something particularly cool at their seminar that I haven't encountered elsewhere.

Fame is relative.
A person doesn’t have to be known to the general public at large to be considered famous.

Gabriel Varga is undoubtedly famous as a 6 time KB world champion.

YouTubers can can millions of fans but still not be known to the world in general. Dhar Mann has nearly 18m subscribers. He’s undoubtedly famous but most people probably don’t have a clue who he is

 

[skribs]

I consider training with someone to be an ongoing situation. I've attended a few seminars with people who are more-or-less well-known in certain circles of my particular style of karate, but I don't consider myself to have 'trained with them' as they would not know me from Adam if someone mentioned my name to them.

You're applying an additional requirement beyond the definition of the word. "Trained with" can mean for an extended period of time, but the phrase itself can also be applied to a single instance.

I don't doubt that many famous martial artists are also great people to train with, so I kind of get it, but at the same time, it sort of turns me off. Like, training is about training, not how famous the person you train with is, isn't it? The fact that a person is famous is certainly interesting, but is it important? Is that something to try to 'collect' like a person would collect autographs or selfies with famous people?

Most people who are famous for doing something are famous because they are good at it.

 

[GojuTommy]

You're applying an additional requirement beyond the definition of the word. "Trained with" can mean for an extended period of time, but the phrase itself can also be applied to a single instance.

Most people who are famous for doing something are famous because they are good at it.

I think his issue is when people use these claims to mislead.

Like if I began advertising at my school that I trained with Icey mike, and had the photo I took with him up on the wall very noticeable. I spent a week with him and did every class but the BJJ class(not taught by him any way) and the strength and conditioning class, that was offered in that week. So yes I did train with him (arguably for a prolonged period of time) but using that claim as a specific marketing tool and actively trying to make it seem like I trained with him more than I did is where I think bill is having issue and wanting a more nuanced definition of what it means to train with someone.

 

[GojuTommy]

When I was going for my 4th Dan, I had to list all my martial arts training, schools, belts, OK. When it came to seminars, it was challenging trying to remember back to 1985 and how many seminars I've attended. Turns out, it was a lot.

Ngl that seems like a weird requirement for rank advancement.

 

[GojuTommy]

I have a very small set of teachers -- people that I have trained under regularly and (I hope!) would identify me as a student.

I have a larger set of colleagues -- people that I have learned from, trained alongside, but would not place into that same category as "teacher." The ongoing relationship is different in character -- but they'd all almost certainly recognize and remember me.

There's a blurry subset of people that taught and teach specific material, but don't have wuite the same teacher relationship overall.

Then there's a set of folks that I have attended a class or seminar taught by. There's little or no ongoing relationship, they may or may not remember meeting me and probably the only real "proof" might be a photo with them. Sometimes, I'm even surprised when I realize who was in that photo with me!

When I look at someone's "I love me wall" of photos with dignataries of whatever stripe (politicians, martial artists, LE instructors, actors, etc.) I tend to look to for the evidence of the ones that go beyond a "grip and grin" session after a seminar. How they stand, shared expression, where they're looking... candids versus grip & grin... Personally, I'm often more impressed by the folks who don't need the "I love me" collection on display...

The walls aren’t meant for you, they’re meant to impress newbies and an easy way to help convince people to train there without even having to speak to a potential client.
Cheap and easy marketing.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

You're applying an additional requirement beyond the definition of the word. "Trained with" can mean for an extended period of time, but the phrase itself can also be applied to a single instance.

Most people who are famous for doing something are famous because they are good at it.

I guess.

I mean, I had forgotten about this, but I was once asked to attend a local seminar hosted by a sensei I happened to know, featuring a famous actor who was once a Power Ranger and now taught his own style of martial arts. We were asked to bring a bo. Sounded interesting, so I ponied up the $50 and showed up.

It was 2 hours of leaning on my bo and 'breathing'. I mean like six different postures, sitting, kneeling, and standing, while putting body weight on the grounded bo and closing our eyes and breathing. Not even a particular type of breathing, like hara or ibuki breathing, but just regular normal breathing. This wasn't a warm up, this was the martial art. Just breathing while holding a stick.

I am told this actor is a great martial artist in addition to having been famous for being a Power Ranger. Won tournaments, etc. Many at the seminar were gushing about how 'empowered' the felt after the seminar.

I felt ripped off, to be honest. And I was only a green belt at the time.

Now that I'm a 3rd Dan black belt, I *know* I was ripped off. I've learned a lot about breathing. I'm far, far, from an expert, but I know what it is in relationship to martial arts; and that wasn't it.

But yeah, I could claim to have 'trained with' that famous actor/martial artist/Power Ranger, I reckon. I won't, though. I have more respect for myself than that.

 

[skribs]

I guess.

I mean, I had forgotten about this, but I was once asked to attend a local seminar hosted by a sensei I happened to know, featuring a famous actor who was once a Power Ranger and now taught his own style of martial arts. We were asked to bring a bo. Sounded interesting, so I ponied up the $50 and showed up.

It was 2 hours of leaning on my bo and 'breathing'. I mean like six different postures, sitting, kneeling, and standing, while putting body weight on the grounded bo and closing our eyes and breathing. Not even a particular type of breathing, like hara or ibuki breathing, but just regular normal breathing. This wasn't a warm up, this was the martial art. Just breathing while holding a stick.

I am told this actor is a great martial artist in addition to having been famous for being a Power Ranger. Won tournaments, etc. Many at the seminar were gushing about how 'empowered' the felt after the seminar.

I felt ripped off, to be honest. And I was only a green belt at the time.

Now that I'm a 3rd Dan black belt, I *know* I was ripped off. I've learned a lot about breathing. I'm far, far, from an expert, but I know what it is in relationship to martial arts; and that wasn't it.

But yeah, I could claim to have 'trained with' that famous actor/martial artist/Power Ranger, I reckon. I won't, though. I have more respect for myself than that.

I remember (before I started BJJ) I was in an argument with a BJJ guy about whether or not we pressure test in Hapkido. His position was that because he took an Aikido class one time, he knows exactly how we train in Hapkido.

I think you might be letting your bad experience color the whole thing. That's negatively impacting your opinion of others, who might have actually gotten something out of class with famous people.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I remember (before I started BJJ) I was in an argument with a BJJ guy about whether or not we pressure test in Hapkido. His position was that because he took an Aikido class one time, he knows exactly how we train in Hapkido.

I think you might be letting your bad experience color the whole thing. That's negatively impacting your opinion of others, who might have actually gotten something out of class with famous people.

I have attended seminars which were eye-opening to me. Some of them were with people here. Knife fighters, stick fighters, and so on. I learned a lot. I was humbled. Not all of my experiences at seminars have been bad.

But I still would not say I 'trained with' them. I was not their student, and I could in no way pass on what I learned from them at the seminar; it simply wasn't a set of training that stuck with me over the years. For that, I'd have had to train more, practice what I learned, and be corrected along the way by a valid instructor. So although I consider them my friends, and I highly respect their capabilities, I did not in any sense train with them. I attended a seminar. That's all.

 

[skribs]

I have attended seminars which were eye-opening to me. Some of them were with people here. Knife fighters, stick fighters, and so on. I learned a lot. I was humbled. Not all of my experiences at seminars have been bad.

But I still would not say I 'trained with' them. I was not their student, and I could in no way pass on what I learned from them at the seminar; it simply wasn't a set of training that stuck with me over the years. For that, I'd have had to train more, practice what I learned, and be corrected along the way by a valid instructor. So although I consider them my friends, and I highly respect their capabilities, I did not in any sense train with them. I attended a seminar. That's all.

So would a couple who had a one night stand have not been together because they didn't have a relationship?

"Trained together" as a phrase means you've trained together at least once. You're moving the goalposts here.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

So would a couple who had a one night stand have not been together because they didn't have a relationship?

"Trained together" as a phrase means you've trained together at least once. You're moving the goalposts here.

When someone specifies their goalposts in the first post on a thread, and sticks with that, they're not moving the goalposts. Even if you disagree with what those goalposts are/where they should be.

 

[skribs]

When someone specifies their goalposts in the first post on a thread, and sticks with that, they're not moving the goalposts. Even if you disagree with what those goalposts are/where they should be.

They're moving it from the definition of the word, as most people understand it. It would be like me saying, "The sky is actually robin's egg blue, why does everyone say the sky is blue?"

 

[Bill Mattocks]

So would a couple who had a one night stand have not been together because they didn't have a relationship?

"Trained together" as a phrase means you've trained together at least once. You're moving the goalposts here.

OK. Thanks for the conversation. Bye.

 

[skribs]

I'm merely trying to point out that when you change the definition of a word or phrase, you can't be shocked that everyone else uses it differently than you do. Or, in this case, you apply a higher standard than the definition requires.

If you find it so offensive that other people read a phrase and don't apply additional conditions on top of that, I really don't know how you can ever have a conversation.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I'm merely trying to point out that when you change the definition of a word or phrase, you can't be shocked that everyone else uses it differently than you do. Or, in this case, you apply a higher standard than the definition requires.

If you find it so offensive that other people read a phrase and don't apply additional conditions on top of that, I really don't know how you can ever have a conversation.

I think you might be moving the goalposts of what offensive means. More specifically, you're applying a lower standard than the definition requires, as Bill stated nowhere that he was deeply hurt, upset or angry by you.

 

[skribs]

I think you might be moving the goalposts of what offensive means. More specifically, you're applying a lower standard than the definition requires, as Bill stated nowhere that he was deeply hurt, upset or angry by you.

I don't even know where to begin with this.

You're trying to use my logic against me, but it doesn't fit this situation, so it just makes you look silly. It's like when you're copying someone's work, but they have a different test than you, so all of your answers are wrong.

Someone does not need to say "I'm offended" to clearly be offended with something. His response (which you liked, so I know you saw it) clearly implied that he was unhappy with what I was saying. Your response suggests you're also offended that I would dare say that "trained with" has no requirements on whether it was once, many, or over the course of time.

But let's even say you are correct, and he wasn't offended. Then what's the point of coming to his defense, if I'm not being offensive? If you are correct, and he wasn't offended, why do you need to be so aggressive?

You're a moderator on a martial arts forum, but you've been reduced to arguing like a teenager. On top of that, it wasn't even your argument!