cdhall
Master Black Belt
Amen to that. According to one of the BMIs I am obese. My doctor said to ignore that BMI stuff as well but that I should not cross into their obese category.
Funny that even overweight I can still fight for 45mins after teaching class for an hour and a half and qualify for the State Championships in 3 categories...
I'm going to be dangerous when I lose 20 more pounds.
Right on, Ian.
However they do the BMI indexes, they are screwy. One told me that for 5'9" I needed to be down around 120lbs but then when I typed that into the calculator, it was not a valid measurement and they told me I was very below average, so they didn't even like their own numbers. How stupid.
Body Fat % is the way to calculate I think. I think Covert Bailey says men should be below 14%. It's in his New Fit or Fat book. I'm not sure what my % is, but it is over 14%. I will be looking into that more as I prepare for my next grading.
Oh, I also think that the contention that you don't have to be athletic to make Kenpo work is the crux of the issue. If we all had to do jump-spinning sidekicks and break a stack of boards that were held 5ft in the air for every black belt exam, or once a year or whatever, I think this would be less of an issue.
I've seen some of our big seniors and we used to have a big guy in my original studio, and this may be another thread but I don't know how some of these guys move so fast and are so coordinated.
We used to have a guy that was about 6ft, probably 250-300lbs, maybe a bit more, and he would fight from like a Reverse Bow and his Favorite technique was a Spinning Axe Kick off his Rear Leg! I could never figure this out. How could he shift all that weight and spin and hit you in the face with his foot and be that big?
He did this with impunity. He was no fun to spar because even if you hit him it was like throwing popcorn at a brick wall.
But anyway, I have seen some big guys who could still move and that surprises me.
J
jeffkyle
Guest
Yeah! But can they catch me when I am running from them? LOL! Just kidding!
Kalicombat
Green Belt
I cant speak for any kenpo masters, seniors, or any other kenpo practitioner, but I can speak for myself and my experience about being an overweight kenpoist, but more importantly an overweight person. The one mistake alot of people make, including average built kenpoists, is that they verbalize their disapproval of people in general being overweight. Take this from a former 500 pounder, WE DONT CARE ABOUT YOUR OPINION. You are not offering any positivity when you post snide remarks, jokes, and comments. Ive lived with these for 34 of my 37 years, and have put alot of pain out there to those that have felt compelled to bring my obesity to my attention. Long before I knew what kenpo was or who SGM Ed Parker was, I was using a brick, bottle, or baseball bat to drive this point home.
People see a fat person and wonder how they can let themselves get that way, why they dont care, how can they disrespect themselves........Its not that way. Its a vicious cycle, at least for me, that compounds itself. It is not an easy task to overcome, but it is possible, and unless you've had to fight your way out of it, you have no idea what I am talking about. If you know an overweight person, and you think you want to help them, do it privately, and let them know that you'll help them with exercise, motivation, etc.... but dont post an idiotic put-down on a public forum and expect your friend to read it and automatically just say yeah, your right, and drop 100 pounds over night.
When I was over 500 pounds, people I didnt even know would find it necessary to let me know I was fat, stare, offer a joke, or some other form of negative put down, and it ALWAYS ended in a problem, usually for them. They saw a fat guy that let himself go, made their comment and then expected to go about their business. I saw an idiot, looking at me as a mark, and when I heard what they had to say, I heard the echoes of an entire lifetime of the same sort of thing, from classmates, parents, coaches, etc... and I fought back. The funny thing about all of this is alot of the idiots would have ear rings, or long hair, a new car they were proud of, or some other vulnerable point that a person with no restraint could manipulate. People in general have a limit to which they will go to, with out crossing, to drive home a point. Not all of us do.
Yours in Kenpo,
Gary Catherman
People see a fat person and wonder how they can let themselves get that way, why they dont care, how can they disrespect themselves........Its not that way. Its a vicious cycle, at least for me, that compounds itself. It is not an easy task to overcome, but it is possible, and unless you've had to fight your way out of it, you have no idea what I am talking about. If you know an overweight person, and you think you want to help them, do it privately, and let them know that you'll help them with exercise, motivation, etc.... but dont post an idiotic put-down on a public forum and expect your friend to read it and automatically just say yeah, your right, and drop 100 pounds over night.
When I was over 500 pounds, people I didnt even know would find it necessary to let me know I was fat, stare, offer a joke, or some other form of negative put down, and it ALWAYS ended in a problem, usually for them. They saw a fat guy that let himself go, made their comment and then expected to go about their business. I saw an idiot, looking at me as a mark, and when I heard what they had to say, I heard the echoes of an entire lifetime of the same sort of thing, from classmates, parents, coaches, etc... and I fought back. The funny thing about all of this is alot of the idiots would have ear rings, or long hair, a new car they were proud of, or some other vulnerable point that a person with no restraint could manipulate. People in general have a limit to which they will go to, with out crossing, to drive home a point. Not all of us do.
Yours in Kenpo,
Gary Catherman
Very scary indeed! The only thing more impressive than a little guy who can explode, move, kick and whip with focus power and decisive conviction, is seeing a big man who can do the same thing. Guess which one generally hits harder.
I like to think of something I have mentioned earlier, and that is the Concept of Critical Mass, as it applies to Body Momentum or Gravitational Marriage. It is less applicable in Rotation, the width dimension, except that even rotating, the size of the weapon (your arm) and it's actual mass, lends weight to your strike.
Smaller guys can hit hard, penetrate, and like my ex-instructor, have awfully bony elbows and knees, making Surface Concentration something felt, not just talked about. Mobility or physical speed may, or may not be superior, I think this is on a case by case basis and contingent on your training. None-the-less, what occurs to me, as I have struggled with my weight my whole life, is "Who really wants a fat Karate Teacher?" "How is this marketing yourself?" "Is it really good for my health, self-image, and self-esteem, to be obese?"
You can only answer these questions yourself, and yes, I know it is extremely difficult to lose weight when it has been there a lifetime. You will see pictures on my webpage where I was a nice 170-180, then the past decade 210-230, and now holding around 198. It has, and is tough. None the less I feel better for it.
I know a bunch of big Seniors. I know an equal number who are not big. The middle age spread hits us all, and exercise is not sufficient to control it as we get older. We naturally lose muscle mass, which is what burns the calories. The more fat, the less efficient the engine runs and the more calories are stored as fat, hence the circle of gaining weight.
It don't mean you can't kick butt and rip, tear, rend and explode when you are larger, but it does take more effort unless you have ALWAYS done it that way. And in fact you learn more economical ways of moving to compensate yet keep the techniques true to themselves.
Sorry for the rant, but a subject close to my heart ... well stomach anyway. :soapbox:
I like to think of something I have mentioned earlier, and that is the Concept of Critical Mass, as it applies to Body Momentum or Gravitational Marriage. It is less applicable in Rotation, the width dimension, except that even rotating, the size of the weapon (your arm) and it's actual mass, lends weight to your strike.
Smaller guys can hit hard, penetrate, and like my ex-instructor, have awfully bony elbows and knees, making Surface Concentration something felt, not just talked about. Mobility or physical speed may, or may not be superior, I think this is on a case by case basis and contingent on your training. None-the-less, what occurs to me, as I have struggled with my weight my whole life, is "Who really wants a fat Karate Teacher?" "How is this marketing yourself?" "Is it really good for my health, self-image, and self-esteem, to be obese?"
You can only answer these questions yourself, and yes, I know it is extremely difficult to lose weight when it has been there a lifetime. You will see pictures on my webpage where I was a nice 170-180, then the past decade 210-230, and now holding around 198. It has, and is tough. None the less I feel better for it.
I know a bunch of big Seniors. I know an equal number who are not big. The middle age spread hits us all, and exercise is not sufficient to control it as we get older. We naturally lose muscle mass, which is what burns the calories. The more fat, the less efficient the engine runs and the more calories are stored as fat, hence the circle of gaining weight.
It don't mean you can't kick butt and rip, tear, rend and explode when you are larger, but it does take more effort unless you have ALWAYS done it that way. And in fact you learn more economical ways of moving to compensate yet keep the techniques true to themselves.
Sorry for the rant, but a subject close to my heart ... well stomach anyway. :soapbox:
I'll take that as you having no idea as to what I'm talking about! If someone weighs 300 lbs, is overweight, out of shape, no stamina, how long do you honestly think that this person is going to last before they run out of gas??? The bigger you are, the more weight you have to move. If they are up against a person who is in better shape, more stamina, etc. it will only be a matter of wearing down the bigger guy. Then the one who is more in shape, moves in for the kill!
MJS
MJS, or perhaps you have no idea what you are talking about?
I'm 296 pounds. I am out of shape and can't walk up a flight of stairs without huffing and puffing as if my lungs want to jump out of my body and beat me to death for overexerting myself. In a sparring match it takes all of 30 seconds for me to run out of gas and want to collapse. Hey, it sounds like I'm the proof that you are right. WRONG!
I can still run 10 miles non-stop if I push myself. I may go slow and I may feel like I'm ready to pass out and I may puke a few times along the way but I can still make it. It doesn't matter that I have arthritis in every joint in my body.. yeah, my legs give out under the stress but I crawl back to my feet and keep running.
I still can grapple two hours straight being tag teamed by fresh guys. I may not have the explosiveness and may take a little longer to sink the choke or lock but I still can do it if I push myself.
I can still do 30 minutes straight on the heavy bag, going full force the whole time. In the end my knees will literally buckle after being so tired and I'll fall and sometimes I'll crawl back to my feet and keep kicking.
I've been in plenty of actual fights too. Not a single one of them lasted for more than 5 minutes, whether I was the victor or loser. Believe me, everyone was gassed and it wasn't being gassed that determined who the winner was. The winner is always the one with the most heart, the most desire to win, the person who had the most riding on the fight. Mind over matter. If you just refuse to lose or quit and are always willing to crawl back to your feet no matter how much it hurts there is a good chance that you'll be the victor.
The example that you provide is true when you look at sporting events such as the UFC or pride fights when both fighters are there and they both are fighting for a prize but will still earn some money if they lose. However, it isn't a good example of real life where the stakes are either much lower or are much higher.
NEVER assume that your being in shape will make you the victor over a guy who isn't. You don't know how hard that big guy might be willing to push back.
I'm 296 pounds. I am out of shape and can't walk up a flight of stairs without huffing and puffing as if my lungs want to jump out of my body and beat me to death for overexerting myself. In a sparring match it takes all of 30 seconds for me to run out of gas and want to collapse. Hey, it sounds like I'm the proof that you are right. WRONG!
I can still run 10 miles non-stop if I push myself. I may go slow and I may feel like I'm ready to pass out and I may puke a few times along the way but I can still make it. It doesn't matter that I have arthritis in every joint in my body.. yeah, my legs give out under the stress but I crawl back to my feet and keep running.
I still can grapple two hours straight being tag teamed by fresh guys. I may not have the explosiveness and may take a little longer to sink the choke or lock but I still can do it if I push myself.
I can still do 30 minutes straight on the heavy bag, going full force the whole time. In the end my knees will literally buckle after being so tired and I'll fall and sometimes I'll crawl back to my feet and keep kicking.
I've been in plenty of actual fights too. Not a single one of them lasted for more than 5 minutes, whether I was the victor or loser. Believe me, everyone was gassed and it wasn't being gassed that determined who the winner was. The winner is always the one with the most heart, the most desire to win, the person who had the most riding on the fight. Mind over matter. If you just refuse to lose or quit and are always willing to crawl back to your feet no matter how much it hurts there is a good chance that you'll be the victor.
The example that you provide is true when you look at sporting events such as the UFC or pride fights when both fighters are there and they both are fighting for a prize but will still earn some money if they lose. However, it isn't a good example of real life where the stakes are either much lower or are much higher.
NEVER assume that your being in shape will make you the victor over a guy who isn't. You don't know how hard that big guy might be willing to push back.
cdhall
Master Black Belt
Mr. Catherman:
For what it is worth here is what I do.
When I see someone who is 20-30lbs, maybe 50lbs overweight, it is hard to tell by looking, but I hope you see where I'm going. Someone like myself who looks OK but seems to be carrying to much weight, I tend to think like you posted above. That they "let themselves slide" as I have done gaining 30lbs myself. After I quit being a Waiter I gained a lot of weight quickly. I guess "powerwallking" a few miles a day is good exercise.
But what I want to get across is that if I see someone who is Really overweight. Where they move slow, where it is obvious that they are not just "carrying" a bit too much weight but that it is interfering with them, then I think that there may be genetic issues, injuries may be involved, maybe they were even brought up on a poor diet. But I do not stare at them or think ill of them or criticize them.
I have 2 children. When they see someone like this or make a comment about a really large person, I usually tell them that they probably have such a problem and that they probably need help. I don't tell them "Yeah, they need to take care of themselves." But I usually do tell them that diet and exercise are important but in some cases that may not be enough; and again, in the case of Thyroid problems, slow metabolisms (same thing?), injuries that prohibit working out, they may be doing quite a lot but just can't do enough. I know that if money were not an issue, there are enough clinics and experts and medications that we could help anyone. Richard Simmons has done it on TV a few times, but not everyone can afford to have someone like that work with them every day. And for all I know medication may still be necessary to permanently correct an underlying biological malfunction.
I'm sure you don't think that everyone jeers at obese people. But I thought putting my thoughts up here might do some good. I hope so.
And I think I remember you from one of Mr. Duffy's camp by the way and if I recall you carved me up pretty good during knife fighting.
Like the good book says, "Judge not." Particularly if, like me, you need to lose some weight yourself. I know most of my weight problem is diet and exercise, there is nothing wrong with me. My priorities just need realigning. I've been making progress since my recent surgery. It was a good time to go on a diet. :asian:
First, let me say again, that I am not comparing this to NHB. I stated this in my first post. You mention being out of shape, not being able to go up a flight of stairs w/o gasping for air, running 10 miles w/o stopping, except to puke, etc. However, you are still slowing down. You mention your knees feeling like they are going to buckle out from under you,etc. You mention that you can do all these things, 'If you push yourself.' Don't you think that when you slow down, that this leaves just a little opening in your reaction? Granted, not everybody that you will fight will be a marathon runner, but by slowing down, there is that chance that the other guy will be able to take advantage of that.
By all means, I am not Mr. Universe either, but I find it a little hard to believe that you can't spar for more than 30sec before losing wind, but you can grapple for 2hrs?? For my 1st degree balck belt test, sparring was a big part of it. The entire test was physical. In addition to sparring the others that were testing with me and equally tired, I also fought mult. rounds with fresh people. Yeah, I made it, but I was also getting the s**t kicked out of me. I was so tired, that the punches and kicks that I was throwing were starting to be telegraphed. Granted this was not a life and death situation, but imagine if you had to fight more than 1 person. Anybody that is in better shape always has that small advantage, and it only takes 1 mistake on your part for them to capitalize on it!
Mike
Perhaps I did exaggerate a little. I can probably go a little longer in sparring. It probably takes about a minute and a half for me to get really gassed fighting stand-up. Mostly because I hate point sparring, I suck at it and so being frustrated helps gas me all that much quicker. I'm not much better at ground fighting, but I like it a whole lot better so I don't get as frustrated, just as I can go for a little longer in full contact stand-up because I am better at it and don't get so frustrated.
The knees giving out are part of the arthritis. My knees can give out at any given moment whether I'm fully rested or extremely tired, though more often when I'm extremely tired. Yes, I've gotten slower over the years just as I've gotten fatter. Yes the slower reaction time can be taken advantage of, but does that mean that the guy is going to have any easier time 'going in for the kill?' The point I was trying to make was that it doesn't really matter about the size and shape. Getting 'the kill' isn't as easy as people like to imagine. Even if they are gassed and totally open to the shots, some people can take them and come right on back.
The knees giving out are part of the arthritis. My knees can give out at any given moment whether I'm fully rested or extremely tired, though more often when I'm extremely tired. Yes, I've gotten slower over the years just as I've gotten fatter. Yes the slower reaction time can be taken advantage of, but does that mean that the guy is going to have any easier time 'going in for the kill?' The point I was trying to make was that it doesn't really matter about the size and shape. Getting 'the kill' isn't as easy as people like to imagine. Even if they are gassed and totally open to the shots, some people can take them and come right on back.
Thanks for clearing that up for me! As for the reaction time, if the person does not have enough 'gas' to keep going, to block, etc, then wouldnt you think that he is going to be taking alot of shots? I mean, if the out of shape guy does not bring his hand up to block quick enough, he's going to take that shot in the face right? While it might not end with one punch, the accumulation of hits will start to take its toll. Just like getting cut with a knife. A little 'nick' isnt going to stop the person, but cut after cut after cut will! Its no different with the strikes and kicks.
MJS
J
jeffkyle
Guest
Your comment was just a bit odd...that is all! I knew what you meant! :shrug:
Kalicombat
Green Belt
B
brianhunter
Guest
Man..you need some street time! You can't move in for the kill if the "big guy" has you already down for the count. There are big guys out there that can do it pretty quick wieght, stamina, and physical condition not considered....Think butterbean...Im sure the guy (johnny knoxville) in Jackass the movie thought hed just wear ole butterbean down and move in for the kill huh?? He got knocked the f#ck out!
And like KC, you are an expert on streetfighting too??? I never saw the movie, but are you compariing a movie to real life?? Come on pal, its just that, a movie!!! A big person will use their weight and size to their advantage. You are also assuming that the 'big guy' already has the advantage. Size isnt everything. Its the skills that matter. Regardless of how big the guy is, an eye jab or hit to the groin is going to get a reaction. What really matters is the person who is quicker. If you can get in with some devastating shots, its not going to matter who is bigger.
Also, don't assume that you know me or my training. Assuming does only one thing....it makes an a** out of you!
MJS
B
brianhunter
Guest
And vice versa, you don't know me, my training, or what I do for a living. Some people here on the board do and I can bet that I see a lot more "real world" then you ever will. I think your theory of "wearing the guy down then moving in for the kill" leads me to believe you learned how to fight watching Van Damme movies, most real fights dont even last more then one minute, two tops! People dont form a circle and scream kumite while your dipping your soaked taped hands in glass....most the times it started and ended before most people can blink....big guys, little guys,skinny guys, fat guys whatever can hold there own for that period of time, I was just initially disagreeing with your point of "they will run out of gas" and you moving in for the kill theory. Its silly and speaks of your real world experience. Your so busy screaming about assumptions while on the other hand your making plenty about others and their fighting methods and experience.
Ive tried to restrain and fight 115 lb ladies that would scare you to death when they are fired up or on dope, and also the fat 300 lb guy you speak of whos drunk and takes 4-5 guys with him on the way out he doesnt run out of gas untill long after the adreniline is gone.
"an eye jab or hit to the groin is going to get a reaction"
Ever fought someone cranked up on meth? I have......ever fought a mentally crazy person who is off of their psyhchotic meds for a week or two? I have.......or the 300lb drunk who doesnt run out of gas? I have....The reaction to the groin kicked might be getting your @$$ kicked
Brother John
Senior Master
I do, and you're scary. No, but really, your line of work takes a level of courage and daring that is uncomon today.
Bingo dude. Van Damme (and his ilk) and NHB fighting have made people think that they KNOW what a street fight is really like, while in actuality... it's NOT like that.
"Wearing the guy down" is not sensible, or based on experience... I'd say.
Your Brother
John
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