Chow is in lineage of EPK????

[GAB]

Hi Doc,

With all due respects Doc...

Everyone has a lineage, whether you like it or not, it is still your lineage. Ancestry is the term you are looking for.

You need to stick with the definitions as they are, not make them up to fit into your own desires...

Ed Parker borrowed and used what he learned from others, Yes he made up a fine system and called it American.

But you still go back to your "roots" don't you???

So should others that have followed in the paths of Giants. It is not like we are talking the "Phoenix" here.

My thoughts...

Regards, Gary

As an American holding fast to the American Culture against the forces of what seems to be an avalanche of muti-culturalism, I don't think the term "lineage" has much meaning in our culture. Lineage is just another word for "pedigree." We American's are "mongrels" who focus on getting the job done, and if you can do that, nobody cares about your "pedigree" or lineage. "Lineage is a European (bloodline), and Japanese (the WAY you do) invention that places great emphasis on whom you were born to, where you come from, or that your "teacher lineage" proves you know the "correct" WAY something is supposed to be done.

Lineage was never an issue for Emperado, Parker, or even Chow. Why? because they could knock you on your can, and that makes "pedegree" and "lineage" moot in a fighting art. For other more cultural based disciplines whose emphasis lies elsewhere wrapped in their rituals of bowing, titles, extreme codes of honor, and grunts of admonition, that may be a different story.

In America its not about pedegree or lineage, but simply a matter of history. Not who your parents were but who you are. When you examine history, many have a place in the telling of how things came to pass, but lineage? No! The many faces of Ed Parker's own brand of Kenpo began with him, and although Chow is a part of his and all of our Kenpo history (and Mitose too), The only person upstream in my Kenpo teaching was Ed Parker Sr.

If you insist on using the word "lineage," add "teacher" in front of it and then it begins to make more sense. Talk about how who taught you and who taught them, etc. Otherwise you're just talking "pedegree" as if that somehow makes someone legitimate if their pedegree is correct. Here's a flash. The majority of Ed Parker's black belts over his lifetime sucked. So much for "lineage."

Let's see now, I'm in every volume of Infinite Insights, I'm in the Parker videos, I have my diplomas including that last 7th, I ran the IKC for 12 years and wrote the rules book, and oh yes, I'm listed as first generation on the one and only family tree published by Ed Parker. Does that make me acceptable? For some, no. For others maybe, but accept me or not on my own knowledge and ability. This is America and I wouldn't have it any other way.

 

[Kenpohermit]

>>Here's a flash. The majority of Ed Parker's black belts over his lifetime sucked. So much for "lineage."<<

Which one's didnt suck so I know where to go to learn the "American Kenpo"
System from the founder's non-sucky black belt instructors?


>>but accept me or not on my own knowledge and ability. This is America and I wouldn't have it any other way.<<

I agree "results" are one of the great things about American Kenpo rather then rely on lineage, etc. Just kind of funny and sad at the same time when
it seems like it just burns some folks that American Kenpo is a system that holds its own yet does not come from the mystical world of asian masters and secret passed down densho scrolls, but rather the genius of Mr. Parker and his result driven practical, scientific system. I guess they feel cheated that they are still waiting on the "Secrets" to become effective, at least they have an
anceint lineage lol :uhyeah:


Yours in Kenpo
Sami

 

[GAB]

Sami,

You are truly missing the point of what the word lineage means.

Take for example the word "Kenpo". That in it's self will give you a clue as to the lineage.

American should give you a clue.

The two put together should also give you some information as to what it is.

Based on the information gathered in the above, you now know the lineage.

It came from Hawaii...which got it from Japan, Okinawa etc.

There is the lineage no matter if you fail to see it, it is still there...

Regards, Gary






I agree "results" are one of the great things about American Kenpo rather then rely on lineage, etc. Just kind of funny and sad at the same time when
it seems like it just burns some folks that American Kenpo is a system that holds its own yet does not come from the mystical world of asian masters and secret passed down densho scrolls, but rather the genius of Mr. Parker and his result driven practical, scientific system. I guess they feel cheated that they are still waiting on the "Secrets" to become effective, at least they have an
anceint lineage lol :uhyeah:


Yours in Kenpo
Sami[/QUOTE]

 

[The Kai]

In term of lineage, I think we have to take the normal process of evolution into account.

While the Model T, may be a direct ancestor of the car I drive now, I don't really brag that "This baby is from the Model T". All the arts have changed, even the traditional ones
Like it or not the 60-70's were kind of a Plaezoic era for the Martial Arts, find your history there

 

[distalero]

...In America its not about pedegree or lineage, but simply a matter of history. Not who your parents were but who you are...

Just a technical point, but you would have to be from one of two general social classes to even say this. The "answer" from the class that wouldn't agree would be to politely smile. This class, by the way, will never have a need to learn the MA. :supcool:

 

[rmcrobertson]

Uh-oh, I think I agree. A copy of "The American Adam," goes out to the "Distalero..."

History always matters. Part of our problem is that we persistently try to moosh history together with a hunt for Dad...a very restrictive, phallogocentric (the dick, the word, the center) version of history and our relation to it.

Mr. Chow is in there, direct line. Mr. Parker did something new with what he'd learned, at a specific time and place in the tangle of social reality. We might want to deal with the reality that a) we can't do what Mr. Parker did just because we wish we could; b) the history of kenpo, like the history of all martial arts, is a tangle.

In point of fact, we have what the late Edward Said called a, "filiative," relation with folks like Mr. Chow.

 

[Doc]

Just a technical point, but you would have to be from one of two general social classes to even say this. The "answer" from the class that wouldn't agree would be to politely smile. This class, by the way, will never have a need to learn the MA. :supcool:

Funny. Obsurd but funny.

 

[Kenpohermit]

>>Sami, You are truly missing the point of what the word lineage means.<<

I have a simple question for you Gab, do you study "American Kenpo" ?

The reason I ask is that if you did you would see that this system is unique it is not
the same as Mitose's "Ryu ha" ... Its not the same as Chow's "Kara-ho"...Just as when
someone CREATES there own system the lineage for that system starts with them. Other wise I will trace American Kenpo's lineage to Uoogdog the Caveman who created the pimp slap check.

You keep saying there is a lineage even if I dont want to admit to it. Well, tell me exactly what that lineage is, Id like to see where you END the lineage and remember Lineage is one thing and historical influences are another. Or are you saying Proffessor Chow was the founder of American Kenpo?


Respectfully
Sami

 

[Bill Lear]

Norbert Kitz invented the first electronic calculator (Called the Anita Mk VII). I guess he should also be given credit for inventing modern day personal computers. Just look at the similarities:

How different does something have to be before it qualifies as something new or different? When is this cycle of taking the credit for someone else's work going to end? Mr. Parker is the father of American Kenpo. Mr. Chow was his teacher, not his pilot.

 

[The Kai]

Additionaly most of the Kenpo history is purely speculative before Mitose/Chow. Roots or lineage would seem to signify a traceable history at the least.

 

[Seabrook]

Norbert Kitz invented the first electronic calculator (Called the Anita Mk VII). I guess he should also be given credit for inventing modern day personal computers. Just look at the similarities:

How different does something have to be before it qualifies as something new or different? When is this cycle of taking the credit for someone else's work going to end? Mr. Parker is the father of American Kenpo. Mr. Chow was his teacher, not his pilot.

Right on Billy!

Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com

 

[distalero]

Funny. Obsurd but funny.

That class I referred to would have politely drawn me out (and privately agreed) with something like "Do you really think so?", rather than respond with the above.
So...........do you really think so? In the interests of communication (always the real topic here even when it's being done blindly), why not state why you think it's "obsurd but funny". This always sounds more confident.
The other comment I'd make is that mcrobertson's reference to a BOOK about the subject underscores the distance and distinction from our classes and the one I was referring to.

 

[GAB]

Right on Billy!

Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com

Thank you Bill Lear. You have given a very good picture of what we are talking about.

When you study American history that is what you are taught, when you study World history that is what you are taught.

Knowledge is awsome, lack of it is ignorance...

Books are stepping stones through time, put them together and and you have a path, remove one and you have lost knowledge that has to be gathered by gifted persons, then they will put the story back for you based on their expert position.

Ed Parker is just one piece of the puzzle simple as that...Towards the end also if you want to go there...

Read his book Kenpo Karate, Secrets of Chinese Karate, The Zen of Kenpo and Ed Parkers Encyclopedia of Kenpo (written and finished by his son).

Then read the Infinite Insights series...

Very similar to Elementary school, Junior High, High school and then on to College.

It started in Hawaii for Ed Parker and it ended in Hawaii. Very Ironic in my opinion. The information he deleted was all not of his choosing, he was pushed by a higher power, so he followed in those foot steps as well...

Regards, Gary

Ps. The Universal Pattern is another Example... It would be very enlightening (bulb just turned on as in shed light on the subject) if you had not studied Spanish Fencing on prior occasion...Edit added...

 

[rmcrobertson]

Since this particular thread happens to be about a theoretical concept--history and the shape of kenpo's past--I'm not sure I see what's so damn odd about citing a BOOK that's about Americans' view of themselves in relation to history.

One of the points that particular book makes, in fact, is that much of our national thought continues to be shaped as a sort of tense relation to the European past, in which we want to claim both strong, direct ties to that past and announce our absolute break from it.

Hm. Does that maybe look familiar?

However, I still think that our real relation with the past is a lot more tangled than simply finding out who Daddy was.

 

[GAB]

Uh-oh, I think I agree. A copy of "The American Adam," goes out to the "Distalero..."

History always matters. Part of our problem is that we persistently try to moosh history together with a hunt for Dad...a very restrictive, phallogocentric (the dick, the word, the center) version of history and our relation to it.

Mr. Chow is in there, direct line. Mr. Parker did something new with what he'd learned, at a specific time and place in the tangle of social reality. We might want to deal with the reality that a) we can't do what Mr. Parker did just because we wish we could; b) the history of kenpo, like the history of all martial arts, is a tangle.

In point of fact, we have what the late Edward Said called a, "filiative," relation with folks like Mr. Chow.

Hi Mcrobertson,

You are very interesting to read, about your 25th or 10th or 5th post you continue to relate to the (Peter principel if you will allow that entry)...
What is the reason for this??? If I may be so bold to ask???

The continuous talk down to routine, pretty sad for a person who is supposed to be so knowledgable in the realm of English and PHD stuff...

I have to ask myself are you really? Or are you just very quick with Wikipedia and other sources of information...

I for one would certainly like to talk to you one on one and have no other form of information other than what is captured within, and draw from your vast pool of knowledge...

Similar to a spell check I would say... Some use it some don't...

Based on your information and your narrow view of the world (yes in your own way very narrow) I would be delighted to an evening or daytime discussion while I will be down in your neck of the woods sometime in the near future.


Regards, Gary

Ps I edited this to remove an assumption from times past...Since posting this I looked at your profile up date and should have E-mailed. G

 

[The Kai]

in which we want to claim both strong, direct ties to that past and announce our absolute break from it.

Is'nt this the case with alot of kenpo, we want to do what we want, yet we also want that pedigreed. Perhaps its this wavering between the two camps that gives kenpo it's fractious history.

To say Parker was just a piece of a puzzle is kinda rude to a man who made a hugh contribution to the art, he was a central piece whether you want to admit it or not....

A Book is not so much a stepping stone, but just a stone. Put them together you might have a path or a wall. Or you might imagine the wall was a path. Predisposition colors our ability to see the past really

 

[distalero]

It's not odd. I was pointing out that it's representative. If The American Adam made a referrence to this country's ruling class (I haven't read it so I have to rely on you for this......another aspect of my point), then to that extent my comment was that you and I have to point to some 3rd party reference (The American Adam), and rely on it's accuracy. This is distance; distance from a social (and political) reality, that in fact has affected my life quite directly (military experience...and this is a MA site), and affects yours, and that was being ignored because of that by-now-tiresome aspect of American myth. Hell, even the myth is being dismantled lately. But hey, my original comment was a "technical point", to quote myself, and a bit of a left (gasp) hand turn off the topic, so no big deal.

Since this particular thread happens to be about a theoretical concept--history and the shape of kenpo's past--I'm not sure I see what's so damn odd about citing a BOOK that's about Americans' view of themselves in relation to history.

One of the points that particular book makes, in fact, is that much of our national thought continues to be shaped as a sort of tense relation to the European past, in which we want to claim both strong, direct ties to that past and announce our absolute break from it.

Hm. Does that maybe look familiar?

However, I still think that our real relation with the past is a lot more tangled than simply finding out who Daddy was.

 

[GAB]

in which we want to claim both strong, direct ties to that past and announce our absolute break from it.

Is'nt this the case with alot of kenpo, we want to do what we want, yet we also want that pedigreed. Perhaps its this wavering between the two camps that gives kenpo it's fractious history.

To say Parker was just a piece of a puzzle is kinda rude to a man who made a hugh contribution to the art, he was a central piece whether you want to admit it or not....

A Book is not so much a stepping stone, but just a stone. Put them together you might have a path or a wall. Or you might imagine the wall was a path. Predisposition colors our ability to see the past really

Kai,

It is not rude at all, what is rude is this thread, especially when you consider the amount of EPAK people compared to the rest of the practioner's of the various arts that are out in the world.

This board is EPAK prone and so are others...

The nice thing about this board is the ability for all to participate. Discuss and review and read others thoughts. Unlike other boards that are so narrow and self inflating, they don't know the truth when it hits them in the face.

They will expunge you and delete your threads and condem you to heresy...

Funny if you ask me. I own this board so therfore I am able to continue my ignorance and condem you and spread untruths etc...Please, we don't want facts or other information we just want to say what our elders tell us...

Please I am not being rude and if you think so that is a problem on your own take on things...

Jigsaw puzzle still, big piece or small makes no difference. In the world of Martial arts if you were writing a book on it Kenpo would be in the last chapter and pretty close to the end of the chapter to say the least...

In America it is very big. Tracy Kenpo has more schools or did have. (under one thumb) Sijo Emperado has more schools (under one thumb).

Remember now EPAK is very splintered, many takes on the various art form...But that is what Ed Parker wanted. The King is dead. Long live the King....

Go to places with 10,000 years of culture and then you will understand where I am coming from, visit 40 other countries and then we can talk about History of the USA and when you have maybe, just maybe, you will have a little more humbleness...

Not that I am that humble in my thoughts, but I am very well travled and read and therefore I am prone to my own thoughts also...

I read another post that said "this is an EPAK discussion thread".

So does that mean it is the "follow the elders of the board routine"????

I am not thinking so...Just a piece of the MartialTalk puzzle, big or small, still just a piece...

Regards, Gary

 

[The Kai]

America is a very young country, our entire history as the usa is no older than some of the garages in englad!

However, EPAK'ist or not he did hab=ve a major impact on the arts.
Kenpo has a rather speculative hisory much beforetyhe 1940's, so as far as this era being the last chapter. Lets instead say the only chapter that is verifieable?
Todd

 

[Bill Lear]

Thank you Bill Lear. You have given a very good picture of what we are talking about.

You're welcome. :asian:

When you study American history that is what you are taught, when you study World history that is what you are taught.

I agree. We are talking about "American Kenpo's History" not the history of "Kenpo/Kempo".

Books are stepping stones through time, put them together and and you have a path, remove one and you have lost knowledge that has to be gathered by gifted persons, then they will put the story back for you based on their expert position.

Not all books are accurate. Sometimes the truth is a little different and the books need to be revised. Mr. Parker was a black belt in Judo before he studied under William K. S. Chow. Maybe we should include his Judo teacher in the lineage of American Kenpo.

Ed Parker is just one piece of the puzzle simple as that...Towards the end also if you want to go there...

We aren't talking about a puzzle. Nor, are we discussing THE BIGGER PICTURE of Kenpo/Kempo. We are talking about "AMERICAN KENPO". American Kenpo is Mr. Parker's creation, period.

Read his book Kenpo Karate, Secrets of Chinese Karate, The Zen of Kenpo and Ed Parkers Encyclopedia of Kenpo (written and finished by his son).

Then read the Infinite Insights series...

I have read them all. Thanks.

"It was William K.S. Chow who cultivated the seed of American Kenpo."
(Excerpted from Ed Parker's Infinite Insight Into Kenpo - Volume I)

Interesting that he said this in his work. Is the tree a product of the seed or the farmer? Could the tree exist without the farmer? And, if the seed were planted somewhere else, by someone else would it still be the same kind of tree?

Very similar to Elementary school, Junior High, High school and then on to College.

You forgot to mention Kenpo Karate - Law of the Fist and the Empty Hand. I guess that would be Pre-School?

It started in Hawaii for Ed Parker and it ended in Hawaii. Very Ironic in my opinion. The information he deleted was all not of his choosing, he was pushed by a higher power, so he followed in those foot steps as well...

Please elaborate on this. What "higher power" pushed him? Is it your opinion that he simply deleted information or did he add things as well? What footsteps did he follow in?

Ps. The Universal Pattern is another Example... It would be very enlightening (bulb just turned on as in shed light on the subject) if you had not studied Spanish Fencing on prior occasion...Edit added...

The idea conveyed by each of the diagrams is similar, but not the same. The patterns are also different.