Chow is in lineage of EPK????

[teej]

I stand completely corrected and again apologize publicly to Mr. Roberts. As he is a brother in Kenpo, this would be family bickering instead of a neighbor.

I have not seen his posts enough to understand him. Of course sometimes it is hard to detect emotions and intent from reading words.

Again, I am sorry if I offended you personally, in fact, I think I am done with this lineage topic for now. It seems to have its wheels spinning.

I do credit and thank all participants as this has caused me to do a lot of research, and touch base with some old and new friends.

Your brother in Kenpo
Teej

 

[Doc]

Originally posted by Michael Billings
... good to hear from you again with your history of having been there at the time.

I appreciate it.
-Michael

One day we have got to get together so I can hear some of your stories as well. I'm sure you have plenty.

 

[rmcrobertson]

Gee, you miss so much when you spend the afternoon teaching and training.

Um...first off, please re-read the posts. Several people, teej included, argued that Mr. Chow did not belong in the, "lineage," of American kenpo. To me, that's about like saying that Africa doesn't belong is the lineage of contemporary human beings, whose ancestors all evolved in Africa.

And Michael, sorry, but could we please leave what you or others fantasize to be my personality out of it? I avoid commenting upon the personalites of people I've never met in these forums, and I would really rather appreciate the same courtesy. Argue with the damn ideas; given the silly stuff I write, nobody will have to wait long to find arguable things.

The meat of what I argued was this: a) this fascination with "lineage," is oedipal, in Freud's and Harold Bloom's terms; b) attempts to airbrush certain people out of our evolutionary history reflect our present-day fantasies and our present-day politics; c) kenpo history would better be described as something else--another good term, "rhizome," comes from Deleuze and Guattari.

On another note, teej, I didn't list my training and all because a) it ain't all that big a deal, and b) I didn't see what it had to do with anything, and c) well frankly, it's personal.

You might check other threads--very often I get described (which just strikes me as really, really weird) as a hide-bound kenpo traditionalist, whatever the heck that means.

Oh, the aikido thing? read John Stephens' bio of Mr. Ueshiba, "Abundant Peace"--apparently the avatar of peaceful resolution was a considerable hellraiser in his youth, and if Stephens is to be trusted, made his fundamental breakthroughs while he was (with a small group of Japanese fascists) invading China, around 1928. Stephens also emphasizes, and it makes sense, that the logic of sword and spear are fundamental to aikido's theory and practice.

 

[MisterMike]

Oh, the aikido thing? read John Stephens' bio of Mr. Ueshiba, "Abundant Peace"--apparently the avatar of peaceful resolution was a considerable hellraiser in his youth, and if Stephens is to be trusted, made his fundamental breakthroughs while he was (with a small group of Japanese fascists) invading China, around 1928. Stephens also emphasizes, and it makes sense, that the logic of sword and spear are fundamental to aikido's theory and practice.

Fascists? Where do you come off? I believe Ueshiba went through China, not to invade it, but to eventually get to Mongolia where he wanted to establish a new nation based on spirituality and peace. He was captured in China and nearly killed, and his return to Japan had to be negotiated.

As for swords and spears, well, when Japan essentially outlawed them, that's where empty hand arts that were based on them came to be. Maybe Kenpoists should refrain from the "handsword"?

I still see nothing illegal and "not so nice." I also think Stevens wrote too many books.

Anyways...I'll let this get back to topic of "Kenpo Lineage"

 

[rmcrobertson]

Sorry, no. The peace came later. According to Stephens, who studied personally with the man he referred to as, "O-Sensei," "Japanese fascist," is pretty much the correct term. Even if it were not, how would you like it if he'd come to the US with plans to set up an independant republic devoted to peace and freedom in, say, Oregon? Mongolia was not his country; he had no business truckin' off there to set up a darn thing.

Apparently the--let's say, "national"--interests that drew Mr. Ueshibaa to China did not stop in 1928. I would refer you to Peter Goldberg's, "Aikido and Nationalism," in "Aikido Journal," Vol. 26, no. 3 (1999), 36-38, which notes that, "The gestation period of aikido...lasted for about thirty years, and during the development of his martial art, Morehei Ueshiba was strongly supported by the Japanese Imperial Navy and especially by a very high ranking officer, Admiral Isamu Takeshita." This in the period immediately preceding World War II, I might add; Goldberg goes on to note, tactfully, that Ueshiba was, "highly unlikely," not to have been tangled up in Japanese nationalism, given his background and associates.

It is also worth noting that apparently the Omoto religion of which Mr. Ueshiba was a devotee, if I recall correctly, ended up having some ties with that weird group that nerve-gassed a couple of Tokyo subways a few years back...

And of course, I still think Donn Draeger's explanations of the ways that Buddhism and martial arts contributed to Japanese fascism is dead on...

I'm afraid you are letting your dislike for what you conceive to be MY politics distort your reason, in this case. Among other things, if you'll re-read what I wrote, I was pointing out that far from aikido's being some purely-touchy-feely-peace-love-and-vegetarian-cooking-sweetnessfest, its history and its core theories rested on weapon arts. I'd have thought, given your statements elsewhere about gun control, that you'd find that a congenial argument.

I'm being long-winded about this (well, beyond the fact that it seems I AM long-winded) because the air-brushing of history is very much the issue, as I see it, in the question of whether Mr. Chow belongs in the, "lineage," of American kenpo. Similarly the attempts that we often read to remove Mr. Mitose from that line of descent--or at least to make excuses for his getting flung in the can for conspiracy to commit murder--help sanitize the past. And in doing that, they blind us to what's going on more recently--like Mr. Parker's awarding that murdering bastard Pinochet a black belt (less than ten years after the military coup and the torture-murders of thousands in Chile!), or the way that martial arts always attract a certain number of right-wing survivalist nutballs.

All martial arts have some roots in ugliness, as far as I know. Look at the way tae kwon do and tang soo do started out as explicitly national--and to some extent racist--arts. Look at the way some hapkido practitioners play up the supposed Imperial origins of that art. And look at the ways that some of what apparently gave Mr. Parker a chunk of his originally-ripe reputation in the martial arts community (something that it seems to me is still with us, by the way) had to do with his democratization of arts that used to be held in quasi-secret, often within families and crime organizations, and always among men only...

Thanks for the discussion.

 

[MisterMike]

To quote:

invading China

..an action he never partook, nor any type under the authority of the Japanese military.

Also, with quotes referring to his abilities to make people fall down without touching them, I'd question the validity or context to which he had ties to these senior Admirals.

He studied Budo, as did most every practitioner in Japan at the time, but it later became his vehicle to peace.

Japan's samurai era is what we have to thank for a lot of our arts' origins. I see you're not proud of it, but I don't see a reason for the harshness.

 

[Brian Jones]

I think a lot of it comes from the way the pollis worded. It doesn't say should William chow be listed in Ed Parker's (martial Art ) lineage. It says should Chow be lsited in American Kenpo's lineage. To me that is a little different. American Kenpo is Ed Parker's art. As I said before did he learn from Chow and other's? Absolutley. But did he learn Americna Kenpo from them? not exaclty.
Sure it's a picky point and probably not one worth even arguing. Although I voted no, that's probably me reading too much into the original question. We should recognize those who came before us (lineage or history or those who trained beside us), but we are better served looking toward the future and how we can contribute to the art.

 

[Doc]

Although I lean heavily toward rmrobertson's point of view, (and he is indeed on point of some rather indepth aspects of his post), I think the argument hinges on significant sematical and cultural interpretations of the question(s) implied by the wording of the poll itself.

Perhaps an interesting discussion could begin regarding the distinctions, culturally and otherwise, between a "heritage," a "lineage," and the "origin" of a martial art.

 

[rmcrobertson]

Well, the old saw is that those who forget the past are condemned to repeat it. And then too, "the past," is what this thread's about.

Michael, again, I don't know what else to call it but, "invasion," when you leave your country and move to another with the express purpose of getting rid of their present government and establishing one you like.

Again, I'd suggest reading your own post:

"I believe Ueshiba went through China, not to invade it, but to eventually get to Mongolia where he wanted to establish a new nation based on spirituality and peace. He was captured in China and nearly killed, and his return to Japan had to be negotiated."

What was there to "negotiate," if not the question of his being in the country? Why'd he get captured and nearly killed, if he wasn't up to anything? Who exactly asked him, "Hey pal, come on over and set up a new nation in our country?"

You don't find it in any way--oddish--that precisely at the time the Japanese were making more and more open moves against China, all of a sudden here's Morehei Ueshiba, wading in from Japan, "to establish a new nation," in part of soverign China?

So you're telling us that both Stephens and Goldberg have no idea what they're talking about? Odd. Again, the former was a personal student, if memory serves; the latter presently teaches at Hiroshima University and has been in aikido somewhere around thirty years.

I'd be very interested to know exactly what facts, authorities or personal conversations you're using here. I keep writing, "Well, if you look at this book," and I give quotes; I keep noting events, associations, etc., and naming names...you just keep saying, "No, that's ridiculous." OK, if it is and you can show why the authors I've cited are wrong, or the events didn't happen, great. I'd be interested in learning more--but what the heck are you basing your claims on?

I'd also suggest taking a look, for background, at Donn F. Draeger, "Modern Bujutsu and Budo," vol. 3 of, "The Martial Arts and Ways of Japan," (New York and Tokyo: Weatherhill, 1996), with particular reference to the discussion titled, "The Showa Era," pages 41-52 in chapter 2, "The Road to War and Its Aftermath." I'm wrong about all sorts of things, of course, but if you want to take on Draeger's facts and argument, you best bring your lunch.

"Showa," means, "radiant peace," apparently. It is the name for the era of the rise of Japanese militarism and nationalism, during which rightists moved the country into Manchuria, organized military assassinations of political leaders at home who supported democratic reform, wrote documents such as the 1930 one Draeger cites from the Black Dragon society, "We shall carry out the spirit of the Imperial Rescript to Soldiers and Sailors and stimulate a martial spirit by working toward the goal of a nation in arms," and ended up as part of the Axis along with Hitler's Germany and Mussolini's Italy in WWII. What the hell is THAT, if not fascism?

As for the claim that I am somehow ashamed of the history of martial arts--nooo, I simply have this thing about understanding actual facts and historical realities. Seems to me that one might be all the prouder of what the arts have come to mean to so many, given their background. Knowing that Custer was a murdering SOB and an irresponsible leader who finally got what he'd deserved for quite some time does not make less proud of my country--it makes me glad I live somewhere we don't lie about our past nearly so much.

I'm afraid that I don't understand why you're arguing this, either. Could you explain a bit more, so I'll understand?

Thanks for the conversation.

 

[MisterMike]

The whole reason this came up is I'm just a little puzzled as to how you've come to the conclusion that Ueshiba was a militant fascist who tried to invade China and then miraculously turned himself around and fought for world peace. Invasion involves agression, which Ueshiba had no intent on. From what I've read, he wasn't armed.

I'm also familiar with Dreager's works as he is in my martial art lineage. But some of the things you reference have nothing to do with Ueshiba's intent. Might be where he came from, and granted we all go through some formative stages in life, but the 180 degrees that you imply he would make most people's heads spin.

It just doesn't add up to call him a fascist, and you're about the first person to call Ueshiba those terms in spite of 1.5 million Aikido practitioners who just haven't quite picked up on your profound insight. I know the same names and the same books, and I can't bring myself to the same conclusion about him.

By the way, it doesn't take a lot to get arrested and jailed/killed in China today, nevermind in the 1920's. Just open a Bible. Oh yeah, doesn't Kenpo have some roots there? I also presume he wasn't going to take over a country with ~12 men. Must be some hidden Parker technique I haven't seen yet. More like he was interested in going to a place where his ideas might be accepted and possibly adopted? It's like saying our Italian immigrants have no place in politics. I just don't buy he was setting up base camp so the Japanese Imperial Army could come "wading" in.

The fact you compare the squeaky-cleanness of Parker Kenpo history to that of Aikido as not on par seems to show you've only researched one of them or are a tad biased. Of course, we all know how most of the Kenpo folk are humble. Especially in the Tatum line.

Fact is, a majority of our arts eventually go back to the same place. When you choose to trace back Aikido until you hit the Showa period while stopping at Chow for Kenpo really speaks volumes.

So you want to cut this short? Why don't you come to a conclusion on what Aikido came from. Or is Japan "lieing about its past?" Was Aikido born out of fascism, or was it Ueshiba's vision for teaching peace and harmony to the world? You make a statement about someone and then have to ask why are we discussing this?

 

[rmcrobertson]

Oh, for crying out loud. The man went off to China to found some new state with members of a right-wing, quasi-secret society at a time when right-wing, quasi-secret societies were taking over Japan; there is example after example of his being advanced in his career from 1928 on by high-ranking Japanese military officers.

You've offered no evidence, no references, no cited facts of any kind, despite repeated simple requests. You've simply chosen to keep claiming that I must not know what I'm talking about, or am only using one source, despite my having mentioned, "Aikido Journal," Stevens' bio, and one of Draeger's books. Are you even familiar with Draeger's discussion of the intimate ties connecting martial arts, and Buddhism, to Japanese militarism?

Instead, you've chosen to make really peculiar claims about what I've written. How in the hell you could read what I wrote as asserting the, "squeaky-cleanness of Parker Kenpo history," is way past me. Did you simply miss my comments about James Mitose? about William Chow's vital place in the "lineage," of American kenpo? about the moral quality of awarding a murdering general who directed a coup against a democratically-elected government a black belt?

I shall try to pass over your comments about, "the Tatum line," more or less in silence. I will note that Mr. Tatum does not deserve your discourtesy even in the event that everything I wrote was just plain silly--and I'm still waiting for you to offer a few facts and references to go with your gratuitous insults. But whether or not you recognize it, you owe an apology.

Apparently I have also somehow become responsible for the oppression of Christians in China. Why I would need to tell you this I can but barely imagine, but gee, I'm kinda opposed to religious persecution. I guess it's just that I also object when, say, Christians in Bosnia start ethnically cleansing Muslims. However, I hardly think that you caused that atrocity.

While we're on the subject of Christianity and in answer to your question, well, yes, I had thought--silly me!--that the hope of religion was the hope of profound change. Or did I get the point of that New Testament story of Saul on the road to Tarsus wrong somehow? Did I screw up John Bunyan's point in his great work, "Grace Abounding to the Chief of Sinners?" The abrupt conversion of the wicked is perhaps the oldest trope in Christianity.

It is also one of the central hopes that martial arts holds out--the hope of change--or have I got that one wrong too? Had I been less distracted by your pointless invective, I might have pointed out earlier that for Stevens, Mr. Ueshiba took his experience in China as precisely the 180-degree revolution, the conversion experience, that you deride.

Incidentally, I said nothing about Ueshiba's being in collusion with the Japanese Army in China. I said that he was part of a nut-cult's attempt to go take over Mongolia (!); if it helps you balance on the left, this is perfectly comparable to, say, Samuel Taylor Coleridge's attempt to get a buncha girls to run off to American with him, and found a utopian commune on the banks of the Susquehanna river.

Oh yes. Yes, it's my understanding that some parts of Japanese culture still lie like hell about Japan's history. You might find it instructive to check up on some of the many articles I've seen on the weird representations of WWII in some history classes, or perhaps the little foofaraw of a couple of years ago, when the Japanese trade minister gave a big speech and announced that all the Korean women forced to work as whores by the Army really had things pretty good--why, we helped those women!--and anyway, who knows why anybody would make a big fuss about 50,000 or so women forced into sexual slavery...and no, they are very far from being unique.

Now I dunno what exactly provoked, Michael, but I will not be responding again until you recover some manners.

 

[Michael Billings]

Please, keep the conversation on topic..

-Michael Billings
-MT Moderator-

 

[pete]

i think i'll be heading over to the aikido forum, just for kicks...

 

[MisterMike]

Fine. Thanks for the ummm...diatribe. We're all better because of it now.

 

[rmcrobertson]

Now that a bit of the dust has dropped, let me simply note that my point was this: all the martial arts, kenpo most certainly included, have some uglies in their history. I think it is pertinent to note this--which, in reference to aikido, I originally did merely in an aside--in the context of Mr. Chow's place in American kenpo's history, because I think it is important that we do not airbrush out the parts of the "lineage," of which we do not approve.

This is from George Leonard's spiritsite website, and his bio of Mr. Ueshiba:

"Never daunted in his quest, Morihei Ueshiba then gave himself heart and soul to another charismatic but questionable character, Onisaburo Deguchi, founder and guru of Ornoto-Kyo, a cultlike religion that at one time had several million followers in Japan. In 1924, Onisaburo, Morihei, and a few other Omoto-Kyo followers left Japan bound on a secret expedition to the Chinese mainland. Their plan was to raise an army, foment a revolution, and take over Mongolia for Japan. After several battles, Onisaburol’s group was captured, put in irons, and threatened with execution. The Chinese authorities, unwilling to provoke the Japanese, government, finally issued a reprieve and the conspirators were released into the custody of the local Japanese consul."

I'm not sure what source material he's using. It may be that he's gone back to Stevens' biography. It does seem clear that a) Leonard can't spell much, b) I had the dates slightly wrong; 1924, not 1927. This might have some relation to the question of the rise of Japanese militarism.

I am going to continue to poke around on the Net; in the event I've got it hopelessly wrong and none of this material can be trusted, I will of course post to that effect.

As for Mr. Chow, perhaps it might be useful to shift towards a discussion of a) precisely what he left in American kenpo; b) precisely what leads people to absolutely separate him out.

Thank you.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Originally posted by rmcrobertson
Now that a bit of the dust has dropped, let me simply note that my point was this: all the martial arts, kenpo most certainly included, have some uglies in their history. I think it is pertinent to note this--which, in reference to aikido, I originally did merely in an aside--in the context of Mr. Chow's place in American kenpo's history, because I think it is important that we do not airbrush out the parts of the "lineage," of which we do not approve.

This is from George Leonard's spiritsite website, and his bio of Mr. Ueshiba:

"Never daunted in his quest, Morihei Ueshiba then gave himself heart and soul to another charismatic but questionable character, Onisaburo Deguchi, founder and guru of Ornoto-Kyo, a cultlike religion that at one time had several million followers in Japan. In 1924, Onisaburo, Morihei, and a few other Omoto-Kyo followers left Japan bound on a secret expedition to the Chinese mainland. Their plan was to raise an army, foment a revolution, and take over Mongolia for Japan. After several battles, Onisaburol’s group was captured, put in irons, and threatened with execution. The Chinese authorities, unwilling to provoke the Japanese, government, finally issued a reprieve and the conspirators were released into the custody of the local Japanese consul."

I'm not sure what source material he's using. It may be that he's gone back to Stevens' biography. It does seem clear that a) Leonard can't spell much, b) I had the dates slightly wrong; 1924, not 1927. This might have some relation to the question of the rise of Japanese militarism.

I am going to continue to poke around on the Net; in the event I've got it hopelessly wrong and none of this material can be trusted, I will of course post to that effect.

As for Mr. Chow, perhaps it might be useful to shift towards a discussion of a) precisely what he left in American kenpo; b) precisely what leads people to absolutely separate him out.

Thank you.

Robert,
You have to understand that it was not hard for The japanese to see the folly in allowing themselves to be completely industrialized and losing the old ways. They were proven right witht the Smoot/Hawley Tarrif. Once the depression hit a nation completly dependant on trade with the west was left to starve. My point is that of course little cults are going to pop up to try to either stave off the evil and /or conquer others. The time was right and the japanese government was likely high on the newly invented(by the japanese) crystal meth. But they had public sentiment and not a whole lotta choices so why shouldn't they join the axis powers? Unfortunantly they were a spartan society that bit off more than it could chew.
Sean

 

[Michael Billings]

Let's try this again -

Please, keep the conversation on topic..

-Michael Billings
-MT Moderator-

 

[Seig]

I feel the Professor Chow does not belong in the American Kenpo lineage, period. Before you start foaming at the mouth, let me explain. If Professor Chow is in the American Kenpo lineage above SGM Parker, then how can SGM Parker be credited as our founder?

 

[CoolKempoDude]

Originally posted by Seig
If Professor Chow is in the American Kenpo lineage above SGM Parker, then how can SGM Parker be credited as our founder?

the reason why Chow is in AK lineage because he was EP's teacher. That is the bottom line.

i don't know how many MA teachers EP had but if his teachers want to be acknowledged in AK lineage. I don't see anything wrong with it.

it is good to know i learn from this person and then i invent this or that.

 

[teej]

Heritage-- something transmitted by or acquired from a predecessor.

Lineage-- a group of individuals tracing descent from a common ancestor; especially: a group of persons whose common ancestor is REGARDED AS ITS FOUNDER.

Origin -- rise, beginning, or derivation from a source.


Can someone define in words the difference between "Kenpo" and "American Kenpo"? My definitions in my mind, seperate the two. My understanding is that the Kenpo William Chow taught Ed Parker, and the American Kenpo we have learned from Ed Parkers' American Kenpo are distinctly different.

I believe the original post asked (does anyone remember the original poat at this point?) if William Chow had a place in AK (American Kenpo) History or Lineage?

With that, Professor Chow definitely has a respected place in American Kenpo heritage/history.

The Lineage of descent of American Kenpo starts with Edmund Parker, the founder. The "origin" of American Kenpo is from Ed Parker. SGM Parker in the founder. Therefore, as I tried to explain before and I concur with Seig, Professor Chow is not in the American Kenpo "lineage". He is in the "heritage" and or "history"
of AK. In fact, he is in the "heritage/history" of all sub-systems of Kenpo, but not their Lineage. (the lineage trace starts with each sub systems founder)

Yours in Kenpo,
Teej